Scared about screwing up my life

College Search & Selection
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<p>The word count of this post is inversely proportional to the number of responses I'll get, so I'll make this short and add more detail if people ask questions.</p>

<p>I'll be a high school senior this fall and I have a fairly typical dilemma. In an ideal world, I'd go to an LAC and study something impractical. But I have to be employable, so I'm considering going to my overwhelmingly gigantic state flagship and being more career-minded and not as much in debt. (I plan to have the same major no matter what, but obviously the university has more practical course options than the LAC.)</p>

<p>People tell me I'd be selling myself short by doing that and I'm arrogant enough to wonder if they're right. I'm young and immature and I think I lack the insight necessary to make the right decision on my own. Any advice for me?</p>

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<p>Unless those people who are telling you that you are selling yourself short are willing to pony up the difference between big state U and cozy LAC, ignore them.</p>

<p>You need to find out just exactly how much money your family is ready, willing, and able to spend each year for your education, so that you can start to work through your own money issues. Sit down with your parents this weekend, and ask them. Then run the Net Price Calculators at the websites of your local community college, one or two of your home-state public Us, and several LACs that appeal to you right now. Talk about what the results mean.</p>

<p>Then head to the Financial Aid Forum and read up on how other families have made it work.</p>

3

<p>

Maybe you are not getting many responses because other people may be as confused as I am about what you are saying.</p>

<p>By “that” do you mean :

  • going to the overwhelmingly gigantic state flagship?
  • going to the LAC?
  • being more career-minded?
  • having the same major no matter what? </p>

<p>Is “the same major no matter” the impractical one you want to study at the LAC?</p>

4

<p>First of all, as discussed on other threads, majors that are commonly deemed impractical and unhireable often are neither. Lots of people get good jobs with liberal arts majors and some people with professional majors are unemployed.</p>

<p>But with that said, it this is a cost thing then the state flagship will certainly not screw up your life. People have weird, idyllic thoughts when it comes to advising high school seniors - they think about the places they would’ve liked to go, they imagine creeping ivy and Gothic libraries, etc. But that’s a movie, not real life. And most public flagship universities are excellent institutions.</p>

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<p>The first and third. It refers to what came directly before it. </p>

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<p>Yes.</p>

<p>I don’t know how much of an issue finances are. My parents won’t tell me anything. I’ll inherit money from my dad when he dies but I don’t know how much that would help if I had loans.</p>

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<p>OP should apply to some LAC’s that have deep pockets and low loan levels. Washington & Lee and URichmond hand out big merit aid to those selected for special scholarships.</p>

<p>It’s not exactly clear why OSU has more supposedly “practical course options” in the same major as an LAC.</p>

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<p>“I don’t know how much of an issue finances are. My parents won’t tell me anything.”</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this often means that the parents aren’t telling because they don’t want to have to confess how little money actually is available for your education. If you suspect that could be the case, you need to focus on affordability. Read the threads on merit aid in the Financial Aid Forum for ideas.</p>

<p>Do try to get some information out of your parents. Ask if they have a budget, and what the limits are. Some parents have different limits for different places. Ask what they think about you taking federal loans, and how much they expect you to make each summer and during the school year for your expenses. Find out if they will file the FAFSA for you and if they are also willing to file the CSS Profile or other financial aid paperwork that a college/university might require. Encourage them to pay a visit to the Financial Aid Forum as well so that they can ask their own questions if they have some.</p>

<p>On your own, you can only borrow up to the federal loan limits of $5,500 freshman year, $6,500 sophomore year, $7,500 junior year, and $7,500 senior year. That is not much money at all. If your parents can’t help you pay for your education, you need to get serious about finding affordable options.</p>

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<p>

I wouldn’t assume that your major will be far more employable if done at a “gigantic” state flagship than if done at a smaller LAC. Stats often suggest otherwise. For example, the payscale ROI report at [College</a> Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2012 College ROI Report](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012]College”>College Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2012 College ROI Report) doesn’t show a huge difference between big public universities and smaller LAC. The top 10 non-engineering LACs list an annual ROI of 9-13%, and all but one of the top 10 public universities list the same annual ROI of 9-13% (the one exception is UVA when in state + financial aid). Instead major selection appears to have a much higher correlation with salary (schools that have a high percentage engineering majors fall towards the top of the list), as does college selectivity. Many colleges’ career departments also publish salary and percent employed lists for new grads online, which are separated by major, making it more useful that the Payscale data.</p>

