Schools that guarantee to meet 100% of need (list)

<p>celloguy -- my son was admitted to Reed in 2001. He applied for financial aid and was determined to have financial need. Reed sent a letter and said that despite the need, they did not have funds for him and would offer only Stafford loans. They suggested that he double deposit with Reed and another school and said they would put him on a waitlist for financial aid - which presumeably might become available if enough students who were given aid did not come. They acknowledged that in order to meet full need, my son could expect a grant of around $15K. My son was not a borderline candidate - on the contrary, his SAT scores were very high and above the 75th percentile of students who enrolled that year, and his weighted GPA was above 4.2, with A's in all academic subjects. </p>

<p>I pulled the Reed common data set for 2001-2002, the year my son was accepted and didn't enroll:
<a href="http://web.reed.edu/ir/ReedCDS200102.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.reed.edu/ir/ReedCDS200102.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>What I can see is that Reed CLAIMS to have met 100% need that year, too. Now obviously they did not do so - since I know that my son was admitted; had need; and was turned down for aid. Nor is it the case that only students who got aid enrolled - the Reed data for that year is as follows:</p>

<p>*c) Number of students in line b [financial aid applicants] who were determined to have financial need</p>

<p>186 First Year / 743 All Students</p>

<p>d) Number of students in line c who received any financial aid</p>

<p>186 First Year / 672 All Students</p>

<p>e) Number of students in line d who received any need-based gift aid</p>

<p>186 First Year / 648 All Students </p>

<p>f) Number of students in line d who received any need-based self-help aid</p>

<p>186 First Year / 640 All Students</p>

<p>h) Number of students in line d whose need was fully met (exclude PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)</p>

<p>162 First Year / 631 All Students</p>

<p>i) On average, the percentage of need that was met of students who received any need-based aid. Exclude any resources that were awarded to replace EFC (PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)</p>

<p>100% First Year / 100% All Students*</p>

<hr>

<p>So basically the Reed CDS shows the same pattern 5 years ago, when I know for a fact that they did not meet full need of all eligible admitted students. They have numbers showing that only 87% of their first year students who received financial aid had their full need met, and yet claimed to meet 100% need "on average". </p>

<p>If the CDS is properly filled out, then in order to have 100% reflected in section i, the numbers in sections c & h (number of students determined to have need / number whose need was fully met) would also have to match. There is no way to arrive at 100% need met without that. (I can see how mathematically it would be possible if the number whose need was fully met were only slightly less than the number of qualifiers, but that isn't the case with Reed). </p>

<p>The 2005-2006 CDS shows Reed doing a somewhat better job in terms of comparing the numbers who get full need met with the numbers of qualifiers, but it still is far from a match. So I have to take that 100% in section i with a big tablespoon of salt: Reed wasn't meeting 100% need in 2001 but filed paperwork claiming that they did, so why should I believe a similar claim in 2005 when it is again contradicted by the numbers in the other fields? </p>

<p>Here's what I think: like most similarly ranked colleges, Reed uses enrollment management to leverage their aid. My son was turned down in 2001 because he made it clear that Reed was his top choice, and made statements in his application that unfortunately telegraphed the idea that he was one of those "come anyway" students. In 2001, they were far less selective - they admitted more than 71% of applicants that year and had only a 28.5% yield -- so they weren't in the business of turning anyone away. They were simply using enrollment management strategies to target aid dollars at those who were the least likely to attend without the money. </p>

<p>Now the selectivity & yield has changed a lot since then, so you may be right that Reed has now adopted a need-aware strategy of simply rejecting or waitlisting students who cannot be given aid -- but the 2005 CDS doesn't support that conclusion. It still shows by the raw numbers that Reed doesn't meet full need of all students who qualify. So my personal opinion is that Reed is probably still using enrollment management to determine who gets aid. As of 2006 it may be true that they are not admitting anyone whose need they can't meet -- we'll have to wait for next year's CDS to know for sure. But as of 2005, there were 8 first year students on campus who had a different story to tell. (My guess: I'll bet those were waitlisted students who were offered spots later, but told that there were no more funds available for financial aid -- that would be consistent with Reed's newly-stated policy)</p>

