Schools making minority scholarships available to whites

Parents Forum
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<p><a href="http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/03/14/a1.minorityaid.0314.p1.php?section=nation_world%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/03/14/a1.minorityaid.0314.p1.php?section=nation_world&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Facing threats of litigation and pressure from Washington, colleges and universities nationwide are opening to white students hundreds of thousands of dollars in fellowships, scholarships and other programs previously aimed at minorities.

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The institutions are reacting to two 2003 Supreme Court cases on using race in admissions at the University of Michigan. Although the cases did not ban using race in admissions to higher education, they did leave the state of the law unclear, and with the changing composition of the court, some university and college officials fear legal challenges.

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Advocates of focused scholarships programs such as Theodore Shaw, president of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund Inc., challenge the notion that programs for minority students hurt whites.
<code>How is it that they conclude that the great evil in this country is discrimination against white people?'' Shaw asked.</code>Can I put that question any more pointedly? I struggle to find the words to do it because it's so stunning.''

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<p>This will never end...</p>

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<p>A slightly related story...</p>

<p>When I took my PSATs junior year, for some reason I thought it would be funny to check off the box for minority scholarships but mark myself down as a White female, thinking a computer would catch the error. But it didn't work that way.</p>

<p>This year, I found out I had been named a National Achievement Scholarship semi-finalist. My counselor, knowing that I was not Black, wouldn't give me the forms to fill out however. </p>

<p>The part that relates to this thread is that after I was named a semi-finalist, I got a flood of letters promising financial aid to schools. With my scores, I was eligible for $80,000 at U of Florida and similar amounts at other schools. Schools also waived my application fees and took other measures to recruit my application. [In my defense, I'd like to say that I didn't apply anywhere that offered me anything, because I knew it would not be fair.]</p>

<p>This got me thinking: why should I only deserve this money if I am Black? I had the same accomplishments and scores as a White student, and my family's income didn't change when they thought my skin was a different color. In my opinion, race should be disregarded in college admissions. If any advantage should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic status, which is SOMETIMES linked to race, but not always. In reality, scores and grades are more linked to family income than anything else. But, I don't believe in much government intervention, so I think schools should just have to disclose whether they take race into account, and students can make their own choices after that.</p>

<p>I think schools should be free to offer other opportunities to minority students once they get in, though.</p>

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<p>I guess the other part of the argument (which has been argued many, many times on CC) is that socioeconomic diversity is only one type of diversity... by bringing in racial minorities they are also exposing the students to different cultures. I know you can argue that being black is not a statement of your socioeconomic class, but it is likely that you had a very different experience growing up. </p>

<p>I'm not sure exactly how i feel about this issue, but i do go to a private school that is very interested in promoting specifically racial diversity... and i have to say that it has been interesting to see how this changes a traditionally white middle class school. I doubt that 20 years they would have been showing Crash to the school and having classes like equity, justice & race. having said all that, i agree that they shouldn't necessarily be eligible for special scholarships if they aren't financially needy. but then you run into the problem of why they would want to go to a predominantly white high school if they don't feel there is some incentive for them. ahh. this is hard.</p>

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<p>Yes, it is quite a difficult topic. I'm still not 100% about how I feel either, and I don't think I ever will be since it is so multi-faceted. </p>

<p>Just a thought-- coming from a public school that is just about half Black, half White, I don't think it necessarily promotes exposure to other cultures. For the most part, students from different races don't talk to eachother, or when they do it is unpleasant. This doesn't mean everyone doesn't have 5-10 friends from another race, but it is by far the exception and not the rule. A lot of this stems from the fact that there are more White students in Honors and AP courses and more Black students in regular courses.</p>

<p>We did a series of stories on this trend for the newspaper, and when we talked to kids of both races most said they would stick to the level of classes they were currently in (regardless of their ability to move up or need to move down) so they could stay with their friends. Sort of a vicious cycle: you don't make friends with others because they aren't in your classes, and you won't change classes because you don't want to be away from your friends.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, we weren't allowed to print the articles because they were deemed too sensitive for the eyes of the readers by our principal. So much for trying to investigate problems and inform others...</p>

