Schools on the rise

College Search & Selection
41

<p>

That peak was a fluke, as I’m sure you’re aware. Caltech was #1 that year, as I recall. Duke belongs no higher than #5 and more accurately belongs somewhere in the #6-#9 range. Coming down from an abnormally high ranking signifies nothing, although I agree that Duke is not on the rise.</p>

<p>

“Arguably” the best? </p>

<p>Humanities – top 10 (NRC)
Biological sciences – top 10 (NRC)
Social sciences – top 20 (NRC)
Physical sciences – top 40 (NRC) <– Admittedly a weak point
Medicine – top 10 (USNWR)
Law – top 10 (USNWR)
Public policy – top 10 (USNWR)
Business – top 15 (USNWR)
Nursing – top 15 (USNWR)</p>

<p>Not to mention its Environment and Divinity schools, each of which has a claim to one of the top 2-3 spots in its field.</p>

<p>Duke trounces the other southern universities using pretty much any metric you can come up with, often by a comfortable margin. I’m unfazed by claims of “more of a undergraduate focus” at smaller universities like Rice, especially since those smaller universities actually have larger classes!</p>

<p>Granted, most of these differences exist solely on paper. I came within a hair of choosing Wake Forest over Duke a few years ago, and goodness knows I have spoken highly enough of the academics at Carolina. Ignoring the differences, however, can be problematic if you’re choosy about making comparisons. If you’re willing to say that no difference in academics exists between Northwestern and Harvard, then by all means, equate Duke to any of the southern universities.</p>

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<p>“Arguably” the best? </p>

<p>Humanities – top 10 (NRC)
Biological sciences – top 10 (NRC)
Social sciences – top 20 (NRC)
Physical sciences – top 40 (NRC) <– Admittedly a weak point
Medicine – top 10 (USNWR)
Law – top 10 (USNWR)
Public policy – top 10 (USNWR)
Business – top 15 (USNWR)
Nursing – top 15 (USNWR)</p>

<p>I can think of a state school that can make these same claims, actually even better ones, and yet it is not rated anywhere nearly as high as Duke. Then again, this same state school is rated higher academically than many of the so called “superior” schools listed above it at USNWR.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, I am aware.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Are you sure you want to use departmental rankings as the key metric to judge the quality of a school? By this measure, Duke is inferior to many of its peer institutions such as UChicago, UPenn, Cornell, Columbia, Northwestern, etc. Also, medicine, law, business, nursing, etc. are graduate schools which have little to no correlation to undergraduate quality.</p>

<p>Even if you were to argue that Duke is better than Rice (for it very well could be), is it really worth the extra tuition?? Especially if you get at least partial-tuition merit aid at Rice. If I had to choose, assuming equal costs, I’d probably choose Duke over Rice only because I prefer not to live in Texas, if I don’t have to.</p>

44

<p>

No need to wave your Michigan pom poms at me. I consider Michigan and Berkeley easily in the top 15 universities.</p>

<p>

Northwestern, no. Penn/Cornell/Columbia/Chicago, possibly. The facts don’t lie, and although I had a wonderful experience at Duke, it is certainly not Harvard and is not universally strong.</p>

<p>The differences between Duke and those universities, however, are much smaller than between Duke and the other southern universities (except UNC/UVA). Particularly in the other factors (test scores, graduate placement, library facilities, diversity, etc.), Duke is more on par with the Ivies than the other southern universities.</p>

<p>

“What if” situations are a dime a dozen. To answer your specific question, I would certainly take the merit aid at Rice. It’s a great school, and as I said earlier, I came exceedingly close to accepting a merit offer at Wake until Duke bumped up its FA offer.</p>

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<p>^^Business and nursing are not “graduate only” schools.</p>

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<p>“No need to wave your Michigan pom poms at me. I consider Michigan and Berkeley easily in the top 15 universities.”</p>

<p>Glad to see your affirmative response. Just relating this message to others who don’t.</p>

47

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t understand. You had a problem with my qualification: “arguably.” But then you go ahead and say: “quite possibly”??? </p>

<p>Look into any USN&WR, NRC, Gourman’s Report, etc. rankings and you’ll see that you need to UN-qualify your statement.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>I was referring to those at Duke. That should have been clear since I was replying to a post about Duke’s graduate (including business and nursing) rankings in the USN&WR.</p>

49

<p>

Ah, but that’s where things start to get murky. Duke is ranked higher than the other southern universities in nearly every A&S field. </p>

<p>That is not the case with Penn/Cornell/Chicago/et al, however – hence “possibly.” Columbia has the edge in art history; Duke has an edge in ecology. Penn has the edge in archaeology; Duke has the edge in religion. Cornell has the edge in linguistics; Duke has the edge in marine science. Chicago has the edge in cultural anthropology; Duke has the edge in biological anthropology. So on and so forth. </p>

