<p>Anyone knows whether outside scholarships, such as the National Merit or privately funded, count in the % of students receiving FA? I recalled my D's NM was administered through the FA office. </p>
<p>I was surprised to note that Amherst's website now indicates 66% of students on FA. The number last year was 58%. A jump of eight percent would mean that FA is extended to more than 80% of the incoming stduents. Perhaps that signifies more student from the middle class?</p>
<p>While I totally agree with the sentiment that "real friends accommodate one another" and "expensive dinners" are never needed, I think some poster's, carrying their own baggage, take every opportunity to criticize others as selfish and insensitive.</p>
<p>My son, who is one of the most sensitive, generous and inclusive kids around, has been in situations where he suggests going somewhere to eat (nothing fancy, just above street vendor or sandwich) and some act offended that he would suggest such - saying they "can't afford it". At first my son felt guilty that he hadn't "noticed" until he began to see that these kids CHOSE to use their money on clothes, CD's, DVD's, etc. rather than food. One of these kids even has a 42 inch plasma tv in his dorm room and a wall unit of DVD's. </p>
<p>Now, I have no problem with kids who make different choices with what to do with their money - if they would rather eat peanut butter and buy DVD's - that's fine - but when they then try to "control" the group's plans by laying a guilt trip on them - that's a bit different. </p>
<p>Look around at our society - many people believe their "necessities" should be taken care of by others - government, social programs, etc. - leaving them to use their money for the newest best cell phones, designer labels, etc. </p>
<p>My son knows kids who use their campus "meal card" to shop in the campus stores rather than it's intended purpose. In fact, a few colleges we visited specifically said they do not allow freshman to purchase the "wider variety" meal cards to keep them from sacrificing nutrition for "shopping". They require freshman to buy an "unlimited meal plan" good at only the cafeteria. </p>
<p>My neighbor regularly complains about her daughter's roommate - who receives a very generous need-based financial aid package - and monthly "care packages" of very expensive clothes from mom! Is it any wonder kids might be confused?</p>
<p>"I was surprised to note that Amherst's website now indicates 66% of students on FA. The number last year was 58%. A jump of eight percent would mean that FA is extended to more than 80% of the incoming stduents. Perhaps that signifies more student from the middle class?"</p>
<p>Neither is true. As I noted, you can't trust the websites, only the Common Data Sets. Colleges manipulate data for propaganda purpsoes - they include non-degree granting programs or extension programs or "colleges of general studies", include aid from outside agencies, include merit aid from outside scholarships when agency required an income level, etc. If you want the truth, go to the Common Data Sets. </p>
<p>Amherst had 1,654 students, 768 of whom (or 46.4%) received need-based aid. It might have gone up ever so slightly last year, but in the main, there hasn't been a significant shift in several years. Where the shift is in WHO receives the aid - there are now many more Pell Grant students (17%) and fewer middle income ($40k-$92k) ones (also increases the size of the average package).</p>
<p>I'm uneducated in FA. I presume Pell grants are given to the lowest income group. If that is the case, then about 30% would fall into your middle income level. That doesn't seem to be a gross underrepresentation. Afterall, we don't really know the composition of the application pool. Perhaps this simply reflects a lower number of applicants from this income group for reasons that are outside of admission practices.</p>
<p>"For example, Barnard claims that 55% of students receive some financial aid (Harvard claims 70% despite having only 8%+ with Pell grants).</p>
<p>Again, check the Common Data Sets - neither school is even close in terms of providing need-based aid to what they imply.</p>
<p>^^ and people, remember that need-based aid includes loans. I'm thinking of some schools right now (not Ivies) that state "90% of our students receive some form of aid." Yet look at their F.A. link: many of those schools only offer Pell (max ~4K) & one other similar program with a low ceiling (of qualification & of gift). The rest is loan and/or work/study -- which is also defined as "aid." So for those 90% schools, it <em>could</em> mean (depending on the school) that 80% of the student body is borrowing and working what parents cannot afford, while 10% of the student body is receiving more generous grants, while still doing some loans & work as well.</p>
<p>Garland, I'm sorry if I misunderstood. We Barnard people are rather used to snipey comments & putdowns from some Columbians -- (a small but vocal contingent) -- so perhaps I am overly sensitive to the implication that one side of the street is better than the other, especially since I know that my d. takes classes 5 days a week at Columbia & participates in some Columbia student organizations. I assume our kids are simply different people with different personalities & interests. But I know that the issue of culture clash & class differences is quite real, even though some might not be bothered by it. Does your son play sports or is he in a fraternity? I think those factors could also play a big part in the type of social experience a kid has on a college campus.</p>
