School of General Studies: My Experience

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
1

<p>I'm a student at Columbia General Studies, I started last Fall.</p>

<p>GS students are seen exactly the same as all other undergrads. You are not treated as a second class citizen by students or faculty, or at least I haven't been. I have doubts that you would see anything similar of employers or graduate schools...</p>

<p>I don't have any experience with any other colleges (and I've only been here a year), so I don't have much to compare to, but I must say I certainly haven't been blown away by academic quality. Maybe other schools are terrible, I don't know... I've yet to meet anyone truly brilliant running around here and I frequently compare syllabi between courses I've taken here and those same courses at public schools. The outside syllabi often look more rigorous, and sometimes I feel like I've wasted the class by taking it here rather than somewhere stronger, but who knows, grass is always greener...</p>

<p>I've had some professors and graduate student instructors who have been very good, but I don't think that they're any better than what could be found at a good public school.</p>

<p>I often view the school as a project that needs to be improved. There are a lot of cool and interesting things that are absent that could be started here. However, that said, I'm not terribly interested in paying for the privilege of fixing things up.</p>

<p>As you may have noticed, I have problems with the lack of financial support for GS students. While the GS name might not preclude graduate school, GS debt certainly could. Think about it, close to 70-150k in non-dischargable private loans, sitting there festering while you make your way through graduate school. Depending on the type of graduate school, it could grow another 20-50k in interest just while you're there, and that's with today's low interest rates.</p>

<p>It's worth noting that many lower division courses are taught by graduate students, and a majority of those graduate students attended public colleges.</p>

<p>The GS administration is decent. Some in the office really believe in GS and attempt to set you up as best they can, with free tutoring in math/science courses and subsidized housing. It's unfortunate that the university administration at large still views GS as a profit center. It's especially irritating when you read e-mails from the administration about weak financial support while Gmail advertisements for the school appear in the sidebar. </p>

<p>What gets me is that this is one of the richest schools in the world. You're basically helping them get richer while they offer you an insulting level of support. They'll offer all sorts of ridiculous explanations as to why you pay one of the highest tuitions in the world to go to one of the richest and supposedly generous educational institutions in the world. Those explanations are what they seem, ridiculous. Lee Bollinger is clearly happy with the status quo, which I find amusing and ironic, as he seems to have enjoyed defining himself as a key player in liberalizing access to higher education. (See: University of Michigan, Lee Bollinger, Affirmative Action) I understand that GS has a very liberal admissions policy, and that the willingness to pony up acts as a filter for seriousness of sorts. However, I do not understand how they could possibly think it's fair to price discriminate once GS students have proven themselves. If you are sensitive at all to issues surrounding social justice, like I am, I wouldn't suggest attending here.</p>

<p>In Western society, we're trained to expect schools to be meritocratic safe havens of sorts. Work hard, do well and everything will work out in the end. Columbia GS breaks this model. No matter how hard you work, no matter how well you do, at the end of it you will be rewarded with crushing debt. </p>

<p>Be prepared to see the financial aid packages offered to younger students grow more lavish and generous year over year while the extremely weak level of support you receive remains largely static. Be prepared to expect about $400-500/mo in payments for every year you attend full time here. Beyond your own financial security (do you ever want to buy a house?), you might also want to consider that you will still be making these payments in 30 years time. Depending on how financially secure your family is, you may wish to think about if your folks will require financial support in old age and if you'll be able to provide it. </p>

<p>You may also want to consider that if New York is a draw for you, it would be very difficult to eek out a living here once you're done with school and saddled with GS debt payments, even with a high paying (>$100k/yr) job.</p>

<p>I know some GS students who are pursuing straight liberal arts degrees with great results and plans for academia who have been encouraged to transfer elsewhere by their professors based strictly on practical economic grounds. (It's a tough market for liberal arts professors and paying down GS style private loans on a liberal arts assistant professor salary would be next to impossible.)</p>

<p>GS students are a mixed bag. There are definitely some interesting people, a lot of rich people and a fair bit of crazy people. I suppose you have to have achieved a certain level of insanity in order to sign on for the sort of debt GS entails. A number of students I've met have mentioned that they've been making heavy use of the counseling and psychological services center, the debt stress is just far too much for them to handle. Often times I find it depressing when I meet GS students, some are very optimistic and truly believe that GS will afford them some upward social mobility. I often think they're naive to think they're going to ascend anything with a $50,000-$150,000 lb debt-weight attached. These encounters often make me very angry at GS and Columbia in general.</p>