<p>The numbers do tell us one thing, though: Reed's enrollment management strategies are achieving the goal of attracting richer students. In 2001 there were 186 incoming needy students -- last year there were only 146 - so that is 40 LESS students they have to worry about. Shows that the need-aware policies are working for them.</p>

<p>Two daughters, one at Colgate, one at Holy Cross. Both had 100% of need met. Now, have two in college at the same time is still no bargain, but they both end up paying about 1/2 tuition each year. We equate this to what the cost of our State Universities would be where we would be expected to pay full tuition. At our state schools we would also have to pay for off campus housing for 2 to 3 years in a very high-rent area. All is all, we got what our EFC showed we would get.</p>

<p>Please go to the common data set URL provided. Now read the fine print: "Number of ENROLLED students receiving aid."</p>

<p>Your son didn't enroll, did he?</p>

<p>Okay, I'm not interested in wrangling the details. I've sent two kids to Reed -- the first, many years ago, got a special Solomon amendment grant because he was/is a conscientious objector and refused to register for the draft; his full need was met; my current Reedie had 100% of need met. But I'm not an auditor and I don't have access to Reed's files. I trust their data though.</p>

<p>Calmom, sorry, I'm so forgetful. I meant to reiterate (it's been mentioned before) that "private alternative loans" aren't included in the CDS under number of students whose need was fully met. What that means, I believe, is that a student who wins a private scholarship (as mine did) have that dollar amount subtracted from loans, workstudy, etc., and then from grant money from Reed. That's pretty standard practice at most colleges I think.</p>

<p>Here's the wording from the CDS:</p>

<p>"Number of students in line d whose need was fully met (exclude PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)"</p>

<p>So my take on this (and I'm not an expert, but it seems to make sense) is that the 24 students whose need was not fully met BY REED that year did in fact have their need met but some of the money came from private scholarships.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So my take on this (and I'm not an expert, but it seems to make sense) is that the 24 students whose need was not fully met BY REED that year did in fact have their need met but some of the money came from private scholarships.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>the 'average scholarship/grant' number in the common data set includes federal, state, institutional and external grants and scholarships. the distributions are outlined in the table immediately preceding the one at which youre looking. </p>

<p>looking over the numbers, it appears to me that someone simply did not follow the directions.</p>

<p>Okay, I admit I'm baffled. I had a hard time believing the Reed discrepancy was simply a careless error, so I looked at CDS Stanford and found the same apparent discrepancy (students determined to have need 690; students who received any aid 683; students whose need was fully met 608; percentage of need met of students who were awarded any need-based aid 100%). Clearly I'm missing something. We all seem to have a different interpretation of the data, and I'm just muddying the waters with my own guess.</p>

<p>Anybody actually know?</p>

<p>I am not disagreeing with Calmoms experience-but this is ours
I don't know if Reed decided they had more money by using their own finaid form, or if they acutally do gap.</p>

<p>I seriously thought that they met need 100% ( including loans)
Our daughter actually had lower scores and stats than Calmoms son, for teh same admitted year( 2001)
Her need was fully met- with grants and subsidized loans, for the FAFSA determined EFC ( which of course was still higher than the EFC would could swing wthout taking out loans)
It looks like since UNsubsidized Stafford loans still count as meeting need- then that may count for some?
I also know that my D has at least one friend who received a private scholarship for Reedies, that funded her room and board while Reed funded her tuition, so there are generous private scholarships ( that are merit & need based)
Some students on these boards are adverse to accepting loans and work study- but if they turn those things down- they really arent getting all their need met- but it was their choice- & I think it is reasonable to have subsidized loans or even unsubsidized if they don't qualify for subsidized loans- as part of finaid package</p>

<p>celloguy, a student who received an outside SCHOLARSHIP that is subtracted from their grant is still having 100% need met, because a scholarship is a gift of cash. If the college gave them $20K in grant money, they are still getting at least $20K, even though part of it is coming from another source. "Need" is what the student requires after considering all other assets, including money from outside scholarships. </p>