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<p>What I meant by more practical course options is that some of the LACs I’ve considered don’t really have classes/minors in computer science or actuarial science or anything like that, which I could get a job in if I didn’t want to go to grad school or couldn’t get into one or something. (And OSU has graduate-level courses I could take, which apparently is important?)</p>

<p>And I have a lot of AP credits (well, assuming I passed the tests last month…) and 32 dual-enrollment credits from Cleveland State, and I’d like most of them to transfer. Cleveland State says they will transfer to any public college in Ohio, but transfer.org doesn’t show OSU equivalencies for all the courses I’m taking so I don’t know if they will.</p>

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<p>You’re obviously a bright girl, so start acting like one. You don’t have to compromise here. You can get scholarships to fine liberal arts colleges or universities that will make them affordable. Consider some women’s colleges - my d four a full ride to Smith and Scripps, for example, without need. She got a a full ride at several top 25 universities - again, without demonstrating need. Perhaps you can’t go to Swarthmore or Amherst without need-based aid, but you have options.</p>

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<p>I agree with most of the responses so far but here is another thought - why do you have to make this an “either/or” choice right now?</p>

<p>Certainly apply to OSU (and possibly Miami as a smaller in-state, public option) while also applying to some LACs that are known for giving good merit aid. There are certainly lots of options in Ohio–Denison, Wooster, Ohio Wesleyan, Oberlin, Kenyon I believe all give at least some merit aid. I know that Denison and Wooster are extremely generous to very strong students. </p>

<p>Also, do try to talk to your parents and have them start to figure out how much they can realistically afford to contribute to your education. </p>

<p>Also, it sounds like you might be interested in some kind of math oriented career (you mention actuary or CS) – certainly you can major in math at any LAC. Although if you are very far ahead in math, you might find the course selection of higher level courses limited. That’s easy enough to research online, though, on each college’s web site.</p>

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<p>1) I don’t like uncertainty.
2) If there’s no compelling reason to apply to anywhere besides Ohio State, then I don’t have to write supplement essays this summer or do interviews or worry about demonstrating interest.</p>

<p>And it’s not just about finding some random cheap LAC. I had specific ones in mind when I asked the question. I wouldn’t regret not going to an LAC I never heard of, but I’m afraid I would regret not going to one I spent a lot of time researching.
I like that there are more courses at OSU and probably more research opportunities, so I think there are more benefits to it than just its cheapness. But I’m trying to figure out if there’s anything fundamentally different in the intellectual growth (sorry for the trite phrase) I would get from an LAC vs. a large university. People say that graduates from liberal arts colleges are valued because of the qualities they gained from the LAC experience (I guess from discussion-based classes and overabundant distribution requirements and like-minded peers). I can’t figure out if it really makes a difference what college you go to or if it just depends on whether you had an intellectual kind of mindset to begin with.</p>

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<p>How far?</p>

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<p>“People say that graduates from liberal arts colleges are valued because of the qualities they gained from the LAC experience (I guess from discussion-based classes and overabundant distribution requirements and like-minded peers). I can’t figure out if it really makes a difference what college you go to or if it just depends on whether you had an intellectual kind of mindset to begin with.”</p>

<p>Most of what you get out of college (as the rest of life) is up to you. So yes, if you are the intellectual type you will almost certainly be able to encounter like minds wherever you study. OSU has a huge student body, so there certainly are plenty of intellectuals there! OSU also has a wide variety of course offerings. If you want to, you can recreate the breadth aspect of an LAC there as well.</p>

<p>My nephew only applied to one big home-state public because he didn’t want to have to write a bazillion essays. His sister chased the money and applied to about 10 LACs and one home-state public. It really is OK to go either way. Or to apply to OSU and one or two LACs that you really like. Or to just enroll full time at Cleveland State and be done with it. </p>