<p>I want to be clear: If Columbia were to fix the financial support issue and offer support comparable to CC/SEAS for those who have proven themselves serious, I would have no issue with the school. When you're facing the sort of debt that GS is happy to help you pile on, you become a tad more critical.</p>

<p>Bottom line: I really think I made a mistake in coming here. I have really been soured by the whole experience and rue the day that I turned down the real opportunities that were offered to me by real universities that didn't seek to saddle me with extreme lifelong debt. I'm not only angry about the debt I'm accruing, I'm also angry about the debt that my fellow students are accruing and the fact that I'm supporting an enterprise that seeks to cynically extract as much as possible out of those who seek nothing more than to work hard and make a better life for themselves. It's a perversion of what academia is supposed to be about and I'm truly appalled that a so-called prestigious institution would stoop to such a level. </p>

<p>This has been my experience, your mileage may vary.</p>

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<p>^I read the whole post and think it is a very informative one. But at the same time I think it is filled with an idealism that not even academia can live upto in real life.</p>

<p>"However, that said, I'm not terribly interested in paying for the privilege of fixing things up."</p>

<p>this perfectly summarizes the general idealism in the whole thread, gs definitely should get financial aid (probably more than they currently get) but you would have to cipher funds away from elsewhere. The university is not one of the capitalist monster that you form in your head, it is not for profit, bollinger and all the staff have fixed salaries and there are no shareholders.
so in the long term ONLY the students can benefit if the university makes money. </p>

<p>The university thus will put money where it is most productive. Business school facilities are a great example, the more facilities they offer B-school students, the better students they attract, who will go on to make more money and donate more back, leaving more to the general population. Did you ever stop to think that had they not funded the business school in the 80s and 90s they would have much less money (from rich donations) for you and your financial aid? Like taxes it's a delicate balance between redistribution and preserving incentives. </p>

<p>No-one will ever officially tell you this, but if columbia does not view GS as as capable of returning on investment, then it won't invest as much, I just went through wiki's list of notable alumni and very few of them have made a lot of money (feel free to prove me wrong on this). But, if that's the case columbia isn't going to see much in the way of donations from them. So funding gs would be an unproductive business model, and in the long term columbia could hurt itself by doing so. I stand firmly in support of their way of doing things, because while it's hugely evil at face value the students can only and will always benefit from the more money that a university receives. </p>

<p>Giving all schools equal financial aid rights sounds just wonderful and would hurt columbia in the long run.</p>

<p>I thoroughly understand your predicament, and realize that low FA is a vicious cycle (low FA --> stupider students --> less donations --> lower FA). But ironically the way to increase FA in the long term is to divert most money to productive sources so that the pot becomes larger for everyone. </p>

<p>All your complaints about being saddled with lifelong debt are completely valid. it's burdensome and psychologically stressful i'm sure. Perhaps all this should be given due consideration before someone chooses to attend GS. </p>

<p>on academics though:</p>

<p>"The outside syllabi often look more rigorous, and sometimes I feel like I've wasted the class by taking it here rather than somewhere stronger, but who knows, grass is always greener..."</p>

<p>there's little to judge from looking at syllabi, a course that covers many topic with little depth or too few comprehensively is sub-optimal. Either way there's hardly anyway to judge from syllabi, you have to look at problem sets, exams and heck you have to actually sit in class and go over what's covered. Even hard tests and problem sets don't make a thorough class with a high level of learning and understanding. The students inside the class actually make a huge difference to the level of learning.</p>

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<p>Very interesting... I was accepted, and am considering going, to GS this Fall. Is it only the debt that you are concerned with? I could be naive, but I would think that a degree from Columbia (GS) would offset the debt incurred by allowing for a potentially higher salary.... At least for someone like myself who wishes to pursue graduate school (either business or law.) </p>

<p>Additionally, with respect to the academics, is it not the same as CC with the exception of a few classes? Wouldn't a complaint against academics apply to Columbia as a whole rather than only GS?</p>

<p>Anyone else have any insight? I am ready to send my deposit to GS, so any insight would be greatly appreciated.</p>

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<p>Well I would not pay 50k a year (tuiton + room and board) to attend Columbia because I could get a similar education and degree from a public state school at half the price or even less. But some people pay to attend Columbia because of the opportunities that the school can offer that other universities cannot: prestige, renown professors, connections to prominent alumni, job opportunities, internships, a diverse class of students from every state and country, location in NYC, etc... It just depends on how much Columbia can offer you that would make it worth your while. But because you are going to graduate school, I would think about how you will finance that too.</p>

