School in the 2020-2021 Academic Year & Coronavirus (Part 1)

Parent Cafe
2762

I wish I shared your enthusiasm. I believe from a research perspective the US has an excellent infrastructure. Where we fall down is the supply side. We can develop the drugs but can we make them? We still have shortages of PPE’s. 3M and MSA are stepping up but it takes a while. Hospitals still have shortages of certain drugs. A lot of the drugs or the components (API’s) are made overseas. We’ve off-shored that piece. Now we have to compete (bid) globally for those components.

I see all these great ideas and plans but I’m not sure we can execute, at least on the scale we need.

2763

We are in the minority camp: A, followed by C, followed by B.

We’re in the same boat. Finding the right academic/cohort fit was son’s first priority. Prestige played a small role followed by the experience but then again S20 isn’t too much into the social side of school.

That said, I think ucbalumnus is pretty spot on for the majority of kids.

2764

Even if these items are what we’re paying for, do we really agree on what they are?

“Academic content” seems to be too restricted and narrow. Even for elementary and introductory materials, the “content” may look similar on the surface, but they really aren’t. They vary significantly in depth, in breath and in pace from college to college. Not only the quality of instructions are different, but top professors in their fields can provide perspectives and insights others simply can’t. And they aren’t in the books. These insights and perspectives become more important as a student progresses deeper in his/her studies or branches out to make connections with other subjects. For more advanced materials, assuming the college offers what a student wants to study for, the differences are often even more pronounced among colleges. One needs to look beyond simple course description to get a better understanding of what the course really covers (e.g. by looking at the materials, including course handouts, psets, exams, etc. in previous years).

“Residential experience” also seems to be ill defined. Does it mean the qualities of dorms and food, and all the pampering? Or does it mean making lifelong friends who are your intellectual peers and can challenge you to think harder and deeper? If it’s the latter, then it is important.

“Prestige” has had so many debates on CC and I don’t want to stir up another one. Suffice to say that it shouldn’t be on the top of your list.

2765

I don’t disagree with anyone of this, but no matter what we call it, a thought process/detailed analysis like this is not part of the college search for many rising HS seniors primarily because it’s (generally) not necessary or practical.

Lots of reasons why this doesn’t happen…many students have no idea what their major will be…let alone how to compare offerings or profs across colleges. Something like this isn’t even on the radar of many parents or GCs, and finding materials beyond the course catalog can be very difficult, even impossible, for an outsider.

I expect that there are some students who attempt to make these cross college comparisons, such as those who are very advanced in math (or any other subject) who need ample opportunities for their continued education.

2766

If your child was forced to pick one of these two scenarios, which would they pick?

A. In person classes, but strict social distancing outside the classroom. Very few activities or social fun.

B. Online classes, but the rest of campus was open. Lots of ECs, greek life, sports, etc.

On June 1st most colleges are going to layout the plan and it’s going to be choice A with the promise of choice B when it’s possible.

2767

@AlwaysMoving I can’t understand a scenario where B is on the table? Isn’t it likely to be A or A plus online classes (but still in the dorms), or C online at home (or not on campus housing, anyway) like this semester? The B stuff seems like the stuff most likely to spread the virus the fastest. If it’s an intellectual debate rather than a real question, I think my D would chose A because she can’t learn as well online- but she would absolutely yearn to not have to choose that and prefer B.

2768

Kid A would pick A but would lose out making friends which is hard for him still, kid B would pick B, but whine about the classes being online. (we know there wont be a B though.)

2769

I agree. We are in a similar situation with Rice. It’s a great school but many do not recognize the prestige, especially here in the Midwest. When my daughter told people she was going there most gave her blank, confused looks. We chose to pay for the educational opportunities (and the prestige impact we hope it will have for grad schools/employers) BUT one of the major factors for our decision was the “fit” for my daughter with their residential college system. My D was heavily involved in an out of school activity in high school. It provided her with amazing experiences and opportunities but it also made her often feel as a bit of an outsider at school. She had to travel and missed quite a bit of school at times and spent many evenings and weekends commuting to her activity. She wanted a different experience at college and really wanted to feel a part of the community. And she got exactly what she wanted and loved it for the 5 months she was there. She became involved in a way she never was in high school. So for her the online experience is just not the same and not what she signed up for. Yes, she’ll still get taught by great teachers and get a degree from a good school. But she’ll miss out on the research opportunities, activities, and immersive residential experience we chose to pay for.

2770

Option A. That sounds like the plan at UofSC. In-person classes for smaller classes/sections (S19’s classes for fall are all <25 students, so that works.) And it isn’t so much that there willo be few activities/fun, they will just be different. Small groups rather than large, which honestly suits S more anyway. He certainly likes the social/club life on campus, but he values the in-person instruction far more. Even with awesome profs who did on-line discussions this spring, he missed the in-person.

