<p>Dean Brady - You indicate above that SHC's average SAT "this past year was right around 1450," presumably referring to the incoming class for the fall 2007. However, the SHC Brochure indicates that the SAT range for the middle 50 percent of students was 13601470 which averages to 1415 and is substantially lower than 1450. This is a surprisingly large discrepancy given a sample size of 300. (For instance, from the Annual Report '06 for the fall 2006 class the average SAT is 1429 and the middle 50 percent is 1380-1480 which averages to 1430.) The average SAT reported for fall 2005 and 2006 is 1428 and 1429, respectively. For fall 2007, an average SAT of 1450 would be a pleasant increase, but 1415 would be a disappointing decline. Can you clarify this apparent discrepancy?</p>
<p>onendone-
You cannot simply average the 25 and 75 numbers together to get an average of 1415. The 25-75 numbers just indicate the middle 50% but not the distribution, mean, mode, or median of the acceptees.</p>
<p>karp4170 - You are correct; I have assumed a relatively normal distribution of scores. Given a relatively normal distribution, the mean of the 25th and 75th percentile scores will closely approximate the median, which in turn will closely approximate the mean, as occurred in the 2006 data. A data set with a mean of 1450 and a middle 50% range of 13601470 would suggest a very abnormal distribution, and one I would like to know more about. Alternatively, one (or more) of the numbers may simply be a typo. I am seeking a clarification based on the data, which is why I addressed the question to Dean Brady.</p>
<p>this is some intense speculation right here--just chill, the letters are coming in 4 days!</p>
<p>yeah xD who cares, a 1415 and a 1450 can be a difference of 2 questions :P</p>
<p>onendone - I will be the first to tell you that statistics is not my thing. Need some Hebrew or Aramaic translated? Let's talk. :-) </p>
<p>I was being general in my statements and karp4170 is correct, there are issues with working with middle 50%, etc. I want to reiterate what I said earlier which is that SATs are NOT a criteria for admissions. We track and report them only retroactively. </p>
<p>We may see a slight drop in our SAT scores as a result of these changes. But I do not believe we will see a drop in the quality of our students. SATs have never been a very good indicator of academic success, certainly no better than a good examination of transcripts and grades, and tells us nothing about the quality and character of students. That is why we place such an emphasis upon the essays, the transcript and the letters of support. </p>
<p>annie222 - the letters are going out right now, even as I type. I wish everyone all the best in their academic future!</p>
<p>Dean Brady,</p>
<p>Given that the hs transcript may be taking on greater importance, will overall gpa or difficulty of curriculum be most important? My hs sophomore daughter is in the process of making course selections for next year and this has come up. For example, would you rather see more AP subjects with some B's or would you rather see fewer AP courses with more A's? Not that this will necessarily be a trade-off, but it might be. I remember when my son was applying to college, a tally of the honors and AP courses was often requested. </p>
<p>My concern as a parent is for her to (1) be challanged, (2) build a solid foundation for higher level classes, and (3) to have time for music and sports extracurriulars that are important to her, as well as to sample some new academic areas.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>lkf725 - That is a very difficult question to answer since it will ultimately depend upon each student and what their school offers. Certainly the strength of the applications we receive means that students with a strong schedule <em>and</em> a high GPA are the most likely to be admitted. When reviewing a transcript we consider: (A) The strength of the schedule, in other words, did the student take the most challenging courses offered by that school? (B) Which courses were taken as honors/IB/AP? If the student applies for science but didn't take any challenging courses in science, physics, or math then that is flag. (C) How are the student's grades relative to that school.</p>
<p>I realize that is not a direct answer to your question but I hope that gives you some sense of context for what we consider. I want to also say that I strongly affirm your own concerns that your child should have a well rounded and balanced life.</p>
<p>Thank you again, Dean Brady. We all appreciate the time you are taking to answer our questions! :)</p>
<p>i got into schreyers honors college and received 3500 for each year...i was notified today
anyone else?</p>
<p>Dean Brady,</p>
<p>I received my decision from Schreyers today and I was rejected. I have a very strong emotional attachment to this school and I just can't let it go. All my friends have moved on, but my future hinges on this decision in more ways than one. Because of my rejection, my dad is forcing me to take pharmacy at a college that I can't stand. However, it has been my lifelong dream to become a medical doctor, and my dad refuses to let me attend expensive ivies, etc... Please, if there is anything, ANYTHING, I can do to be reconsidered, please let me know. I just can't move on.</p>
<p>SandyRun - I certainly understand your disappointment, but there were well over 2400 highly qualified applicants this year and we can only admit 300 first year students. </p>
<p>Penn State is an excellent university and I hope that you will still consider attending. If you should attend you would be able to apply to enter the SHC via the “gateway,” with support of your major department at the end of your freshman or sophomore year. </p>
<p>I realize this is not the response that you were hoping to receive but I sincerely wish you all the best and hope you will still attend Penn State and would be happy to speak with your father about the benefits of Penn State, even for those not in the SHC.</p>
<p>My S. attends a well-regarded PA suburban HS, and also expected to be accepted, based upon his leadership, course selection, etc. Dean Brady even confirmed that test results weren't considered, which made Schreyer very appealing for in-state, bright, high-acheivers who didn't rely on standardized tests to get it.