<p>P.S.: I am only attending Columbia because I am on a near full scholarship. (Thank God for Financial Aid for Columbia College students.) I am not a GS student but I thought I would contribute my thoughts anyways.</p>

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<p>You'll find plenty of dumb people at every school, including HYP. It was pretty clear to me that attending Columbia would mostly open doors for me. At the undergrad level, I don't think it makes a huge difference whether an average professor teaches you calculus or some Nobel Laureate, it's not exactly rocket science. </p>

<p>I think the reason why you haven't met geniuses yet is because those guys tend to take classes that "normal" students don't take. If you meet a Rabi Scholar, for instance, I'm pretty sure you'll be impressed.</p>

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<p>"and I frequently compare syllabi between courses I've taken here and those same courses at public schools. "</p>

<p>Syllabi are going to be similar everywhere. It's the quality of your peers and professors that will vary and add value to the class. And yes, the kind of class matters. If you haven't met anyone "truly brilliant" at Columbia after a year, I'm truly sorry for you. I really do hope you meet some of them (in fact, there are a couple of individuals on this forum I could direct you to:))</p>

<p>That said, were you not aware of the debt you were going to incur by going to GS?</p>

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<p>This was a very insightful post. I'm currently wrestling with the 150K loan that Columbia would, or rather will entail (transfer undergrad from Canada, 12k of annual family income....got utterly ****ed by the system's loop).</p>

<p>But I also know that it will completely change my life and opportunities. I'm friends with many graduates from my school who are now night managers, or office assistants, barely breaking the 13$ an hour...even though they went for finance degrees. It's such a step up from my current situation/path that I just can't miss it.</p>

<p>So I'm gonna make the best of it. Getting a double major, struggle for the best grades possible, join a few clubs, network, get internships, apply for fellowships, all the while enjoying what NYC has to offer (and that I'll be able to afford) so that at the end I'll be able to say that it was worth it.</p>

<p>It's what you make of being there that counts, I'd say. Not the level of intellect of the people around you. What does that give exactly? The majority of them may not have cured a strain of ephathatis or recite latin philosophy in their spare time but let's face it, you likely don't either.</p>

<p>Friendly, driven people is enough to bloom in my opinion.</p>

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<p>OK... fair enough. Knocking the school academically was uncalled for as I'm pretty seriously unqualified to be doing so... It's true that most first year courses are composed of a LOT of variability and given that I'm not on any honors tracks, that compounds the issue.</p>

<p>I've been fortunate enough to have spent a lot of working time in environments where folks are not only incredibly sharp, but the environments themselves are very entrepreneurial. It's easy to forget that most students at Columbia, or any other college are just that, students, who haven't started to make their mark yet.</p>

<p>That said, the debt sentiment is very real. It drives me up the wall. Consider it a letter to myself a year ago. If someone else reads it and thinks "hey, I have a strong propensity to end up in that mindset," then perhaps it will help them make a more informed decision.</p>

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<p>Why do you still go?</p>

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<p>This is definitely a helpful thread. I am glad somone started it. I have been trying to decide on colleges too. One thing that I have noticed is that for middle bracket income families, most of the private colleges (Ivy freshmen the exception) are not offering that much money for FA. I am facing equal cost at a college in California and GS in NYC. While I do have access to excellent public colleges, they are very crowded and their quality is being questioned right now because of state budget issues. I do know where you are coming from, and it is definitely a hard choice. </p>

<p>If money were not an issue, how do you like the college overall, though?</p>

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<p>Why is it that all GS students feel the need to do is shamelessly complain? Is it not enough that one of the most outstanding universities in the world is offering you a second chance? Being saddled with debt isn't everyone's cup of tea, but what other university is going to offer you the same worldclass degree for someone with your background? Is that not the reason you chose columbia in the first place over other cheaper, public options? Maybe the pampered baby that you GS kids whine about so much is yourself.</p>

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<p>Colt45,</p>

<p>I for one got the same opportunities from another Ivy, and I only have to pay 2500 a year vs the like 45 grand I would have paid at GS. It is frustrating and I can't see how they are going to get a lot of good students when we can get the same opportunities for less elsewhere. </p>

<p>I'll be one less student donating money to Columbia in the future</p>

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<p>colt45,</p>

<p>cgsstudent brings up a very valid burden, people (perhaps) don't put enough thought into the decision because one never really knows what debt feels like until one is constrained by it. Imagine working your a$$ off, knowing you're only getting poorer and knowing that the longer you work in this institution the longer you'll have to work outside just to break even.</p>