<p>Taken as a whole, though, I would agree that Duke is weaker than those universities in terms of pure academic heft, just as I would say that those universities are weaker than Berkeley. Of course, that’s not conceding much. I wouldn’t mind admitting that I’m not as wealthy as Warren Buffett as long as I’m still one of the top 20 wealthiest Americans. ;)</p>

<p>As far as the distinction between undergraduate and graduate/professional programs goes, I don’t see why one needs to make that distinction in this context. You were referring to overall quality of the universities (i.e. “best school in the South”), so all programs should be considered.</p>

<p>EDIT: Apologies to the OP for taking this thread far from its original track.</p>

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</p>

<p>I only say “what if” because I didn’t apply to either school, so I am guessing what I would have done if I did. </p>

<p>My point that the differences in educational quality between Duke and Rice are negligible still stands.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I am glad you AGREE with me on this point. You also AGREED with me on the main point (of this thread) that Duke is a school which is not necessarily “on the rise.” So why are you being so nitpicky enough to throw this thread entirely off track?? Does every CC thread have to end up being about Duke???</p>

51

<p>

Intrigued, I immediately googled the following: “It’s all about X” (with X being the university).</p>

<p>2 Dartmouth
6 Harvard
7 Columbia
9 Berkeley
…
44,300 Duke</p>

<p>Either Google speaks truth or Duke supporters are awfully conceited. I’ll let you choose. ;)</p>

<p>

Getting back on track, I would add Florida, FSU, Northeastern, Clemson, and UW to my earlier list. As the other Claremonts increase significantly in selectivity, I predict a jump for Pitzer as well.</p>

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<p>I think what is missing from this discussion is that all of the schools just below the highest tier of HYPSM are on the rise, at least as it relates to their student quality. </p>

<p>Among the Southern colleges, while Duke has long been the clearest peer to the Ivies, the others (Emory, Rice, Vandy, Wake) have closed that gap almost completely, both in statistical terms and increasingly in reputation for undergraduate excellence. All of these schools are beneficiaries of the swell in high school graduates and, as a result, the difference in student quality attending the non-HYP Ivies and the top Southern privates is mostly indistinguishable. </p>

<p>Check out the numbers below and see if you can distinguish one from another. For context, I added the top publics of UC Berkeley, U Virginia, UCLA, U Michigan, and U North Carolina). </p>

<p>SAT CR 25 - SAT CR 75 , % scoring 700+ </p>

<p>650 - 760 , 58% , Non-HYP Ivy 1
680 - 770 , 64% , Non-HYP Ivy 2
630 - 730 , 41% , Non-HYP Ivy 3
660 - 770 , 65% , Non-HYP Ivy 4
650 - 740 , 52% , Non-HYP Ivy 5</p>

<p>660 - 760 , 60% , Top Southern Private 1
640 - 740 , 45% , Top Southern Private 2
650 - 750 , 53% , Top Southern Private 3
650 - 740 , 47% , Top Southern Private 4
610 - 690 , 25% , Top Southern Private 5</p>

<p>580 - 690 , 22% , Top Public 1
590 - 690 , 25% , Top Public 2
600 - 710 , 32% , Top Public 3
580 - 710 , 29% , Top Public 4
570 - 680 , 20% , Top Public 5</p>

<p>SAT Math 25 - SAT Math 75 , % scoring 700+ </p>

<p>670 - 780 , 66% , Non-HYP Ivy 1
680 - 780 , 66% , Non-HYP Ivy 2
670 - 770 , 64% , Non-HYP Ivy 3
670 - 780 , 67% , Non-HYP Ivy 4
680 - 780 , 70% , Non-HYP Ivy 5</p>

<p>680 - 780 , 68% , Top Southern Private 1
670 - 760 , 61% , Top Southern Private 2
670 - 780 , 65% , Top Southern Private 3
680 - 760 , 66% , Top Southern Private 4
630 - 710 , 33% , Top Southern Private 5</p>

<p>640 - 740 , 46% , Top Public 1
620 - 700 , 30% , Top Public 2
620 - 730 , 40% , Top Public 3
630 - 760 , 51% , Top Public 4
600 - 730 , 40% , Top Public 5</p>

<p>ACT 25 - ACT 75 , % scoring 30+ </p>

<p>28 - 33 , 66% , Non-HYP Ivy 1
29 - 34 , 73% , Non-HYP Ivy 2
29 - 33 , 69% , Non-HYP Ivy 3
29 - 34 , 73% , Non-HYP Ivy 4
30 - 33 , 76% , Non-HYP Ivy 5</p>

<p>30 - 34 , 75% , Top Southern Private 1
30 - 33 , 75% , Top Southern Private 2
30 - 34 , 79% , Top Southern Private 3
30 - 33 , 82% , Top Southern Private 4
27 - 31 , 42% , Top Southern Private 5</p>

