Case was very generous for us, too. If you look at their website, you can figure out about how much merit aid you might expect, based upon your SATs and gpa.
My daughter is also a science and math oriented kid and the chance to do UG research and having no unintelligible TAās has tipped the scale against Uniās and for LACās .LOL. Itās all a matter of perspective, isnāt it?
Based on the parameters as given, I would agree with Rochester, Case, and Tulane and would add RPI (of course all are varying degrees of urban) but with one substantial caveat for all of them.A Half tuition scholarship at a $43K school does not bring tuition down to instate UC pricing. More like $28K. Also, I donāt know if you would consider those schools as they are all ranked below all three UCās you mentioned.
Of the merit schools ranked higher on USNWR than UCSD, the lottery effect comes in (for big scholarships) at WashU, Chicago, Rice, Vandy, and Emory. CMU (especially in a male dominated major) and Wake are a tiny bit more predictable. There are just a whole lot of kids chasing a very few carrots and a whole bunch of them have similar to better stats.
The only advice I can give it is to apply often and find someway to separate herself from the normal high stat app that they see. Good luck in your hunt, itās truly a bear of a task.
Edit: I agree wholeheartedly with Jackās post. That is an example of what I mean by āseparating herself from the normal high statā applicant. But in being true , that IS the lottery or more correctly the statistically indefinable trigger of the lottery effect. The same lottery effect that exists at HYP, only numerically this can be much worse.
Carnegie Mellonā¦
Curmudgeon (and everyone else);
ok, I thought LACs were more for liberal arts majors, and that is why we were focusing more on univ. Based on your comments, is that a wrong assumption?
And if so, where do I go on the internet to find which LACs/Univ offer merit aid, but also have departments strong in math and science? The schools donāt have to specialize in M/S, but at least have a good program in those areas. (since obviously, the first criterion should be finding a school that is a good match for dās interests, and not just going after the merit aid).
Lastly, for the schools people have mentioned, would D have higher tuition because she is out-of-state? And would tuition go to in-state levels after one year of schooling in that state?
Private school tuition is what it is regardless of residency. Out of state Public USUALLY stays out of state all four years with very restrictive criteria for shifting to in state.
Iām certainly no expert, but hereās my two cents:
Tuition is only higher for oos residents if you attend a state school. Privates are the same for everybody. I think (at least in PA) that the student has to have been a resident for at least 12 months before enrolling. There are specified ways to prove that you have been a resident. Also, minors under 21 are presumed to have the same domicile as the parents.
As to the Uni versus LAC conversation, Iāll try to answer it without getting descended on by hordes of Uni locusts.
LACās can be very strong in the Sciences with great opportunities for in depth research beginning freshman year. They can also be limited in breadth and depth of traditional courses. The key, it seems, to making an LAC education as fulfilling as possible is for a serious minded student to find a mentor or two or five doing labwork in a field that they find interesting. (On the school websites , go to the Departments, research the current research interests of the Profās and research projects of the students. It should give you a real feel for what is likely for your D.) There are sometimes summer research experiences (paid or no costs) that are offered that could really enhance a grad or professional school app. It appears from what we have found that the better LACās can (could? might?) provide a more personalized education for a motivated student (JMO, based on what we have learned from 16,000 miles of campus visits).
Some LACās also have liberal restrictions on double majoring, or non-traditional majors. My daughter seems to be interested n neuroscience but from the bio angle, not the psych angle. Most of her LACās provide either a major, or a combined major, or a ābuild your own majorā that accomodate her desires. Plus there are several upper level courses that provide ample opportunities to continue in-depth research.
Finally, it really is to each her own when it comes to finding that right place. Iād suggest some visits to LACās AFTER you research the possibilities of meaningful non-scut work lab opps at the school. If visits arenāt possible e-mail a student or prof that shares a common interest. They have been more than happy to share info with D (because she asked good questions and was genuinely interested).
"My daughter is also a science and math oriented kid and the chance to do UG research and having no unintelligible TAās has tipped the scale against Uniās and for LACās "
If her sci/math interest might lean towards engineering, Olin would certainly be worth looking into.
chrisd, donāt I wish. Olin is one incredible opp for any math science female (or male for that matter) interested in Engineering. What a remarkable undertaking.
My son is current freshman at Case. Received maximum merit aid of $24g. Full tuition is $28.4g this year. Case only gives a handful of full tuition scholarships, and those require financial need component. I know, because I asked if my S qualified for full tuition. We did not file FAFSA, hence he got the best merit he could. He also has NatMerit and another national scholarship that essentially covers tuition.
As for merit aid, I wish to point out that many schools say they give merit aid, but are not need blind. Case is genuinely need blind as the merit award was included in the EA acceptance well before FAFSA could be filed. Other schools my S applied waited for the FAFSA info before determining merit aid. That is not need blind in my opinion.
Also Case is a strong academic school for those students who take academics seriously. This is not a party school, but a tough academic school. That said, it sure sounds like the kids who attend study hard but still have fun.
Two other schools that might be worth looking at (without knowledge of their merit aid status, but only in terms of strong math/science programs) are Union College in Schenectady, NY & Smith College in MA. Both are LACs with engineering programs.
$24k is still a huge number. Congrats to your son! Do you mind sharing his approximate stats and awards so that we can get a feel for what such an award would require? Also, what was the remainder of the bill? $4,400 in Tuition remaining , how much were fees , room and board and all the other addons (ins.,lab fees, books, required computer,transportaton as all are included in COA) ? Iām guessing $15,600 +$4,400=$20k?