<p>No, he doesn't play sports and is not in a fraternity. He's just basically a live and let live type, and things roll off his back pretty easily. (I wish I were more like him!)</p>
<p>He has many friends at Barnard, and has taken classes there. I think both schools benefit from the relationship.</p>
<p>Mini:
Is there a dispute about the percentage of students who receive some financial aid, however inadequate that might be? I took the figures to mean that 55% of Barnard students and 70% of Harvard students receive aid, ranging from a few hundred dollars to full ride. My take was that, if the schools fail to provide adequate financial aid to a large group of students, it means that there are lots more rather than fewer students who are on restricted budgets and must watch their expenditures. </p>
<p>Epiphany: That may well be the case. I saw notices about waiving the work requirement for students on full rides so that they could participate in summer research programs but nothing was said of students whose parents had taken out loans that had to be repaid.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not really. If you go to the IPES Cool site and check comparative financial aid data,you'll find that approximately the same amount of students receive grant aid at both schools (41% at Barnard, 42% at Columbia); Barnard has a higher percentage of Pell Grant recipients (17% vs. 15%); and average institutional grant aid at Barnard is higher ($20.5K vs. $19.4K). In contrast, the stats on that site show that Harvard has 25% Pell grant recipients and average grant aid of $23.3K -- so given its urban location I don't think the stats support that assertion of being "especially committed". NYU has about the same percentage of Pell grant recipients as Columbia/Barnard (16%).</p>
<p>Anyway, don't take my word for it. Ask Mini what he thinks. ;)</p>
<p>At the school where I work, which is not an elite school and has few well-off students (though some), the students who are in the biggest financial bind are the ones who are one tick over Pell-eligible. I work in a Federal support program which aims to help retain and graduate students. One way we help them is in all aspects of FA--filling out FAFSAs, understanding SAR, dealing with the FA office, inadequate funds, etc. We also have a small amount of fed grant money we can use to help students with large gaps or loans. However, we can only distribute this money to Pell recipients. Unfortunately, it's the non-Pell grantees who usually have the big gaps. The Pell students also get the NJ TAG grants, subsidized loans, work-study, and better institutional grants. The non-Pell may get a small institutional grant and a pile of loans, plus a payment plan. these tend to be kids from families who are one step above poverty level, basically lower middle class. EFC is a meaningless number because the school's not meeting it, the gov plans leave them out, and the families tend to be overstretched already. Yet they would not be counted in a percentage of Pell recipients, even though they are probably struggling harder to pay for school.</p>
<p>A stricter measure of low income students is number and amount of SEOG grants. Those are the beyond-the-Pell grants for poorer students.</p>
<p>Mini, re your post #145, I don't know where Marite got her information, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from a Barnard site or publication. Barnard does not make misleading claims nor does it claim that 55% of students get need-based aid. I posted a link to Barnard's web site in my post #137 -- the number they claim for the past year is 44% - and they have a lot of data including CDS posted. One thing I like about Barnard is that they are very transparent about data and documentation -- they aren't perfect, but they are very forthright with their data. </p>
<p>Though I have just figured out that the most interesting stuff about finances is likely to be found in a document called the IPEDS Data Feedback Report. Every college has one, but getting hold of these is not so easy. Here's an example of the type of information contained in one for UC Santa Cruz:
<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/ipedspas/Expt/pdf/IPEDSDFR2006_110714.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://nces.ed.gov/ipedspas/Expt/pdf/IPEDSDFR2006_110714.pdf</a></p>
<p>Some of it is a reiteration of CDS info, but presented in graphic form along with comparative reference points to peer institutions. If every parent had this in hand for every college their kid was interested in attending, they could pretty much toss US News in the trash.</p>
<p>"Mini, re your post #145, I don't know where Marite got her information, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from a Barnard site or publication. Barnard does not make misleading claims nor does it claim that 55% of students get need-based aid. I posted a link to Barnard's web site in my post #137 -- the number they claim for the past year is 44% - and they have a lot of data including CDS posted."</p>
<p>Apologies. I had assumed Marite had gotten her information from a Barnard source.</p>
<p>Harvard is at 49% (not anywhere close to 70%), but here is an interesting caveat, which indicates why even the CDS data will be difficult to make sense of in the future. H. is at 53% for first years'. The reason is that, while tuition went up, they started to replace loans for those in the top quintile with grants. </p>