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<p>Well, if your stats are very high like 1500+, they aren't achieved by that many "minority" ones. So it's not like <em>a lot</em> of them get the kind of offers you are apparently "eligible" for. That's also the very reason you got all those generous offers. Your scores were among the very best in that group. Probably very few beat you.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if whites and Asians (I guess "minority" really refers to the "underrepresented" ones) are also eligible, the funds they set up will be used up pretty quickly or they would have to raise the standards for eligibility (higher test score) just to keep the # awards the same (just so the funds can be substained). Either way, that kills the original purpose of those funds. The recipients will again be dominated by Asians and whites. In that scenario, you probably won't get the kind of offers you mentioned. You may get nothing. Those that got money will likely be the ones that have already swept other scholarships (winners take all).</p>

<p>I am not saying affirmative action of this kind is fair but our society is unfair as a whole to minority. To me, it's just as unfair for some of the whites to demand fair game in admission and scholarships but to be silent about/deny discrimination against minorities in workplaces, job opportunities, getting mortgage loans, or even presidency (LOL!)...etc. Seems to me some of them are loud about what they can't get "fairly" while taking all other hidden privileges they've been <em>unfairly</em> given for granted. </p>

<p><a href="http://northonline.sccd.ctc.edu/beginnings/Kendall.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://northonline.sccd.ctc.edu/beginnings/Kendall.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>i hate affirmative action when it's used in the college admissions process. i'm all for using a family's financial situation as a factor in the evaluation, and i really don't think anyone is going to disagree with me on that one. However, i personally feel that AA is just reverse racism. </p>

<p>yhere's this guy in my class- probably top 5 in our class (or should be, but our school has a weird ranking system), straight A's throughout hs, plays 2 varsity sports, parents work for high paying jobs (i think in the local government, but i'm not sure), is president of a couple of clubs, and basically gets along with everyone in my class.</p>

<p>he also happens to be black. however, he's basically lived the life of a WASP. he's never had to deal with struggling to find food for his family, had popularity problems because of race (actually, he's more accepted by the white people at our school than the black. figure that one out.), and has always been a favorite with our administration and teachers alike. </p>

<p>i've probably had more problems with being a non-christian in the south than he has being a black male in the south. where's my scholarship? oh, right, i'm white so that obviously means i haven't had any struggles whatsoever. sure.</p>

<p>why do people always have to assume that black people have overcome some sort of AMAZING struggle and deserve a scholarship for having a different color skin than i do? i mean, don't we all have someone prejudiced against us in one way or another? are people honestly suggesting that just because a person is black, that it makes him/her so different from the average person on the street? i can't believe people are so narrow-minded that they group people of color into a certain stereotype. if i were an african-american person, i would be offended.</p>

<p>i'm not talking about the poor black kids living in the bronx and i'm not talking about african immigrants- they're going to have a different lifestyle than the average american person. i'm talking about a person of color living the average american life. last time i checked, i honestly have only had 1 friend that actually came from africa and spoke 5 different native languages. the rest of my black friends live the same way i do- in a middle class family raised on mcdonalds and speaking english. </p>

<p>i'm not racist, but it's all about equal opportunity in the workforce, equal pay for the same amount of work, and equal chances for scholarships. i don't see how doing two wrongs is going to make anything right. that's all.</p>

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<p>whoaaa, sorry about that rant.</p>

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<p>please remember, though, what African-Americans had to put up with in this country for centuries. colleges i guess are trying to make it up to them?...</p>

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<p>fromdistantstar,</p>

<p>Let me ask you this: do you agree that ALL of the nicest neighborhoods in America are predominately white? I live in Los Angeles and I hardly see any black person in Beverly Hills (which is adjacent to my neighborhood). Los Angeles has what's known to be the most affluent black neighborhood in the country and it's Inglewood. I was there before and while it's nice, it's only equivalent to a decent middle-class white nieghborhood. That's how much the disparity is. You may very well know quite a few blacks that are pretty well-off. But that doesn't change the fact huge disparity exists as a whole. By the way, the poorest areas in Los Angeles are ALL predominately occupied by minorities.</p>