<p>The instructions on the CDS are "Number of students in line d whose need was fully met (exclude PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)" A private or unsubidized loan is not financial aid that can be counted to meet need because people have to PAY for loans -- and loans end up costing the person much more over the life of the loan. Anyone can get a loan. Heck, some people could put things all on a credit card at 18%+ interest. (And as stupid as that is, some people probably do).</p>

<p>The only exception is with government subsidized loans, because those loans are giving the person a benefit they could not get on the open market -- the government pays the interest for the student, and repayment is deferred until 6 months after the student is out of school. But the way that works is that it is also limited: the government caps the total amount that students can get via Stafford or Perkins loans. </p>

<p>I have no clue why Stanford numbers don't add up, either -- although Stanford does give some merit aid and athletic scholarships, so perhaps they have some need-qualifying students whose need is being met through their own merit programs. I could see subtracting out those students from the equation when the money is coming from the college itself, since the college has discretion over which pot to draw from - and the Stanford CDS says that 40 of the need-qualifiers received non-need based scholarship, and that it's average merit award is around $30K - so it's probably giving away a lot of full-tuition scholarships. But the Stanford numbers still don't add up - if you assume that each of the 40 got the full $30K and no longer had financial need, you still have a shortfall of more than 40 students who were found to qualify for need-based aid but did NOT have full need met. And unlike Reed, Stanford didn't take in enough students off its waitlist to account for the discrepency either. </p>

<p>So from my perspective, it looks like many colleges are fudging with the CDS data. I'm sure they have a rationale, but I'm just not sure it's an honest one, as opposed to creative accounting practices. I know that my at my daughter's college, Barnard, the CDS figures all reconcile - the same number of students who qualify for need based aid get their full need met, hence 100% makes sense. I also know that many colleges that do not meet full need also have numbers that kind of make sense -- they show something less than 100% in the final column, so you know that when they are coming up with an "average" they are including the students whose need was not met in that average -- even though there really is no way to check the underlying figures with the numbers given, and averages can be deceiving. </p>

<p>Maybe the answer is to add some better questions to the CDS -- such as asking them to chart the data as to grant levels and percentage of need met in the same way the chart SAT scores in Section C -- so you can get as sense of overall distribution. And the following two direct questions would be nice:
"Do you practice need-blind admissions for all students?"
"Do you guarantee to meet full need of all admitted students?" </p>

<p>Actually, my personal opinion is that colleges should be required to define "need" for purposes of the CDS as whatever the FAFSA EFC is -- in which case you would see a tremendous reduction in the number of colleges claiming to meet 100% need. But that is the only system that would give truly reliable, comparative numbers. It really makes no difference in the long run if college A meets 100% need and college B doesn't, if the two colleges can't agree on what "need" is. </p>

<p>For example, NYU does not meet full need of most its students, but NYU only uses the FAFSA -- so the EFC they aren't meeting is in many cases far less than the supposed EFC of some other college that claims to meet full need. So it may very well be that some other college can give a student whose parents are divorced homeowners a $10K aid package and claim to meet 100% need, whereas NYU (which is not counting home equity or the income of the non-custodial parent) can give the same student a $12K aid package and have that come out to meeting only 50% of need.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't know if Reed decided they had more money by using their own finaid form, or if they acutally do gap.

[/quote]
Reed told us in writing that we had need that they wouldn't meet. It wasn't a matter of them determining that the EFC differently - it was a letter that said that said that we would have unmet need and they (Reed) had inadequate recourses.</p>

<p>What has changed, I think, is this: </p>

<p>In 2001, Reed's admit rate was more than 70% - they had a very tiny waitlist, in part because after there weren't many qualified candidates left out of the 30% to fill a waitlist. Reed wasn't turning away any qualified candidates - they couldn't afford to. They also couldn't afford to give financial aid to everyone they admitted, so they didn't. </p>

<p>In 2005, Reed's admit rate had gone down to about 51%, and a huge waitlist. So now Reed can afford a need-aware policy where they waitlist (rather than reject) needy students. So they can meet need of all admitted students, save for the ones who accept unfunded spots off the waitlist, and still end up with less students who need aid than they had before. </p>