<p>As for the Math issue, check each college/university website for the department offerings, and compare what the various places offer. You will know pretty quickly if you will use up the Math program early in your education. I’d also suggest that you run a search for posts by b@r!um who was a math major at a selective LAC. She has written about the challenges of getting the higher-level coursework that she needed in order to be competitive for grad school admissions.</p>

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<p>“How far?” LAC’s alternate-year rotate junior/senior level topical math courses: e.g. differential geometry, topology and higher analysis and abstract algebra courses. The senior level ones generally are at the level of first year grad courses at state universities like OSU. If you’ve already had solid multivariate calculus w/ linear algebra and ODE’s AND either abstract algebra or intro real analysis, then you’ll have maxed out top math LAC’s. You’ll also have no business being at OSU.</p>

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<p>Listen the Happymom. There is almost nothing you can do to “screw up your life” at this point–certainly not the decision between OSU and an LAC or choice of major. Debt level, is about the only thing that will do it.</p>

<p>Have the talk with your parents and find out what you can afford. Then visit some of the schools you’re looking at–especially the LACs. That’s going to go a long way in reducing the uncertainty around your decisions so you can make a realistic choice.</p>

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<p>Why not plan for a double major, or a major/minor combination?
Also, remember that about 75% freshmen change their minds regarding majors between their high school senior year and their college first year (especially once 1st semester classes have started, exams have fallen upon their head, and grades have rolled in. Many who come as premed for example end up doing something entirely different).</p>

<p>I’d say apply to both your local flagship’s Honors Program and your favorite LACs. Once the offers are in, go to the cheapest place that offers your majors/minors. It may not be your local flagship: some private colleges have deep pockets and are willing to offer great scholarships to girls who want to major in STEM. If cost is similar, I’m a proponent of leaving your state to see how another part of the country lives.</p>

<p>Finally, why make a choice? Beside choosing two majors, you can also choose schools that are strong in two areas - in fact, some schools have two hats, so to speak:
Harvey Mudd is Engineering and Liberal Arts and sounds exactly like what you’re interested in.
MIT has SUPERB programs in social sciences and foreign languages.
There’s also a thread here about colleges for the science-minded and one about a student who would like a place where it’s all math, all the time, breathes lives maths… look it up.</p>

<p>Don’t limit your choices to the schools you’ve heard of - take the top 50 liberal arts colleges, even if you’ve never heard of them, and look at their math dept’s offerings; email the department, ask how many students graduate in math, how many are involved in a professor’s research, present at conferences, if there’s a math-specific study abroad program, etc. Finally, for STEM, the women’s colleges are hard to beat.</p>

<p>Overall, the experience is very different at a large university and at a LAC, especially when it’s as sports-focused as OSU. The type of “personal growth” is very different if you’re at a residential, small school and a large school where many upperclass students live off campus. I’d be very ambivalent about it. Not sure a dedicated math student would fit in very well there, even though I’m sure there’d be a small, supportive group in the dept. Outside of it, though, the contrast might be great (the kids I’ve known who went to OSU weren’t quite the intellectual type, and the school doesn’t have a reputation for its intellectual vibe). It all depends on how social you’d like to be. On the other hand, if you’ve taken a lot of college-level math, you do need to look into each dept’s offerings. Applying to high-level universities known for math would then make sense. You could go to a big university known for its undergraduate AND graduate math program, and still not be at a ginormous school like OSU.
(LAC + math for me screams Harvey Mudd but I’m sure there will be other suggestions).</p>

<p>On another point: it’s dubious any college will let you transfer all your college and AP credits. The most I’ve heard of is 1/4 total credits needed for graduation - some universities do give you sophomore standing in that case and let you graduate in 3 years.</p>

<p>If your parents are reluctant to discuss money with you, pick your dream school and run the net price calculator.
Talking with your parents, first you need to determine whether you’ll be going for strictly merit aid or if you’re going for both need and merit aid (if you are high need, ie., your parents make less than $60,000, apply to colleges that meet 100% need or offer generous scholarships or garantee need-blind admission or are no-loans - often similar but not always). Would they need to take a loan if your college cost more than $20,000? Do they have money set aside? Are they saying “dont worry about it” because you’re high need and don’t know it or because you’re very well-off and they don’t want you to grow up spoiled? … This kind of discussion.
They may tell you they’ll make it work… but depending on whether they make $60,000 a year or $300,000, the schools that are likely to give you money are quite different.
Don’t assume you won’t qualify for aid -right now, the threshold is somewhere between $120,000 and $200,000 for need-based aid, depending on the college.</p>

