<p>Another reason is that for many of the respectable/elite private universities, AP courses don’t cover the equivalent amount of material with the same rigor as their intro courses. </p>
<p>Even with private schools that did accept AP credit to place into more advanced courses/fulfilling major/core requirement, it may not always be a good idea to advance. Doing so burned an older undergrad classmate who had serious gaps in his US History knowledge which caused him serious difficulties in his higher-level courses in a related major despite scoring a 5 on the AP. In retrospect, he’d have been much better off taking my college’s USH course sequence. Not only to eliminate the possibility of those gaps, but also to give him more writing practice judging by what I’ve seen of his essays. </p>
<p>This issue is also a reason why many such private schools may refuse to grant equivalent course credit for all/most courses taken at other colleges…especially lower-level private or public/community college institutions. </p>
<p>It also isn’t strictly a private school issue. Federal Service Academies also refuse to grant any course credit or advanced class standing for any previously taken college/university course. You still start off as a plebe and must complete 4 full years. However, you will be allowed to take the next advanced course in the sequence provided you pass their own placement exams. </p>
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<p>Possibly to avoid a form of “double counting”. </p>
<p>If a given dual-enrollment class was used to fulfill high school graduation requirements, many colleges won’t allow that very same course to be counted for potential transfer credit.</p>
<p>This is also true of many public universities. For example, [url=<a href=“http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/APCredit.htm]UCLA[/url”>http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/APCredit.htm]UCLA[/url</a>] gives a lot of credit units for AP scores, but many of them are not considered equivalent to actual UCLA courses (where an actual course number is listed in the charts). Many of the AP scores just become free elective units, or fulfill base-level graduation requirements that do not necessarily need a college course to fulfill.</p>
<p>The difference in credit unit (as opposed to placement and subject credit) granting policies between public and private universities is probably due to the financial incentives at each type of school. Placement and subject credit granting policies likely vary more on how selective the university is, rather than being public or private.</p>
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<p>It is generally a good idea, when considering skipping a course with AP or previous college credit, to review the old final exams of the course to be skipped to check your knowledge, unless the college has its own placement testing procedures for skipping that course (in which case you just take the college’s placement test). It does not matter whether it is a public or private university.</p>
<p>That’s easy. The college course taken for DE is usually full of high schoolers. In contrast, that same Calc class taught at the four year is full of college premeds and engineers. The competition can be a whole lot different.</p>
<p>(when discussing why dual credit is usually not counted by colleges)</p>
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<p>The double-counting argument doesn’t make sense to me because you get HS credit for AP classes as well, and many schools will take them. Also, if double-counting were the main issue, I’d expect schools to grant placement, if not credit, for the classes. I think the issue of not wanting to have to assess every incoming freshman’s dual credit course in the same way that they would for transfers makes the most sense.</p>
<p>As to the argument about the MIT student who took all of their classes at MIT, versus those who transferred in their core work and only took upper-level credit at MIT, I think you’re absolutely right that the MIT classes are not the same as the “equivalent” community college classes, even if they were to cover identical material. And that means the student who comes in with transfer credit is probably less well prepared for upper-level MIT classwork. However, if she can come in and do well in upper-level MIT classes, then at the end of the day, I’d consider that student just as well-educated and as well-prepared to perform well in grad school or in a job as one who did all her coursework at MIT. Every college has a minimum number of classes taken at their school before they will grant you a degree from the school, and as they’re bound to be the more challenging upper-level classes, I think it all works out.</p>
<p>Daughter attended state uni and transfered in 54 dual credit courses from a community college she attended while still in high school. High school covered the tuition and books and lab fees, allowing her to graduate from NCSU in 4 full semesters and 1 summer. Saved 2 full years of tuition, room and board with a STEM degree.</p>
<p>Son when completing his 2nd undergrad degree was able to transfer in 70+ AP units. This is addition to his units from his 1st degree from previous school allowed the completion of a STEM degree as well in 2 semesters. He was able to complete a biochemistry BS, a microbiology BS and a genetics minor with the majority of lower division units in those sciences to be satisfied by the AP courses. The only courses he needed for graduation were the upper division sciences specific for his majors.</p>
<p>Again this saved us a ton of money. Had he attended our in-state flagship initially as a freshman (rather than the ivy he first graduated from) he would have transfered in over 70+ units there as well, allowing him to graduate in less than 4 semesters. He was blessed to have another option.</p>