<p>Our situation wasn't unique -- the 2000 Fiske college guide said that it was common practice for Reed to maintain a financial aid waitlist - so historically that was how they handled it. The more recent Fiske guides don't say that any more, so obviously things have changed. When my son applied, he was told that Reed promised to meet full need of continuing students and ED students, but not RD admits -- at the time Reed was very forthcoming with that information. (But they obviously did not meet 100% need of candidates, as intimated in the 2001 CDS, because the reality is that they were not giving all admitted students full aid packages). </p>

<p>EK, I don't know what your situation was in 2001, but another possibility is that Reed turned my son down for aid precisely because he needed too much money. Maybe your daughter's need was substantially less, and maybe Reed was priortizing students who needed small packages over those who needed large ones, since the same amount of money could subsidize more students that way. </p>

<p>Or maybe your daughter applied ED? (in which case, at the time, they did promise to meet full need). </p>

<p>I really don't know. I just know that Reed wasn't then a 100% need school, and now it apparently is not a need-blind school -- so either way, it's not the best place for financially needy students to apply. That doesn't mean the needy students can't apply - it just means that they ought to have a good list of other schools where they know their financial situation won't count against them in the admissions decision.</p>

<p>Our EFC was about $13,000 ( we came up with $10,000- D added $3,000 from her summer job)
They covered beyond that with a small subsidized Stafford loan- a small subsidized Perkins loan ( $1,000) small amount of workstudy ( freshman year just a couple hours a week- after that I think she worked about 10 hours a week)
the rest was a grant.
She didn't apply ED- anywhere- she had only really been interested in Reed for a few months by the time she would have, had to apply & I didn't want her to be forced to attend.</p>

<p>Even though they met need, it still was a decision between Reed and Evergreen.</p>

<p>We were really newbies at applying to schools.
Because D wasn't a recent graduate ( she took a year off after high school) we didn't have the high school counselor to ask questions of- although I read alot on line- it was mostly about trying to find a school that fit- I tried not to think about the money too much.</p>

<p>We already had known that she was accepted into 4 colleges from the year before- 3 instate publics which would cost us around our $13,000 EFC, although actually a little less with some merit aid & lower room and board costs.</p>

<p>So we already guessed about what we would be spending- the out of state public was a little more expensive- did offer merit- but she didn't really want to attend anyway- she just applied cause I made her- because it had good depts in her major.</p>

<p>We were fairly lucky cause she liked Reed, but it was a late comer to the college pool- if she got in great- AND if they offered enough money to attend- then she would go there- we really couldn't have come up with more than we were already.
But we also really liked Evergreen- a lot, and it certainly was very affordable as an instate liberal arts college- plus offered her merit aid.</p>

<p>This was prior to CC and I knew nothing about applying to more than one private school so they could compete with offers, the benefits of applying ED, or even having a couple school so you could compare packages</p>

<p>Of course that was then- this is now-
THe students all joke that they would never be able to be admitted now- which is a shame- because the thing we really liked about Reed was that they didn't just go by numbers and we felt like even though it was a long shot- that she still had a chance.</p>

<p>The Stanford anomoly (discussed above) led me to take a journey through other common data sets, to explore how data is presented. I pulled up every CDS for a so-called 100% need school that was readily available via a Google search, until I had looked at 10. In every one of those, the numerical entry for "number of students determined to have need" was identical to the entry for "number of students whose need was fully met" -- as I would have expected. </p>

<p>I also found, through reading the instructions for the CDS, that my speculation that Stanford's merit aid or athletic scholarships accounted for some of the discrepency was likely erroneous. The instructions specify that where need is met in whole or in part from non-need based sources, that is to be counted as need-based aid for purposes of the form. </p>

<p>So I can think of no logical basis for why a college would have a numerical discrepency between the number of students having need, and the number whose need was fully met, unless (a) the college does not in fact meet full need of all eligible students, or (b) the college staff does not know how to properly fill out the form. </p>