<p>I completely see the idealism in cgsstudent's original post, but your post asks students to accept mediocrity or endorse low standards. GS has competition, (i think harvard has a competitor school), and even if it doesn't it should strive to offer it's students the best. We're all paying columbia through out noses afterall for their services, so I expect the education and facilities to be top notch. I'm not saying whether or not GS should be given more money, but students who have to take on large amounts of debt have every right to be angry; cgsstudent's original post was valuable.</p>

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<p>Colt45, You are right about Columbia being a top notch education and I do agree that it is worth the price. People are forgetting that just until recently, Ivy leagues cost the vast majority this price before, so I do not see how everyone is making such statements about the cost. I do think it is a bit harsh to describe it as a "second chance," though. The only reason I was not "qualified" to apply to CC was family illness that caused me to take 2 semesters off from college. As I am sure you are well aware of, that time off makes it impossible to apply to just about all of the Ivy universities, thus making a college such as GS my only realistic option for such an education.</p>

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<p>Serious question: does Columbia actually make a semi-decent ROI on GS? Why have it at all from an economic point of view?</p>

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<p>Good question. I don't know and have been thinking the same thing. After all, Columbia and the other Ivy universities have already said that this generous aid freshmen are seeing is not going to be forever. It isn't possible financially. I know they're rich, but that is partially because of the tuition they charge. Many of those students this year were very fortunate to have been accepted during this financial windfall.</p>

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<p>I never understood when attending an Ivy League institution became a right instead of a privilege. The OP's mentality is that he should be entitled to the same education as other Columbia students who broke their backs in high schools to get the letter of admission, and hes demanding it at a discount! Do the OP not understand that there are people out there who donate enough to have buildings named after them just for their kids to get in? </p>

<p>If anyone here were accepted into another school of the same caliber into their normal undergraduate programs, then I commend you. The choice should be very obvious for any informed individual: the real deal with financial aid over the Columbia extension with no aid. It's pretty obvious that the only people who ceaselessly whine about GS are those who did not have the first option when they were making this decision, and thus had to settle for GS. Now they are regretting their decision for putting money in the most prestigious option they had. No, I do not feel sorry for these spoiled individuals.</p>

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<p>Some of us did indeed "break our backs" in high school- and encountered obstacles entirely unrelated to our education that kept us from attending CC. And if we were admitted we are absolutely entitled to the same education as those just coming out of high school. Also, GS is not an extension school, it's an undergraduate college of Columbia University. Period. </p>

<p>Also, aid does get better eventually- I got a fairly large scholarship last year and expect the same this year.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
I never understood when attending an Ivy League institution became a right instead of a privilege. The OP's mentality is that he should be entitled to the same education as other Columbia students who broke their backs in high schools to get the letter of admission, and hes demanding it at a discount!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh please. If you honestly think that the noisy college admissions process is effective at selecting those who worked the hardest, then I can't really help you.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Do the OP not understand that there are people out there who donate enough to have buildings named after them just for their kids to get in?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wait, I thought the Ivy League was full of kids who broke their backs in high school. Surprise, surprise! There's also a not insignificant population of wealthy idiots!</p>

<p>
[quote]

If anyone here were accepted into another school of the same caliber into their normal undergraduate programs, then I commend you. The choice should be very obvious for any informed individual: the real deal with financial aid over the Columbia extension with no aid. It's pretty obvious that the only people who ceaselessly whine about GS are those who did not have the first option when they were making this decision, and thus had to settle for GS. Now they are regretting their decision for putting money in the most prestigious option they had. No, I do not feel sorry for these spoiled individuals.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Judging from your post history on here. (A strange obsession prestige, to the point of dissing some Ivy League schools) I wear your disdain with pride.</p>

<p>Although I must say that it's interesting to me that you implicitly place so much emphasis on achievements during high school. Those who tend to achieve the most at that period in their life tend to be those who have the most support (financial and otherwise) from their family. Socioeconomic background is not chosen or earned, it is arbitrarily assigned.</p>

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<p>Yes, either you work hard or you owe up and donate a building. Have you donated a building? Didn't think so. Don't complain about paying the normal tuition and appreciate the fact that they even let you in! </p>

<p>And yes, believe it or not, the college admissions process is as fair as it can get right now. Don't give me that bs about how you worked the hardest, but not in the ways that these schools wanted. There are students here who did come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, and fought through and managed to get into these schools on their own merit. DO NOT marginalize their achievements.</p>