<p>So for us the APs and dual credit made a huge difference, and this was with the above kiddos being pre-vet and pre-med.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>***Father91 points out that at Pton with enough units you can graduate in 3 years. This was true for son, and that what was offered to him, with the extra year possibly studying at the London School of Economics or the Hungarian School for Science and Mathematics, both which were included in his financial aid package. Son chose to remain at pton rather than going abroad for his 4th year and instead completed more research and took more classes in another field other than his major. He was very grateful for the extra time, classes and research opportunities.</p>
<p>It does if you understand that while AP classes count for HS credit, colleges will only grant credit for AP scores that meet their minimum standards. If one takes an AP course without taking the AP exam, the college which normally would grant AP credit for that AP exam won’t. Conversely, if one took the AP exam without taking the course, that same college would grant the credit while the high school won’t count that towards graduation requirements. </p>
<p>Moreover, with few exceptions of red-tape infested bureaucratic institutions*, most colleges will allow students to take placement exams to advance…even if one has never taken AP exams or dual-enrollment college courses. Most private colleges I know of provide some sort of departmental placement exam or allowances to advance with an interview or few with the Prof teaching the more advanced courses. </p>
<p>Usually, all a student needs to do is ask, take the departmental placement exam/do the interview(s), and if he/she meets the departmental standard…advances. </p>
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<li>The CUNY/SUNYs of the early-mid’90s were really bad about that according to the experiences of many HS classmates who subsequently transferred to respectable/elite private colleges.</li>
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<p>But more importantly, not sure that your example supports the point that you are attempting to make. While MIT might give credit for Math 1 taken at Podunk Regional college, MIT (like most colleges) will still require the math major to take 10+ math classes in Cambridge. Thus, a student presenting two courses from Podunk RC will have to replace those two math courses with upper division math courses to graduate. In other words, such a student could end up taking more upper division math at MIT.</p>
<p>I can only add limited current experience regarding MIT.</p>
<p>S will be a freshman there in the fall. Surprisingly, he got credit for AP Calc B/C, Calc II, Calc III, Linear Algebra, and Dif. Equations, all taken at a California CC. He also might be able to get credit for two semesters of Arabic taken in the same Ca. CC system. He does not get any credit for all his physics courses and, because he got a 5 on the AP Physics M and a 4 on the AP Physics E&M in his freshman year, he won’t get credit for M. (Students need a 5 on both exams to get credit for M) He’ll need to take the advanced standing exam in order to get credit for M. He’s opting not to take the E&M exam because he wants to repeat the course at MIT being that he took it almost 4 years ago.</p>
<p>I was surprised that he was getting credit for so many classes. I assumed he would start over from scratch. I don’t know what it will mean in terms of saving money or graduating early, but I would imagine it could mean he’ll get to do some graduate level math classes during his u/g time.</p>
<p>My one piece of advice for anyone taking dual-enrolled classes: SAVE YOUR SYLLABUSES! Schools want to see syllabuses, textbooks used, and chapters covered, and even copies of tables of content from textbooks (and of course your transcripts and grades). It was a scramble to find all of the important info and contacting old professors was hit and miss, but so far, we’ve had success.</p>
<p>I also agree with the person who said to take what classes you want rather than worry if the classes or APs will transfer. Unless you’re razor focused on a school, each school has a unique policy and it’s hard to keep track of them all.</p>
<p>Unless the high school didn’t offer dual enrollment, I’d consider the high school student who took college courses in high school to be a stronger student. MIT obviously deemed them “worthy” of admission. Some students run out of courses available at the local high school and need the extra challenge dual enrollment provides. Graduating MIT with a respectable GPA is further proof that they were well prepared. At that point, MIT’s reputation is on the line, not that of “Podunk RC.”</p>
<p>IIRC, he took almost all the physics classes (Lower division and upper division) offered at your local state university. Or did he just audit those courses?</p>
<p>At any rate, for his sake I hope the Physics courses at MIT really are a quantum leap in difficulty (no pun intended) over those at Cal State or he may be bored silly completing his freshman physics requirements.</p>
<p>Those taking calculus in high school are likely better at math than those taking at as college freshmen (assuming a “normal” college freshman calculus course, not one which includes real analysis).</p>
<p>My son took math and science classes at a top 15 university, took a cmath class at CC, and had many AP credits. All colleges he looked at would take the Credits, if APs were 4s or sometimes had to be 5s, but some schools cap the credits you can bring in. At some schools he could have had about 50 credits, but he will be limited to 32 at RPI, where he will be in the fall. UMD or GT would have accepted many more.</p>