<p>FWIW, Stanford does not claim to meet full need of all its applicants on its web site or in its financial aid handbooks, so (a) is a very real possibility. If I redraw the list of schools, I'm leaving Stanford off absent evidence to the contrary. (This is rank speculation on my part, but in reading the Stanford financial aid handbook it occured to me that Cal Grant eligibility may play a role. The financial aid handbook specifically says that the expected Cal Grant amount, of approx. $9000, is calculated in determining aid awards. However, many families who qualify for need via the FAFSA do not qualify for Cal Grants, because of the Cal Grant's income and asset ceilings. Also, some students might simply miss the March 2 deadline for filing for a Cal Grant. So it is possible that Stanford simply is not willing to fill the gap left when a California resident either fails to secure a Cal Grant for which he/she is eligible, or is found to be ineligible for financial reasons. While this is total speculation on my part, I do see the logic in such a policy - why should Stanford pick up the tab for some kid who doesn't bother to submit the one-page Cal Grant form on time? )</p>

<p>Anyway, here are my information sources.</p>

<p>College data sets that I looked at:</p>

<p>Princeton - <a href="http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2005.pdf&lt;/a>
Dartmouth - <a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/CDS2005_2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/CDS2005_2006.pdf&lt;/a>
Yale - <a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds.pdf&lt;/a>
Cornell - <a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000297.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000297.pdf&lt;/a>
Northwestern - <a href="http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2004-05/h.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2004-05/h.htm&lt;/a>
MIT - <a href="http://web.mit.edu/ir/cds/2006/h.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/ir/cds/2006/h.html&lt;/a>
Williams - <a href="http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/2005-06cds.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/admin/provost/ir/2005-06cds.pdf&lt;/a>
Amherst - <a href="http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2005/H_Financial_Aid.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amherst.edu/about_amh/cds/2005/H_Financial_Aid.pdf&lt;/a>
Swarthmore - <a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/cds2005.pdf&lt;/a>
Carleton - <a href="http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/assets/CDS2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/assets/CDS2005.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Relevant CDS instructions & definitions:
[quote]
"Aid that is non-need-based but that was used to meet need should be reported in the need-based aid column."</p>

<p>"Need-based aid: College-funded or college-administered award from institutional, state, federal, or other sources for which a student must have financial need to qualify. This includes both institutional and noninstitutional student aid (grants, jobs, and loans)."</p>

<p>"Non-need-based scholarship or grant aid: Scholarships and grants, gifts, or merit-based aid from institutional, state, federal, or other sources (including unrestricted funds or gifts and endowment income) awarded solely on the basis of academic achievement, merit, or any other non-need-based reason. When reporting questions H1 and H2, non-need-based aid that is used to meet need should be counted as need-based aid."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>*the college staff does not know how to properly fill out the form. *</p>

<p>Well I have to tell ya
Ya know how my daughter took a year off?
She volunteered but also recieved a living stipend that she paid tax on.
I was told by CityYear how to fill out FAFSA and put it in right schedule.
Reed changed it in teh FAFSA twice- and it was only when I got the finaid person from Evergreen ( who had dealt with the stipends before) to explain to them how do it - that it was left in the correct ( where I had it in the first place- thank you very much), place</p>

<p>EK, I don't know -- maybe Reed just liked your daughter better because she had a more interesting profile than a kid coming straight out of high school. As you say, it wasn't all numbers based in those days -- just because my son's numbers were high, doesn't mean they would have prioritized him that highly for aid dollars. Maybe Reed liked the idea of a student with the maturity gained from a gap year, or they really like what your daughter was doing with her gap year - and my son just looked like a typical high-stat applicant with all the right AP courses -- my son really didn't have anything significant in the way of EC's - a couple of hundred hours of community service but nothing remarkable; a month spent overseas; and a part-time job at the local pizza joint. Maybe City Year really trumps that. </p>