Here is the irony, and I suspect that there is nothing an admissions committee can do about this: the three kids accepted from our HS DON'T EVEN WANT TO GO TO SCHREYER, and never did. They are going to wait for their ivy league letters to come, and applied to Schreyer because we live in PA and that's what everyone does who is in the AP track.
As a parent, I wish there were some way that the Schreyer staff could discern the difference.
Also, as a response to toneranger: for kids who have only been in honors classes and AP classes for 4 years, to be in the general population of Penn State with all the kids from their HS that took one or two or NO honors classes, had no leadership positions, and really didn't have to work nearly as hard to get there, is a step down, lets at least be honest about it. These kids that are really involved, work really hard, and do really well see Schreyer as the prize, not Penn State.</p>
<p>Yes, zoeinng - it would be great if Schreyer could figure out what kids really wanted to come. Maybe an early decision process might help there. We had the same problem at our high school... a number of HYP caliber kids using it as a deep safety while others were really counting on it. I guess they know how many to accept though since since they tend to hit that 300 incoming class number every year. Not sure what the yield is but I'm guessing they accept over 600 kids.<br>
The honors college is most certainly there to attract some of these kids who may have never considered PSU. But I have to say, that even though my son got into Schreyer, he tells people that he goes to Penn State and he's proud of it. The spirit of PSU students is incredible...I've never seen anything like it.
Would he have gone to PSU if he didn't get into Schreyer? I'm not really sure, but I do know that one of his best friends only applied to PSU and Schreyer. His attitude was that the school was good with or without Schreyer - especially in his chosen major.<br>
IMO, kids get too caught up in prestige. Schreyer is great but it's still Penn State. If you think you're too good for Penn State, it's probably best to stay away. In any case, I don't think Schreyer is interested in having a bunch of kids who think they're superior walking around. For the most part, the honors kids are a really cool down-to earth-bunch, and they are VERY well integrated into the larger community. That's why it works so well. Thankfully, we don't see the elitism that I guess COULD be there if the values of the school were different. Both Schreyer and PSU have had excellent leadership over the years.<br>
With all that said, there are plenty of folks in the well-to-do school districts in PA who will proceed to bash PSU as not selective enough or not good enough for their children. We've met some folks over the years who have asked why our bright achievement-oriented son would choose PSU over the fine private schools he was accepted to. Hey, it was his choice. It's a good school. Most kids are happy there, and go on to fine careers. And there are quite a few bright kids there...and not just in the honors college. I know...many of my son's friends are outside of the honors college...and they are a great bunch of kids. We are...</p>
<p>i got in =] got my letter yesterday!!!</p>
<p>Although I understand the point you were making, toneranger, I do think you missed mine. I don't think that all of these kids think they are "too good for Penn State", not at all. I didn't say, or think, that there aren't great kids that go to Penn State, I, too, know many. I think that many of the kids that I know who really wanted Schreyer are kids who LIKE the Penn State atmosphere, but want the intellectual experiences of their high school classes to continue. They want to be able to be surrounded, some of the time, with kids who understand and share their work ethics and intellect. I think it is true that if you have taken ONLY honors classes in your high school, and you are then taking classes at Penn State with, for the most part, kids who didn't qualify for honors/AP track classes in your high school, the intellectual atmosphere is different. At least from our suburban school, most kids that choose Penn State are NOT the kids in the top track, and most kids in the top track choose schools OTHER than Penn State. Your point about an early decision option is a good one, and in fact, I think, a reason that many of the kids who's first choice is actually Schreyer were "screwed" this year. I know that the 3 kids who Schreyer took from our school didn't go ED because HPY (well, not Yale exactly but they took very few EA) didn't offer it, so they added Schreyer to their lists with no intention of attending. I think Schreyer would still get a fabulous applicant pool of kids who derserve to be in an honors program and love the idea of Penn State if there were some sort of committment option available to them. Of the dozen or so well qualified kids who applied from our HS, there were at least 4 that would have matriculated. Sadly, they're NOT the ones they accepted. Will some of those kids go to Penn State? Maybe. Will they have a good experience if they do? Most likely. But lets not pretend that is what they wanted, earned, or have been working toward. There is nothing wrong with being intellectual, and there is nothing wrong with prestige if you've EARNED it, and it is offensive to make it sound negative.</p>
<p>zoe - we agree that SHC should look into some method for identifying commitment from applicants. And we disagree on some points.