<p>Presumably, MIT gave subject credit for and placement out of its “regular” math courses (18.01, 18.02, 18.03, 18.06), not the “with theory” versions (18.014 instead of 18.01, 18.022 or 18.024 instead of 18.02, 18.034 instead of 18.03, 18.700 instead of 18.06). Based on the course [url=<a href=“http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m18a.html]descriptions[/url”>Fall 2023 Course 18: Mathematics]descriptions[/url</a>], MIT’s “regular” math courses are similar to those at other schools, although accelerated (i.e. three semesters of calculus in other schools is taught in two semesters at MIT). Note: MIT swaps the use of “course” and “subject” compared to how most schools use them – math is a course, while calculus, linear algebra, etc. are subjects.</p>
<p>Since California community colleges model their calculus and higher math courses on those at UCs and CSUs in order to facilitate transfer students, the content of the courses is likely pretty standard for college math courses.</p>
<p>For Physics II, 18.021 (accelerated) or 18.022 (with more math) is likely a better choice for the student in question than the regular 18.02. Similarly, if he has to take Physics I, 18.011 or 18.012 is likely a better choice than 18.01.</p>
<p>My D is entering our state flagship with almost two years worth of credit from APs and one dual enrollment calculus course. The AP credits cost us a great deal less than taking the courses at college would have done, and they largely cover her breadth requirements, leaving D with a lot of options. She can pursue more electives, double majoring, graduating early or taking a combined bachelors-masters program. Her intention is currently the latter, although she’s also taking one elective class this semester purely for “fun” - it’s interesting to her but not needed for her degree program. Her hard work in high school has earned her the opportunity to take a fun course.</p>
<p>She didn’t initially choose the state flagship for its AP credit policy, but that has turned out to be extremely valuable. It’s worth considering.</p>
<p>One thing to consider when considering dual enrollment courses is that if the student has any intention of trying to go to medical school, dual enrollment courses do count toward the college GPA used for medical school admission purposes. So getting a bunch of A or A+ grades in dual enrollment courses (particularly in math and science courses) gives the student a leg up on pre-med GPA, but getting any lower grades will be harmful to medical school aspirations. But AP tests and scores are not considered in pre-med GPA (and they are often not accepted by medical schools to fulfill pre-med requirements).</p>
<p>Yes, it is kind of annoying that a student in high school has to think this far ahead if s/he aspires to become an MD…</p>
<p>You both probably understand this stuff a lot better than I do. I assume the math was “regular” and not “with theory”. Does that mean kids go back and take these classes with theory? I truly don’t understand how classes work there.</p>
<p>There are still gobs of great math classes to take. My son may start with probability and stats or analysis which he’s been studying online independently.</p>
<p>Re. physics: while my son took the three calc based physics courses at the CC in freshman and sophomore year and got As, he feels he needs to take E&M over (and I don’t even know what’s equivalent to Physics 197, Waves, Optics and Modern Physics). The crazy thing about that class was, when he took it, there was a pretest and since he got 90% on the pretest, he did exactly one homework set the whole semester! He learned a whole lot more from his mechanics teacher, for sure, and feels he’ll test out of that.</p>
<p>And yes, Bovertine, he audited his next year’s physics class (Classical Electrodynamics, using the Griffith’s textbook), so though he got an A by doing all the work and taking the tests, he will probably have to retake that if he goes through with the double math/physics major. Since the audit was free and he’s getting great f. aid, I guess he can’t complain. I suppose he could try to place out of it, but he’s fine to play it safe. He’s someone who’s never bored, truly.</p>
<p>This is also the case for law school admissions as the mandated LSDAS service requires all transcripts of college courses attempted/taken up to the first undergrad degree…including courses taken in high school. </p>
<p>Knew several friends who ended up getting burned in the law school admissions process because their LSDAS GPAs were much lower than the one listed on their undergrad transcript because they received mediocre/failing grades from undergrad courses taken in high school. Worse, LSDAS also averages in the initial failing grade even if one received a better grade on the retake. Know of some folks who ended up getting burned by that, too. </p>
<p>Conversely, I’ve also known of some folks whose LSDAS GPAs were higher than what was listed on their undergrad transcript due to the high grades because of excellent grades in undergrad courses taken during high school or during summers at other colleges/universities…even if they weren’t accepted for credit by their home undergrad institution. </p>
<p>As for the last sentence, many law schools ones seem to take a skeptical view of applicants who graduated early, especially if the law schools are elite and the applicants have a year or more worth of credits as a result of AP or CLEP credits rather than actual undergrad courses.</p>
Oh, I think I misunderstood. For some reason I thought he had taken all the Mechanics, E&M and Quantum Mechanics SD State had to offer. I forgot he was actually more advanced in math. I’m sure he’s smart enough to figure out his schedule based on the course descriptions. :)</p>