Expect relief from litigation in the form of legislation, like the doctors already got.
In most of East and Southeast Asia, the standard for separation is 1 meter (or just over 3 feet). Cities there are more crowded but almost everyone wears mask.
Not sure if this was directed at me? But, my thought is that each class would need to accommodate both in-person and online attendance, at the same time, unless and until all the students in that class are on-campus. Of course it’s not perfect, but as far as I can tell, there is no perfect solution.
As if we can wait that long… (yes, sarcasm.)
@socaldad2002 Roughly the same amount of their students are going to die whether they reopen or not. And like I said, they can relieve themselves of a lot of legal liability by making the return to campus “optional”. Also, I read that some universities are planning to let professors make the decision of being furloughed for a year if people return to campus, so that relieves them of a lot of liability as well. And the universities have been losing a lot of money just from closing this semester; any money they would lose from a lawsuit is likely to pale in comparison to what they would lose if they did not reopen next semester.
How do they make return to campus optional? They aren’t going to have online and in person class both available. Optional meaning the student can choose to take a break?
@homerdog See my post about UC-Irvine. Many of them are discussing recording lectures and making assignments able to complete remotely for people who don’t return (even though almost everybody would return, this relieves them of a lot of liability). UC-Irvine has already said that if they return, they will also make online classes available for anybody whose ability to return to campus is impeded.
Very true. The classroom crunch could be addressed partially by using more of the available scheduling slots (the dreaded 8 a.m. period, for example) as well as evenings and Saturdays. Maybe breakout sessions could be rotated between online and face to face so students could be accommodated some of the time. The broader point is that it doesn’t have to be all on line or all unmodified face to face. Maybe hybrid approaches could get kids back on campus faster while reducing risk.
This class at Berkeley has had more students enrolled than seats in the room for a long time. https://www.dailycal.org/2019/09/10/cs-61a-course-enrollment-reaches-an-all-time-high-at-2000-students/ Scenarios such as this might become more common.
My college student took a hybrid class last year where the lectures were online and small discussion sections were in person.
Many Stanford lectures are captured on video for students to view for many reasons: lecture hall full, student could not attend for some reason, or for students to replay for further study. That has been the case for years.
The virus is expected to be with us for years before there is a vaccine, and it will probably mutate anyway. I do think college students and their parents will have to choose to become less risk averse and repopulate dorms or opt for commuter/online learning if they prefer. Everyone else will be back to work or secondary school.
The problem is that there not enough good information about the risks.
Known information:
Ck = cases known
Hk = hospitalizations known
Dk = deaths known
Lk = recoveries with long term effects known
Unknown information:
Cu = cases undiagnosed
Du = deaths undiagnosed
Lu = recoveries with long term effects unknown
Ct = Ck + Cu = cases total
Dt = Dk + Du = deaths total
Lt = Lk + Lu = recoveries with long term effects total
Rs = (Hk + Dt + Lt - overlap) / Ct = risk of serious effects if infected
People may have high or low risk aversion, but with so much information unknown, it is not just about comparing Rs to how much risk you are willing to take, if you assume that you will be infected if you do not continue to social distance, etc… It is about guessing what the inputs to Rs are, and estimating the risk that each input is high or low.
Now consider that colleges considering options for next fall have the same unknowns that they have to consider in determining the risk level (to students, faculty, staff, and local community) of each possible action. Unless better information is forthcoming, colleges will have to rely on guesses and assumptions, which could easily be found to be incorrect later.
Was just on a webinar with a smaller, fairly rural LAC. One option they mentioned was in-person classes on campus (if the governor allows that) but international students and students from U.S hot spots would not be allowed on campus so they would offer remote learning for them. Not sure when they would determine whether or not you lived in a hot spot as they seem to be constantly changing.
They also mentioned closing some dorm rooms that would not give kids sufficient room to be 6 feet apart in the room. They have a lot of older dorms so the room configurations even within a dorm can really vary.
yes, we (parents, students and colleges) will all have to make the best decision we can with imperfect information and less than ideal conditions. Such is life.
@MAmom111 At my college most of the international students stayed on campus. Also I don’t know how that would work entirely because some people may not be staying in hot spots; I have a friend from NYC who is living in Idaho until this whole COVID-19 thing blows over.
This might be a valid assumption for small LACs but many of my D’s core academic classes are offered in multiple sections (2-5 per semester with 30-100 students each depending on the course) with different lecturers (ie not the typical format of TA sections for a single large lecture course which many colleges use).
One of these sections is often online (typically using pre-recorded lectures from a previous semester) and another may be an evening course for non-traditional students. She has taken quite a few of the online courses because of the in person classes conflicting with studio time and it has never been an issue.
So offering multiple sections in different formats is not an unknown concept everywhere. And at least in this case it will be easy to simply offer more of the sections online next semester if desired.
I also see letting certain students return but not others (internationals/students from U.S. hot spots) being very problematic, especially for LACs like mine that are very social justice-y; remote learning from home is vastly inferior to face-to-face learning on a college campus, and colleges know this. I think most students would take problem with certain students being disadvantaged in their education more than others because of their life circumstances. And that’s even before you get into the fact that underrepresented minorities are more likely to live in urban areas that are significantly more likely to become hot spots. So it is also a social justice issue.
Taped lectures are pretty common at some colleges. Some professors tape them so they can offer their courses to a wider audience (e.g. on Coursera or EdX). Some tape them so that their students can review the materials at a later time. Recorded lectures are also popular with students for that reason. A recorded course also make it possible for some students to take the class when its schedule conflicts with another class they’re taking.
A coupe of points.
- Students can’t categorically waive their rights to be on campus. For example. If you can show the college was negligent (e.g not taking necessary and reasonable safety measures) and students get very sick or die, class action lawsuits will be filed. I don’t think colleges want any part of COVID-19 lawsuits.
- I’m not sure you.can ban international students and students from virus hotspots. For example, CA and NY makeup a disproportionate number of students at many colleges. Colleges are not going to ban these students, especially if they are full pay. In addition, virus hotspots is a moving target. One week it’s NYC, the next week, it’s Detroit. And then once students are on campus, do you let them go home and come back during thanksgiving, winter break etc.
- in addition, I don’t see college giving students the option of in-person or online. Online students will demand significant tuition refunds if they are paying the same tuition as on campus students but getting a very watered down version of the college experience.
- the bottom line is that colleges will be very reluctant to open their campuses without the virus becoming significantly diminished next school year and the few cases they do have on campus can be easily addressed. Without that certainty, I’m afraid online instruction will be the new normal.
@socaldad2002 I agree with the second bullet point but none of the others. I’ve already given my take on your first bullet point and you clearly disagree, so I won’t try to debate that (though my mom is a lawyer and she says that this option would largely relieve them of liability). But with regard to the third point, the only reason it would be offered is to relieve the college of liability; almost nobody would do it. Plus UC-Irvine has already explicitly stated that is what they are going to do if they reopen in fall. With regard to the fourth point, that’s just life. Life is uncertain. And also, like some others in this thread have stated, they may pass laws or an executive order to relieve colleges of liability in the event that they reopen. I also don’t think you realize how many colleges cannot afford to be closed next semester. Most colleges are projecting more than $10M in losses from early cancellation of this semester alone, without reducing tuition and only partly refunding room and board. Colleges are going to feel the economic impact of this semester alone for years to come. There are a multitude of colleges that will never be reopening if they can’t reopen next semester.