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<p>This wasnt addressed to me, but I feel the need to butt in (please excuse me):</p>

<p>I don't agree that every nice neighborhood is predominately White. There are plenty of well-to-do minority neighborhoods in Atlanta, where I live. (There are also plenty of areas where impoverish minorities live). However, there is an enormous population of poor rural Whites that receive no special consideration despite their devastatingly low incomes, and they are often ignored when discussing AA and its impact on White students.</p>

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<p>that's exactly what i'm trying to say, rhombus.</p>

<p>and sam lee:</p>

<p>i'm all for using a family's financial situation as a factor in the evaluation, and i really don't think anyone is going to disagree with me on that one. However, i personally feel that AA is just reverse racism.</p>

<p>i think that kind of covers it?
but that's also the kind of mentality that i hate. are you therefore saying that all white people live in rich neighborhoods and all black people live in poor neighborhoods? no. thats grouping a vast number of a population into one category and completely dismissing the exceptions.</p>

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<p>rhombus: "80,000 at U of Florida" is this all four years combined or for one year?</p>

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<p>And I would contend that middle-class and even upper-class minorities contend with obstacles in their weekly lives that their white counterparrts have no or only a dim knowledge of.</p>

<p>I don't think many whites of any class would choose to be African American, even upper middle class, to get the so-called advantages.</p>

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<p>TheDad, i'm sorry if you thought i was saying that minorities didn't have to contend with racial obstacles during their everyday life, but that's really not what i was saying at all.</p>

<p>i just don't see how those obstacles get in the way of the educational process. i live in the south and our administration and teachers are about 50% black and 50% white, so it's not like the teachers at my school discriminate against minorities or anything like that. if minorities continue to be in remedial classes, which is what aa is trying to defeat, i guess, it's not because of a skin color- it's more likely because of financial situation. </p>

<p>skin color doesn't determine intelligence. however, if you're getting off to a bad start because your family can't afford books/school supplies/everything else when you're little, chances are that you're not going to become top 10 in your class when you're older.</p>

<p>if your skin color really makes you that different from the average american, write it in one of your essays and let your struggle/personality shine through that. i wrote something like that for one of mine, and was accepted to 3 out of the 4 schools i applied to, and was deferred by the 4th.</p>

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i just don't see how those obstacles get in the way of the educational process.

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That rings completely true.</p>

<p>They get in the way of the educational process in everything from expectations of teachers and peers, expectations and assumptions just walking down the street or entering a store, and often even in middle-class minority families in the home cultural capital...the role modeling, etc.--that comes without thinking to white Anglo students matched in all other regards. Financial status is only a fraction of the overall handicap. It's like having to run a race with weights strapped to your ankles...some can do it anyway but it greatly decreases the odds.</p>

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<p>fromdistantstar</p>

<p>Okay, you are missing the point. It's not like I am totally okay with AA. I am just being ambivalent about it. I am also reminding people like you who are so vocal and self-righteous on AA because you, as a white person, feel unfair about "reverse discrimination" while seem pretty contented with everything else. That's where I find the hypocrisy annoying. Do you feel equally strong and unjust about the "white privilege"? How do you feel about the discrimination against minorities in other areas?? You ever think about how come almost no Asian actor is seen on prime-time shows? Do you feel as strong about them as you are about how "unfair" AA is? By the way, Asians aren't benefited by AA. They usually don't have legacies. I guess if anyone should be whinning, it should be them. </p>