2771

"I mentioned somewhere recently that the Bowdoin President said that need blind could be at risk depending on the degree of financial suffering they experience. This from a school with solid financials and one of the largest LAC endowments."

They already do consider ability to pay, regardless of what they say to parents. A full pay student will be selected over a high-need student with identical academic qualifications even at ostensibly need blind schools. I’m surprised so many otherwise educated folks don’t understand this.

There will be the “but they are need blind, you understand what this means?” comments to my comment. Don’t be naive. They use very sophisticated analytics to serve as financial need proxies so technically, they aren’t “looking” at finances but the result is the same. Everyone goes along with this. The parents of the wealthy kids don’t want to believe their wonderful kids got an edge due to finances, so they ignore reality (same with legacy, affirmative action, etc.). The colleges can pretend they don’t look to maintain the illusion to parents and themselves. That’s just the reality folks.

2772

That’s why I said the college will plan for A but promise B when possible.

A lot of students will live off campus and feel like they can have a lot of social activities. I’m not sure how that will work out.

2773

They already do consider ability to pay, regardless of what they say to parents. A full pay student will be selected over a high-need student with identical academic qualifications even at ostensibly need blind schools. I’m surprised so many otherwise educated folks don’t understand this.

Do you have a source for this claim specifically to Bowdoin?

Sure, schools can and do infer family income level of a given applicant in many ways, but many need blind schools have no idea whether the applicant applied for FA, let alone their level of need if they did apply.

2774

When factoring in potential online classes, remember that full online classes in fall might look and feel a lot different from the thrown together end of year products some professors put out this spring. I have a friend who teaches. She had to learn all the
software and figure out how to get lectures recorded in a very short time. College gave lots of support but because of circumstances professors were encouraged to be lenient because of kids not having good WiFi, books with them, family issues, etc. If she has to teach online in the fall, the class will look different.

In preparing for fall, her classes (if needed to be online) will have much more interaction and the college has stricter requirements for how it will be taught with a lot more of the classes in real time.

Not to say tha most kids won’t prefer in person classes but if you go for a world class professor, he’s not changing because one semester you have online class. And he’s not worth less (and not costing college less). Someone mentioned option B as online classes but being on campus so ECs like clubs, Greek life, etc. That could also include in person meetings with professors, mentors and advisors who work with fellowship offices or lead UG research opportunities. There can still be a significant academic advantage to being on campus with on line classes. And if the online is just primarily for fall, you have had chance to develop these connections.

I think many schools will have a hybrid situation. I don’t see how that will hurt kids over the four years… after all, every freshman (and all actually) college student is in the same boat this year.

Side note- Every college is facing how to do things with a huge budget hit. For most it will cost more with all the accommodations they have to put in to keep everyone as safe as possible with some huge unknowns. It will not cost them less to offer online classes - so I’m kind of annoyed at the students who think they shouldn’t pay as much to attend because it’s not what they want.

2775

I realize this is our personal situation but the hybrid approach of larger classes online and smaller classes in person is gives me heartburn for my S next year.

He did not have a good online experience this spring. Next year he will be a sophomore and has decided on a double major, both of which have some large core intro classes before getting to the more interesting electives. Because he was exploring last year, he still has two of these to take in each major so in the fall he is registered for four large lectures (100-150 people) and only one small class. The lecture classes do have recitation sections which are small but overall this type of hybrid approach would leave him with very little actual classroom time - I calculate 7 hours per week, 3 for the small in person class and four recitation sections for the larger classes. Not ideal at all. I don’t have a solution and am not complaining but just know this will be a challenge for him. He learns best in the classroom.

2776

I think this is a oversimplification of why students choose certain colleges. It’s a complex decision. Below are some for the reasons D20 chose Duke:

  • top 3 in the nation for her major (Public Policy)
  • excellent on campus recruiting and alumni network
  • Students are taught by and doing research with best in class faculty (e.g. one professor who works for The NY Times flies to Durham each Thursday to teach a journalism class)
  • flexibility of changing her major and/or getting certificate/minor in special programs (e.g. Markets & Management)
  • Small class size with student / faculty 6/1
  • going to college with and interacting with her intellectual peers
  • meeting and working with people from all over the world.
  • inclusive and collaborative environment for learning
  • Big time school spirit and D1 sports
  • Flunch & Grunch where the college gives student money each semester to take professors and grad students out to lunch (i.e. get to really know your professors).
  • Duke Engage, the college pays for students to help other communities all over the world with special community service projects (building bridges in Bolivia)
  • participation in on campus clubs, Greek life, and specialized living groups (SLG)
  • making connections with students and possibly their connected families for future jobs and other opportunities.