It's my opinion that all the emphasis on prestige in college admissions is offensive. I live in an area that places way too much emphasis on prestige. Top 25 or nothing. Work hard for it and if you don't make it, well, it's not hard to feel like a failure. Too much pressure on the kids.
And I have to say that it doesn't make sense to me that kids would reject PSU just because they didn't get into the honors college. And maybe that's because I've seen the inside view. These honors kids are mostly sitting in the same classes as everyone else. Yes, being in the SHC makes it easier to meet other kids with comparable grades and achievement. But a motivated student can take honors classes, do well and get into the program later with a full orientation program.<br>
SHC is an excellent program that can make an already good school a bit better. And it gives some community to kids who want to be surrounded by excellence. But it's not an all or nothing concept. To say that it is insulting to the many bright kids who go to PSU who are not in the honors college.
IMO, the prestige angle is overrated...but then I'm a state school grad who grew up in an area where most folks thought Brown had something to do with UPS. I actually prefer that environment over the one I find myself living in now. Too much competition, too many labels, too many stressed out kids who think they're not getting what they deserve.
I wish you the best and I hope your son gets into a school where he can thrive and be happy. There are so many places out there where that can happen...</p>
<p>I'm sorry to read this thread.My son is in Schreyers now,but most certainly would have chosen Penn State anyway.We are from out of state and picked Penn State as number one for many reasons (especially with his major) after applying to seven really good schools and honors programs and getting in them. Yes Schreyers was a bonus, but the scholarship is minor,he was only able to schedule one honors class all year, non-honor students are in the same dorms as well as well classes.I feel your son should pick Penn State for Penn State.Colleges never can guess which students are going to accept or not that is the problem with all admissions right now, our society is all about more, more kids are applying not to a few schools but 7-11 schools, its a guessing game with some of these colleges the percentage of kids who will accept.I think your right some kids are missing out that really want to attend but I don't think its the system I think its the seniors and the parents who are in excess, and others suffer .Penn State is a great place.</p>
<p>I want to respond to this thread as a parent of a student who was not accepted to Schreyer two years ago. </p>
<p>My S was a recruited athlete at many schools, including the Ivies. He had good SATs (in the 1400s (CR and Math), taken only once) and a high, unweighted GPA (his school did not weight honors or AP courses) with 24 honors/AP courses on his transcript. He, in fact, had ‘likelies’ from more than one Ivy (including one of the HYPs). However, Schreyer was his first choice and we visited more than once. He was told that he was a strong candidate. His NLI (National Letter of Intent) had to be signed prior to Schreyer acceptances and he made the commitment to attend PSU. When February rolled around, he was rejected from Schreyers. (Another student from his school with similar test scores and GPA was accepted to Schreyer. That student had only used PSU and Schreyer as a safety and did not choose to attend.)</p>
<p>Well, you can imagine the initial disappointment. </p>
<p>FLASH FORWARD TWO YEARS</p>
<p>S is currently a sophomore at PSU and loves it. In fact, he has said that he is no longer disappointed that he did not get accepted to Schreyer. He has stated that he is not sure he would want to commit to the Senior Thesis, since he is more interested in pursuing a corporate career rather than research. (He is an engineering major.) He has pursued and obtained other opportunities to develop and excel in the areas that are important to him. He also has the option of enrolling in the honors classes he wants, with no pressure to have to take the minimum required by Schreyer. He has taken classes and participated in activities that have a large number of Schreyer scholars. Most of his classes have some Schreyer students in them and there seems to be no lack of academic rigor. He has also met many very highly academic students who did not even apply to Schreyer. </p>
<p>From our experience, for the very motivated student, there is a multitude of opportunities available at PSU beyond the Schreyer Honors College. Also, as previously mentioned, there is the junior gate for those who still desire the Schreyer experience.</p>