<p>I think it goes back to the "come anyway" admits that Nwestmom referred to. Reed's financial aid people were extremely demanding of me, asking for all sorts of information that didn't exist - for example, I am a self-employed freelancer who works from home, and Reed kept insisting on my providing a business valuation and seemed very unhappy with the numbers I did give them. So maybe they just figured erroneously that between two self-employed parents with professional degrees, there was money hidden away somewhere that would materialize for a kid who said he was desperate to attend their school. (At the time my finances were much worse than they are even now as I had some rough years post-divorce and prioritized getting out of debt, so whatever I did earn had gone into trying to pay down credit cards. The thing that really saved me financially was when California real estate started to skyrocket, and with a higher equity I was finally able to refi my home and pay off the credit cards in 2000, after having been turned down for credit repeatedly in previous years. So Reed was looking at my numbers for the first year I even had my head above water financially.)</p>

<p>In any case, the fact is that Reed gives good financial aid to some students but not to all. I haven't really looked at the policies of all the schools that were listed as 100% need, but the list really shouldn't include colleges that are need-aware in their admission policies: it's not that hard to meet full need of all admitted students if the college is rejecting some students on the basis of need. I don't have a problem with the policy per se -- that is, I think private colleges ought to be free to do whatever they want with their money -- but I think that the 100% need list probably needs to be refined down to 100% need + need blind for purposes of accuracy. There is not much difference when it comes down to it if a student can't attend because of inadequate aid, or if the student can't attend because he was rejected -- in fact, IMHO, the policy of rejection is worse, because that takes away the student's ability to make a choice and look for alternative sources of financing like private scholarships, and it also has the effect of discouraging some needy students from applying for aid because they fear it will hurt their chances of getting in.</p>

<p>Calmom, Is it possible that Reed thought your S was using them as a safety? I have not read all of the posts in this thread, so I may sound like I am coming from left field, but just a thought. My son got zip from a school that was definitely a safety on paper (he also may very well have attended if they were in line with money). He did not get awarded grants (need was met through loans- stafford and perkins) and he was not offered merit aid. I did expect merit aid, if nothing else, b/c over 20% are awarded merit aid at that school.</p>

<p>No, he told Reed they were his first choice and essentially indicated he desparately wanted to attend, and took time off from school during his senior year to visit the campus for an overnight in March, prior to the admissions decision -- he spent a night on campus, visited, came back very enthusiastic. At that point he hadn't visited any other colleges. Plus we had made a bunch of calls trying to persuade the admissions rep to arrange a local interview when she was in the area visiting other schools (but not my son's). </p>

<p>The "come anyway" theory is the only on that makes any sense. </p>

<p>I don't think Reed could have been viewed as a safety anyway, despite the 70% admit rate at the time -- I do think that Reed likely has a strongly self-selecting applicant pool, so they don't get apps from too many slackers. </p>

<p>Anyway, the point isn't whether or not the gave my kid money; the point is that in 2001 there were a lot of admitted kids who weren't given any financial aid beyond loans -- I know my son wasn't the only one.</p>

<p>As others have pointed out-"meeting full need" is a rather bogus claim as the schools themselves determine what "full need is".In my D's case there was a 50k difference (over 4 years) between what 1 "full need" school offered her vis-a vis what another "full need" offered
In fact one school offered her (combination merit and need) 80k more over what the supposed "full need" school offered her.Those were rather startling numbers to me.</p>

<p>My daughters two choices were Evergreen- cost about $13,000 but with merit school based aid- and a governors scholarship it would have been about $10,000 a year
compare that to where she ended up attending Reed college- which cost us about $13,000 a year- but actually more than that, because she received subsidized loans
So the total cost for Reed was about $52,000- money that was paid up front and about $14,000 in loans- compared to at Evergreen would have been $40,000 assuming the merit aid was for all four years.
Hmm never looked at it that way before
However-she did get quite a rigourous education and since she wants to go to grad school- I am hoping the process of writing the thesis was worth the $26,000 difference ;)</p>