I could go on but there is no one reason D20 chose her college, it’s the whole package that is important to her and of course she and we want her to get as much of the above as possible for the 4 years of her very impressionable life.

You cannot put it into A, B, or C boxes.

2777

My “A” was supposed to be inclusive of that, but it is the third level of evaluation that most parents and students here do not get to.

A0: Seems indifferent to academic content, even what majors are offered, perhaps under the mistaken impression that an undecided student need not be concerned (when s/he really should be concerned that any of his/her possible majors is offered well).

A1: Checks to see if the intended or (for undecided students) possible majors are offered (and possibly checking for external accreditation when applicable to the major). Probably about as far as most people on these forums get in this area.

A2: Checks curricular organization and required and elective upper level offerings in the intended or possible majors (may require assistance from someone knowledgeable in the field). May check for secondary admission or progression barriers (commonly overlooked, sometimes a surprise later when the student is denied entrance to or forced out of the major for not meeting a 3.5 or whatever college GPA after a year).

A3: Checks depth of content of specific courses, as you suggest doing. Rarely done by posters on these forums. Often, this information is difficult to access (and evaluation usually does require someone knowledgeable in the field).

Alongside, there is occasionally consideration of general education requirements at each college. But perhaps not often, since we see a lists that include both (for example) Brown and Harvey Mudd.

Probably should have just written “experience”, since I meant to include any and all aspects of the experience (residential versus commuter, class sizes, peer group, etc.).

2778

Probably should mention that it is pretty common here to use general prestige or things like SAT/ACT scores as a proxy for “peer group”, whether or not that is a good proxy for the what the particular student is looking for.

2779

We are in CT, and my DS20 has committed to UMass Amherst for the fall. I’ve been following this thread closely, and am very appreciative of so many different points of view and ideas. For us it’s fairly simple, and our thinking hasn’t changed much re: what S will do in the fall since this all began. He will be going to Umass in the fall in whatever form is safest at the time, given whatever options we are presented with. If that means 100% remote, we will all be disappointed, but we are also willing to accept it if that’s what is safest. We all have our own circumstances and decision process that we are going to need to go through on this one. Here’s ours:

UMass doesn’t allow deferrals—you have to reapply. If S defers a year and reapplies, he will be competing with the class of 2021 and every other 2020 who chose to defer. If he is accepted again at what is a pretty competitive school at Umass (Isenberg School of Management), he will likely lose his fairly significant 4 year merit offer given our oos status and the certain financial issues schools will be recovering from for a while. If he takes CC classes from home, he becomes an xfer student and isn’t eligible for merit anymore.

None of those options make financial sense for us. My husband and I are teachers (I teach 6th grade, DS teaches HS instrumental music). We are solidly middle class. Our DS received zero merit aid at UConn, making Umass with merit only slightly more expensive than the state flagship. We decided back in March that we are willing to pay this small difference over the life of his 4 year college experience in order to provide him with the chance to go to the school that he is excited about, and that we all feel is the best fit for him. We are not willing to risk losing his place and/or merit because the start to that experience may not be ideal.

Nothing is ideal right now, and we can’t make it that way for him. Not by keeping him home with limited options for a gap year given the reality of the pandemic. And certainly not by railing against how unfair it is. Do we feel that way? Of course. So does he. So we’ve encouraged him to express himself, get it out, mourn it, and then take a deep breath and move on. Move on to making decisions based on the realities of the pandemic and the realities of our financial means.

This is going to go on for as long as it goes on. We see value in him understanding and accepting that. Coming to accept that everything isn’t always going to be perfect for him in life is hard. However, learning that he can be resilient and have agency in how he approaches the inevitable challenges life will present him with? Sign us up for the adult that kid will become.

I realize everyone’s calculus is different, but this is where we are. And to be honest, once we made this decision with S to move forward with UMass regardless of whether it is the full on campus experience or not, the anxiety level in our home went down immediately. If he gets to live in Amherst, he’s psyched. If he has to be home and online, he will be ok and have something to look forward to. He has friends, his girlfriend, and his XC/track buddies—they will likely be home and in the same boat if things are virtual only, and he will probably be able to socialize with them in some fashion that is less restrictive than Is currently safe. He will register for whatever classes lend themselves best to an online format, and get some gen eds out of the way. He’s taken up the goal of watching the 100 most influential movies of all time, is playing his guitar more, and continues to go for a training run daily. He zooms with his coaches and his teammates. And he just seems happier. And that’s really what we want most for him at the end of the day.

2780

@CTCape I wish I could like your post more than once!

2781

Thank you for stating this, and for stating it so very well.