<p>Here's how it works, and Princeton is a better example. Princeton should be praised for its no-loan policies, and the percentage of low-income (Pell) students has increased...but not that much - because that change would have to happen in the admissions office - and I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say it will. (and it wasn't $8k loans over four years that was preventing low-income students from attending Princeton to begin with.) The big beneficiaries are Princeton's propaganda machine, and secondarily, higher income students. You take a student with family income of $140k, and instead of giving them a $2k loan for four years, you give them a $2k grant. At the same time, you increase cost of attendance a little more than $2k a year. The college ends up with more net cash; for propaganda purposes the college can advertise higher rates of students receiving need-based aid, and the students' parents, who would have sent their kid to Princeton anyway, can now "kvell" that their kid went to Princeton ON A SCHOLARSHIP! It's a win-win all the way around.</p>
<p>This isn't meant to knock Princeton. It is a shrewd thing to do, and there are indeed some low-income kids who will really benefit (just not huge numbers of them.) The point is that, for purposes of this discussion, even my "entitlement" index will soon become obsolete, and the class issues will become even less transparent than they are now (that's a sad thought).</p>
<p>"Is there a dispute about the percentage of students who receive some financial aid, however inadequate that might be? I took the figures to mean that 55% of Barnard students and 70% of Harvard students receive aid, ranging from a few hundred dollars to full ride."</p>
<p>No, it is a dispute about Harvard implying that 70% of Harvard students receive need-based grant aid from Harvard ('cause they don't give merit aid), and it is simply not true, and Harvard knows it. Why they think they need the propaganda bon-bon is beyond me.</p>
<p>(P.S. It should be noted that at most, but not all, prestige privates, there is usually 1-2% more first years receiving aid than the total undergraduate student body. This is because students receiving aid at most of these schools leave at a higher rate.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Mini, re your post #145, I don't know where Marite got her information, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from a Barnard site or publication. Barnard does not make misleading claims nor does it claim that 55% of students get need-based aid. I posted a link to Barnard's web site in my post #137 -- the number they claim for the past year is 44% - and they have a lot of data including CDS posted. One thing I like about Barnard is that they are very transparent about data and documentation -- they aren't perfect, but they are very forthright with their data.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where marite got her data (bolding added):</p>
<p>
[quote]
At Barnard, we admit students without regard to their financial need—and provide admitted students who demonstrate eligibility with financial aid. Approximately 56 percent of Barnard students receive financial aid; many receive scholarships or grants (which do not have to be repaid). The average family income for students receiving aid directly from Barnard is $53,000. For more information on financial aid (including applications and detailed policies), click here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>Okay, got your analysis. I've always been dubious about the 70% figure.</p>
<p>I don't think it's that disingenuous for a university to count outside sources of financial aid. If a university itself gives 44% of the aid, and outside sources give another 10% of aid (and NM would count), that still adds up to 54% of students receiving some sort of financial aid. Yes, they could be clearer about sources.</p>
<p>How would you count students who receive full tuition and an allowance from the US government--those in ROTC? Are those getting financial aid? Or something else entirely? It does mean (in many cases) that they can afford an otherwise-unaffordable school.</p>
<p>Good point, Dmd. There are two separate issues, aren't there? One is how much individual colleges provide in financial aid to how many students, and the other is how many students receive financial aid from whatever source. For the sake of discussion about wealth or lack thereof, the second issue is the more relevant one. </p>
<p>The Barnard website says that 56% of its students receive financial aid. It does not say that Barnard gives financial aid to 56% of its students. I suspect if we were to look up other websites, we would find similar careful phrasing.</p>
<p>Here's a quotation of some Common Data Set definitions from a very recent email to college officers about the Common Data Set: </p>
<p>
[quote]
CDS H2.</p>
<p>h) Number of students in line d whose need was fully met (exclude PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)</p>
<p>i) On average, the percentage of need that was met of students who were awarded any need-based aid. Exclude any aid that was awarded in excess of need as well as any resources that were awarded to replace EFC (PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The author of the email jumped into a thread in which college officers seemed to be confused about how to report financial aid data. If everyone reports consistently according to the Common Data Set definitions </p>
<p><a href="http://www.commondataset.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.commondataset.org/</a> </p>
<p>then we could compare college data meaningfully. Maybe some colleges are still figuring out how to report the data.</p>