<p>except I should add- that at public schools- the tuition goes up according to the tax base- not to mention the state scholarship was discontinued- so Evergreen would have cost us more
I feel bad about Calmoms son experience with Reed, but even though their tuition went up, they also increased the grant money, so that it wasn't above our EFC
I have heard though- about other students who felt they got pretty crappy aid from Reed-
I admit it was hard to deal with the fact that our FAFSA EFC was so high .
It was definitely not something we could deal with with income or even income and savings.
That is probably one of the biggest shockers for parents.
Probably why so many fairly well off families that we know, send their kids to instate colleges, its difficult enough to deal with the full cost of instate, let alone an out of state college ( really not realistic for most).
I have a lot of friends with kids a year younger than my 16 yr old.
THeir kids want to attend california public schools.
I have tried to advise them that really, athletic or merit scholarships for out of state students are not tht realistic.
BUt I am afraid that since we have lower income than they and we managed to send our D to Reed, they figure that teh Cal schools couldn't be * that expensive*</p>

<p>We have to define our terms. "Full-need" can be a little vague, because colleges can use the federal or institutional methods (or a combination of methods) of defining EFC. This is not a big secret though. Parents can run both numbers through an EFC calculator. The family that was offered 50K in merit aid (by definition, not need-based) got a signing bonus -- a questionable practice colleges use to boost their stats and ratings. For the family of course, that's pure bliss. For the college, it's pretty blissed too because they'll raise their ratings and probably bring in MORE dollars by offering merit as bait. What remains is the ethical question: Is the common good served by directing scholarship dollars to those who need it least?</p>

<p>Let me try to deliniate the difference, just to explain the value of assembling a list of 100% need/ need-blind colleges. We all agree that "need" is what the college defines, and parents may be very disappointed with how the colleges sees their need. </p>

<p>Even if the 100% need college award is disappointing, the family knows that the college will continue to calculate EFC the same way over 4 years, and continue to meet that amount. So the family is protected against tuition increases or reductions in their own income; if the EFC is initially high because of a significant amount of savings in the child's name, then the EFC will go down as the child spends the money. </p>

<p>Any award not based on need, or which is need-based at a school that doesn't promise to meet full need, is not subject to the same protection. A merit award may be based on the student achieving a certain GPA, which is probably higher than the bare minimum needed to remain in good standing. So poor grades one semester can result in loss of the award. A need based award at a college that does not promise to meet full need may not increase to compensate for tuition increases or family financial setbacks.</p>

<p>If the college is need-aware in its admission policies, then all of it may not matter. It is very true that the need-aware college may give the student a better aid package than the need-blind college -- after all, the ad com was aware of the need coming in, and they wanted the student anyway. So certainly students should apply to need-aware colleges where they know they are strong candidates. </p>

<p>But need-aware + reach college is not such a good combination. My daughter was just that sort of candidate: weak test scores, lopsided candidate. If Barnard or Chicago had been need-aware, would they have accepted her? Does an ad com at a need aware college ever say, "we're not sure about this candidate, but we like her,so let's take a risk"? or does the conversation turn into, "we're not sure about this candidate; we like her, but is she worth $25K a year to us?"</p>

<p>There are a lot of kids who get into need-blind colleges that are reaches and they can afford to attend because of the 100% need policies. And there are a lot of kids who get into reach colleges that don't promise to meet full need -- like NYU -- and they simply can't afford to attend. It's useful to know where the college is likely to fit before applying.</p>

<p>celloguy, re your question of 6/20, I'm not a pro by any means, but I think I understand the discrepancy, at least in Reed's case. Reed's web-site policy: "Reed meets 100% of demonstrated need for every admitted student who meets all admission and financial aid application deadlines." This is what is important for applicants to understand, and Reed means it, so they put "100%" on the CDS as a proper reflection of policy. But the key is "deadlines." Instead of throwing out paperwork that arrives after deadlines, Reed keeps processing, but these students are not guaranteed funding, and may well be guaranteed no funding, but are invited to "come anyway" if they can. The latest CDS H2 c) shows 177 freshmen with need, and h) shows 158 whose need was fully met. The other 19 missed the deadlines but were invited to "come anyway" and came, with seven of them receiving some aid from remaining budget.</p>

<p>Some will feel that the CDS percentage should reflect "actual" including those who file late; the CDS form could be expanded to cover such cases, but I suppose it's considered complex enough already.</p>

<p>Then there is the question of gapping. Reed does not gap those with on-time paperwork, but may gap (or not fund at all) late filers who are admitted.</p>

<p>I hope this helps!</p>