Case total expenses are āestimatedā as $38,000 this year. With my Sās scholarships, we will pay $12000 give or take. Doable, for us, especially when you look at the total price. S could have gone to many state schools on full Nat Merit ride, but was not interested, nor were we. Case was always his first choice, and an easy choice with the substantial merit aid.
Sonās stats:
Graduated 1 out 549 at large suburban high school
GPA: 4.9w/4.0 uw out on 4.0 scale
SAT: 1570
ACT: 34
SAT IIās: chem-790, math-800, writing-770
Took 10 AP classes, 5ās on all tests
ECās were mainly co-curricular, band and debate, but extensive involvement in both all 4 years.
Entered and won many regional/state math competitions since 4th grade
Had great teacher/mentor relationships for good recs
Majoring in chemical engineering.
Yes, momoffour, I agree with others who have posted that LACs (itās somewhat of a misnomer since they are perhaps better called Colleges of Arts and Sciences) can be quite strong in math/science.
As to ways to find strength in math/science, I am not sure there is a āguick and dirtyā way on the internet. Some suggestions [ul][<em>]using Premium edition of USNews, look at Top 100 for Undergraduate Engineering among non-doctoral colleges. There is usually going to be a strong correlation between strong engineering and strong math/science. [</em>]your Guidance office - if it is a good one - will often have resource books classifying schools by strength in different departments [<em>]narrow your list of āpossiblesā by other criteria and then go to the websites of the individual school to look at math/science offerings, what their ābraggingā rights are in these fields etc. - itās a slow process, but will identify schools like Bates, Wellesley, etc. etc. which are small LACs very strong in sciences [</em>]maybe your quickest Internet bet - start a thread here on cc with a title like Top Math/Science LACs/unis for student seeking merit aid; the knowledge and expertise on this forum is unparalleled [li] use books like Princeton Reviewās Top 3xx Colleges and check which majors are most popular. Very often the āmost popularā at the top schools are also the strong fields of study. [/ul]As to morphing out-of-state tuition to in-state after one year, there are a few (I donāt recall which) that do this, but very rare. Not sure if any of them are ātopā schools.
[/li]
Good luck and Keep us posted on your search!
Yep. That is EXACTLY what I expected. My kid with her 1470 (only sitting), val, 32 (only sitting) which puts her way over their 75th percentile on SAT (1420), class rank (68% top tenth), and ACT, would be facing off with your kid and many like him at Case in the Merit Wars. Iām not putting my kidās stats down. They are top 1% stats, especially for a math/science over English female butā¦look at the competition that exists for these top scholarships at a school ranked 37th by USNWR with a 71% acceptance rank. Itās awfully tough out here on the merit merry-go-round.
curmudgeon,
My son had great stats, but not quite as good as S of TheMom (still, top 1% of his class of >500ā¦tests were a little lower). He got $19,400. Also, a few of his classmates with lower stats than his also got $19,400. I think quite a few students must get that one, which is still a good amount.
lfk and everybody, my point is not to compare stats (and I donāt believe yours is either) . Heaven knows the OPās kid , my kid, your kid, TheMomās kid are all exceptional students worthy of admission and reasonable aid at all schools. Their hard work and ability shows in their stats. My point is that there are 1000ās of these kids chasing 100ās of opps. The odds are not what our GCās and other well meaning parents think. These schools consciously waggle these awards out there to attract our kids to apply and it works. They are attracted. There are just far more moths around far fewer lamps than anyone who has not researched the numbers realize. Chance favors the well prepared applicant. Part of being well prepared is knowing the rules of the game.
Although I agree that searching for undergraduate engineering will select out some LACs with strong science and math programs, there are many others that do not have engineering programs. Definitely pay the $$ to US News and World Report on-line Premium edition. Itās worth it to be able search for specific criteria, like specific majors, say in neuroscience. Also, since your child is a NMSF and will undoubtedly be a finalist, go to the nationalmerit.org website and get the list of schools that offer National Merit scholarships to students who attend. Some large state schools (Arizona State and Florida State, e.g.) offer great merit aid by the numbersā¦any student with XXX SAT and XXX GPA gets XXX $. There are also several LACs on the list which are strong in science (e.g. Rice in Houston and Brandeis in MA). Good luck!
I would agree Curm, because many schools that āofferā merit aid, really donāt. Kids like my S who takes his education very seriously, and did extremely well, deserve merit aid, but in todays college climate, need is more important than merit.
If you genuinely expect merit aid, ask for specifics at each college as to how many awards in each $$ amount listed are actually given. For example, Case indicates that a few students qualify for the ābigā merit award. Define few, please. I started asking those questions last year. I even asked what they did with the merit $$ offered to students who went elsewhere. (That is taken into account when making offers, that not all will be accepted, hence no extra $$ to negotiate out of them.) You may not get straight answers, but it doesnāt hurt to ask. The applicant pool these days is very strong. Ask where your student stands. You can still be anonymous at this early stage of the game.
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Right you are, curmudgeon. Knowing the rules of the game would have saved alot of stress and heartache in our house. We heard that spiel and believed what we wanted to believe, which turned out to be a big mistake. The next time, we will be much more discerning.
TheMomā¦I agree with you, but I could never understand about merit scholarships that depend also on need. What they really should be called in need scholarships given to the most academically qualified candidate. My son lost out on a company merit scholarship only because others demonstrated more needā¦go figure.