<p>If the choice comes down to a LAC with math classes you want but high debt, or OSU without debt, pick OSU. But you need to have that choice, if only because you may find out another university offers you more than OSU to attend, and then the choice becomes low debt LAC vs. low debt OSU. That’s a choice you have a right to.</p>

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<p>The simple truth is this - you aren’t going to Reed. Accept it and move on, or repair the relationship with your dad and figure out how to get money before he dies (seriously morbid and unproductive thinking there). You will not be able to afford it, and that door is closed </p>

<p>You can, however, strategically position yourself for scholarships at “better” schools than your state flagship, if that is what you want to do.</p>

<p>Did you end up meeting the NMSF cut-off for OH? That opens the door for a lot of money. At places like Wesleyan, for example, which is not some generic LAC.</p>

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<p>FWIW, this might sound harsh, but I think that parents and teachers hear this every year. Bright, motivated kids end up bitter because what they want is out of reach, and they don’t why. I do blame your parents for your angst here, but the sooner you realize you’re on your own and make the best decision for YOU, the better. :-)</p>

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<p>OP, have you asked your parents to run the financial aid calculators at a list of colleges you are interested in? Or are they saying they figure they make too much money so won’t get anything? Or is there some situation that makes the calculators unreliable (small business, divorce, etc)? They really should run them – my D2 got no FA at some schools, but about $10,000/year in need based aid at a couple of others. I didn’t really think she would get any, so it is worth doing.</p>

<p>I see sakacar talking about your dad and Reed, and I know you have mentioned Reed in other posts. (Just looked at this one, maybe I missed it, but don’t see you talking specifically about Reed… but assuming that is where you most want to go and they are giving you a hard time). I will tell you that Reed is a great school for some kids – but I have to say that I asked my D2 to NOT apply there after we visited last year, and she agreed to take it off her list (she liked it a lot, but promised she would not end up on an analyst’s couch someday saying how her mom wouldn’t let her apply to her dream school…). Honestly, my D2 has some “flakey” tendancies (not uncommon at Reed, I think), and I felt like four years at Reed would make her more flakey, not less. Translating into “less employable, not more” as part of that worry. Reed was not the only college where that seemed to be the case, though. She also got into Swarthmore, and after accepted students day said, “They are a lot like Reed, but maybe a little smarter and smoking a little less dope”. She also said, “This would be a great place to go to school for four years IF you didn’t have to go out into the real world when you are done.” She ended up picking Harvey Mudd for the fall, and is planning on majoring in Physics and taking as many visual arts/drawing classes as she can in the Claremont consortium. </p>

<p>The point is that there are a lot of schools in between OSU and Reed on the “practical” scale. This is not a binary choice. Consider a school where you can double major in CS or Math, and something less practical that you are interested in. Or minor in the 2nd subject. Note that not all schools offer the option to double major or minor, so check that out ahead of time.</p>

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<p>*I don’t like uncertainty. *
But that’s exactly what your parents are asking you to do - make decisions with incomplete info, cross your fingers and assume it will work out, if you just do it “right.” Take that bull by the horns, so you can make reasoned decisions. It’s a burden on you, frankly, to have to find the one perfect path without what is really one of the most important pieces of info - the financial starting point. There you sit, trying to gain some power in all this, with one arm tied behind your back. </p>

<p>As for what “people say-” Yeah, “graduates from liberal arts colleges are valued.” But guess what? So are graduates of mega-U’s when they maximize their time there, hone critical thinking and analytical skills, pursue opps available witht he nature of a larger faculty and greater research facilities/opps, etc. </p>

<p>But, that’s on you. Take a breath. Otherwise all the planning in the world won’t stop you from doubting your decisions. Best wishes.</p>