<p>27 - 31 , 44% , Top Public 1
26 - 31 , 38% , Top Public 2
27 - 32 , 47% , Top Public 3
na - na , na , Top Public 4
25 - 31 , 39% , Top Public 5</p>

<p>Acceptance Rate </p>

<p>13.7% , Non-HYP Ivy 1
10.0% , Non-HYP Ivy 2
20.7% , Non-HYP Ivy 3
13.5% , Non-HYP Ivy 4
16.9% , Non-HYP Ivy 5</p>

<p>22.4% , Top Southern Private 1
26.6% , Top Southern Private 2
23.0% , Top Southern Private 3
25.3% , Top Southern Private 4
38.4% , Top Southern Private 5</p>

<p>42.2% , Top Public 1
34.0% , Top Public 2
36.7% , Top Public 3
21.6% , Top Public 4
22.8% , Top Public 5</p>

<p>As this relates to reputation in the academic world, I expect hell to freeze over before the historical powers will cede their place to the rednecks in the South and adjust any PA scores higher. </p>

<p>But ask the students about their academic experience and the response you get is:</p>

<p>GRADE OF A+</p>

<p>Dartmouth</p>

<p>GRADE OF A</p>

<p>Brown
Columbia
Duke
Emory
Rice
U Penn
Vanderbilt</p>

<p>GRADE OF A-</p>

<p>Cornell
U Virginia
UC Berkeley
UCLA</p>

<p>GRADE OF B+</p>

<p>U Michigan
U North Carolina
Wake Forest</p>

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<p>Regional Campuses (total increase) 25.7%</p>

<p>*Lima 35.4%
*Mansfield 54.3%
*Marion 17.2%
*Newark 27.6%</p>

<h2>*Wooster (ATI) -1.2%</h2>

<p>Main Campus - Columbus 27.4%</p>

<p>*For detail stats, please refer to the source article by Columbus Dispatch below.</p>

<p>Source: [OSU</a> regional campuses’ lower costs, small size draw students | The Columbus Dispatch](<a href=“http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/02/26/at-osu-but-not-columbus.html?sid=101#]OSU”>http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/02/26/at-osu-but-not-columbus.html?sid=101#)</p>

<p>Go Bucks! :)</p>

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<p>I agree with Wash U being on that list, not so sure about Emory.
The UC schools are DEFINITELY in trouble, as is the rest of that state…</p>

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<p>irishevan99, what are you referring to? I saw that link on Pg 3. and Emory is not in it.</p>

<p>Anyways, if you are saying that Emory is not a “school on the rise”… check its rankings over the years… from high 20s to as 9th once and now hovering at around 15-20… it has definitely gotten better… reputation has skyrocketed which explains why my some of my friends in Canada have heard of it when they havent heard of schools like NU, Wash U. etc.</p>

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<p>alam 1, the original thread post included</p>

<p>Will be falling:
Emory (lack of school spirit, many negative student experiences)
WashU (questionable admission policies)
Berkeley and UCLA (California budget cuts)</p>

57

<p>oh, my apologies.</p>

58

<p>Isn’t UMBC supposedly #1 according to USNWR?</p>

<p>"Top Up-and-Coming Schools
These colleges and universities were singled out as schools that have recently made the most promising and innovative changes in academics, faculty, students, campus, or facilities. </p>

<p>NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES</p>

<ol>
<li>Univ. of Md.–Baltimore County*</li>
<li>George Mason University (VA)</li>
<li>Northeastern University (MA)</li>
<li>Drexel University ¶</li>
<li>Arizona State University</li>
<li>University of Central Florida*</li>
<li>Ind. U.–Purdue–Indianapolis*</li>
<li>University of Denver (CO)</li>
<li>Univ. of Southern California</li>
<li>University of Vermont*</li>
<li>Clemson University (SC)</li>
<li>Emory University (GA)</li>
<li>Rice University (TX)</li>
<li>University of S.C.–Columbia</li>
<li>N.C. State University–Raleigh*</li>
<li>Ohio State U.–Columbus*</li>
<li>Univ. of California–San Diego*</li>
<li>University of Cincinnati (OH)</li>
<li>University of North Texas</li>
</ol>

<p>*Public</p>

<p>Source: US News & World Report America’s Best Colleges"</p>

<p>Now that wasn’t too difficult. And as you can see Emory and Rice are on that list.</p>

<p>[UMBC</a> Recognized as Up-and-Coming School](<a href=“http://www.umbc.edu/bestcolleges/up-and-coming-list.html]UMBC”>http://www.umbc.edu/bestcolleges/up-and-coming-list.html)</p>

59

<p>Whitman college.</p>

60

<p>oOo, interesting thread. i would add USC [california], U Rochester, & UW-Madison.</p>

<p>does anyone have any opinions on Boston University?</p>