<p>You were saying how AA should be based on socio-economic status as if this society is completely fair to all people regardless of race so that the socio-economic status got nothing to do with race. The fact is it does have a lot to do with it. Since you agree that the wealthy kids are the advantaged ones in the college admission and since white parents do have advantage over others in terms of accumulating/obtaining wealth, isn't it, without AA, that on average, white kids are getting unfair advantage in the process? And if so, AA then at least provides some sort of balance as far as "race-based" advantages go. The difference is the "white privilege" is difficult to quantify while AA is a tangible policy. But that doesn't make it fair and okay just because it's hard to be quantified. That's one of the reasons I am not totally against AA based on race. You also seem to be too simplistic about what the obstacles minorities face. It's more than just the financial situation. TheDad listed other aspects of the handicap that many underrepresented minorities face.</p>

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<p>Ok after reading this i just had to give my opinion. I myself am a low income Alaskan Native living in a rural area of Alaska. The way i have grown up and looked at the world is much different then yours. My race and culture is so much different then yours. Alaskan Natives and Native Americans in generally are not really "self focused", We have been raised to do what is good for the community not ourselves. The way school is taught is difficult for many Native Americans. Everything is taught in a way that we are not comfortable in. I myself have never felt like screaming out a answer even if i knew it. I do not like the fact that we do everything independently and compete for highest grade etc. This is one of the reasons that i think Native Americans are at such a high rate of dropping out. Completing school is so hard because it conflicts with our culture.</p>

<p>Another huge reason that i believe that AA is needed is because if you look at the location of where the majority of minorities are at. Look at many of the villages that Alaskan Natives are born into, reservations that Native Americans are born into, inner cities that many blacks and Hispanics are born into, what kind of education do you think they receive? How many good teachers are going to want to live in a small Alaskan village, reservation, or inner city when they could find a much better job?</p>

<p>You can argue that whites live there to but you need to look at the picture as a whole. I know on the top of my head that about 27% of Native Americans live in poverty compared to about 11% whites. Excuse me but that is sick. There should be no reason that this is happening but it is. I feel that the educational system in the United States has failed these minorities (including the poor). Education is the only way out of poverty yet we continue to put the worst schools in the areas that need the best.</p>

<p>I can tell you growing up I had no one there to support me, no one to tell me to keep going through the rough times. I didn’t have anyone to look up to, no hero, no source of inspiration and I fear that is the case with many minorities. My mother never even entered high school and no one really cared when my brother dropped out. I know most of your parents would throw a fit if you even considered dropping out but this happens all the time in my area. When a race has been systematically repressed for so many generations you cannot expect them to jump up compete at the same level. I believe that Lyndon Johnson summed it up nicely-
"You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: 'now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.' You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe you have been completely fair . . . This is the next and more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity—not just legal equity but human ability—not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result."</p>

<p>Sorry about the long post and many mistakes that are in it. Did not proof read it and wrote it quite fast. I just feel that you guys have never heard the other side of the story. You all have stories about the one or two Black or Hispanics at your school but you never consider the hundreds of others that do not have the same opportunities as you.</p>

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<p>jessy09: Four years combined, and they said there was a possibility of further merit or need-based aid. That's pretty much a full ride.</p>

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<p>Like George Clooney recently stated in an op-ed piece, I'm a liberal and proud of it. But.........</p>

<p>I am straddling some middle ground on the AA issue. In AA related decisions I believe that it should be demeaning to minorities to apply automatic AA criteria based on race alone. To a minority child growing up in upper or upper middle class surroungings with all the educational, cultural and social benefits that come with the territory, it is suggesting that they are disadvantaged because of race along, that they are somehow innately inferior. I say hogwash to that.</p>

<p>I believe that all AA related decisions should be based on a combination of race and socio-economic considerations. This would be far more effective in promotion diversity than merely race only considerations. </p>

<p>Some may say that this is not fair to white students. Well perhaps to some degree. But many colleges today take into consideration socio-economic factors when using income data in calculating need based finaid and using first generation college factors in the admissions process. And considering that the AA arguments are ususally waged most fiercely about the policies of the more elite institutions, these institutions are far more likely to have need blind policies which make AA based scholarships inconsequential to needy nonminority students.</p>

<p>Finally, I will be more sympathetic to AA detractors when they are similarly "outraged" at the advantages given to athletes, legacies and children of the rich and famous.</p>