Science and Engineering - Ivy worth it? or State School?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Hi I'm a rising Senior and pretty soon it will be time to start applying to college. However, I am all over the place. I used to be set on bioengineering, but now I'm not so sure. I definitely want to go into Science or Engineering, but I know those are very broad areas. Most likely, I will end up working with life science in some way, as opposed to, say, mechanical engineering and working with machines or computers. In addition, I am expecting to go to some type of graduate/medical/professional school after getting my undergraduate degree, so the price is a factor.</p>

<p>About me:
I am a pretty good student, so I am looking at some difficult schools. By the end of my senior year, I will have taken:
7 Honors
9 APs
2 Courses at a nearby university</p>

<p>ACT: 33
SAT: 2200
GPA: about a 4.0-4.2</p>

<p>Here is my list for now, in no particular order. (will be shortened and added to!)
Penn State University - Schreyer's Honors College (everyone in my family has gone there)
University of Delaware (because they give great scholarships)
Tufts University (I loved it.)
University of Pennsylvania
Princeton University
Yale University
Lehigh University
Johns Hopkins University
Cornell University (I'm a bit concerned about the rumors of the cutthroat competition for grades among the students)</p>

<p>My question is: Is the Ivy League Education worth the price tag?
My family will probably not qualify for financial aid (unless we get some for having a child already in college), and they've saved enough to pay roughly half of a full price tuition at a private university. Penn State is much less expensive (I'm in state) and I am likely to get money, especially if i get into Schreyer's Honors College. In addition, it is a pretty good science and engineering school with the best job placement and largest alumni network in the country. Is it worth it to throw that away (and incurring debt) for the benefits an Ivy League Education will bring me?</p>

<p>If there are any other schools you can think of that are great in science and engineering, don't hesitate to add them. (Before you say so, I can't really go to Michigan State or Ohio State. They're Penn State rivals and my family is full of huge PSU fans!)</p>

<p>Thank you so much!</p>

2

<p>Most people will tell you that engineering firms don’t care as much about prestige as other industries. Most people will also tell you to save money on undergrad if you are planning on going to graduate school. Both statements are basically true, in my opinion.</p>

<p>However, I think people neglect that fact that the MAJORITY of individuals CHANGE their major/career path/graduate school plans while in college. Nationally, about 1/3 of engineering students transfer out of engineering (nobody thinks it’s going to be them, but it’s quite a large chunk). Another large contingent of engineering grads (don’t know exact figures, but I’d say ~50% at some engineering schools like UPenn, for example) stick with engineering as an undergraduate major to demonstrate their problem-solving and analytical skills, but by the end realize a career in finance or consulting is a better fit than an engineering firm. In these industries, prestige of the school as a whole is more important. Personally, I studied engineering and am now more interested in business, and as a high school senior, I would have never guessed that in a million years.</p>

<p>This isn’t meant to discourage you from saving money or going to Penn State or Delaware as both are great schools that will provide you a great education at a good cost and probably prepare you well for a variety of challenges in your life. I’m simply stating the above so that you keep an open mind as to your eventual path in life - since it will probably change, and possibly change considerably. It is with that fact in mind that I think it’s worth considering applying to (and ultimately enrolling in) a school that you believe offers the broadest array of intellectual challenges, while shaping your life with experiences you won’t forget. Again, not saying those state schools can’t offer that, but it’s something you need to personally assess for yourself - you only go to college once. Having said that, if your parents can’t afford a particular school and you don’t qualify for financial aid, it’s a moot point. I would apply to various types of schools, see if you get in, compare financial aid offers or lack thereof, have an honest conversation with your parents about what they can afford, and then go to the school where your gut is telling you to go (assuming you’ve determined you can afford it).</p>

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<p>If you are looking at expensive highly selective privates for engineering, why aren’t places like MIT, CMU, and Stanford on your list? (Or, for that matter, any of a number of expensive OOS publics that are highly regarded for engineering.)</p>

<p>Still, Penn State University Park is good, and you should have no regrets about going there for engineering, especially since you get in-state pricing.</p>

4

<p>Ivies are NOT worth it for engineering. PSU would be much better for you. And, it will likely give you better chances for local internships and future jobs.</p>

<p>UCB’s suggestions are right…except expect to pay full freight at most/all. Since your parents have a large college fund for you, I don’t think having a sibling in college will reduce “family contribution” that much.</p>

<p>*and I am likely to get money, especially if i get into Schreyer’s Honors College. *</p>

<p>Yes, I believe that the merit scholarship for Schreyers is about $4,800 per honors student. Not a lot, but better than nothing! :)</p>

<p>I am expecting to go to some type of graduate/medical/professional school after getting my undergraduate degree, so the price is a factor.</p>

<p>And, with your ACT 33, there are schools that would give you even bigger scholarships. But, if PSU is going to be your financial safety, then you may not need another one or two. </p>

<p>That said…I hear that Schreyers has become as competitive as ivies. Does that mean that with your ACT 33, you may not get accepted? If you don’t get accepted to Schreyers, how will that affect your desire to go to PSU? If you’ll still be fine with that, then ok. If not, add another safety where getting into honors will happen.</p>

<p>Ahh…then definitely don’t waste your money on a pricey ivy.</p>

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<p>Thanks, everybody, for your answers and taking time to reply to me!</p>

<p>Bluedog- Thank you so much. That is probably the main reason I am not set on a school known for its engineering school because I might not stay in it! Therefore, a broad, large, and good science and engineering program is most important to me. </p>

<p>mom2collegekids- Thanks! My thoughts exactly! That is why PSU is on my list!</p>

<p>“If you are looking at expensive highly selective privates for engineering, why aren’t places like MIT, CMU, and Stanford on your list? (Or, for that matter, any of a number of expensive OOS publics that are highly regarded for engineering.)”</p>

<p>I tend to shy away from technical schools because while I want a science/engineering degree, the degrees from technical schools tend to be more physics/computer/machine based (That may not be strictly true, but that is the impression I have gotten). In addition, I don’t know what I will do with my engineering degree. Maybe business? Law? Medicine? Become a certified engineer? This may be mistaken, but I feel a school that is not a technical school would give me more opportunities to be well-rounded and explore other options. I actually visited both Rensselaer Polytechnical Institute and MIT and I just didn’t click with either of them. I don’t know what it is, but I really loved the more creative, interdisciplinary air of a school like Yale or Tufts.
Also, I visited Carnegie Mellon University in April and while I really liked it, it seemed like such a tiny school. In reality, it is realtively medium-sized. However, it was a very compact campus and felt slightly claustrophobic. Ultimately, I think I took it off my list because it is known much more for Computer Engineering than the types of engineering I might want to do. Is that a bad reason to take it off my list?
As for Stanford, I hadn’t really looked at it becuase it is so far away (As I said, I live on the East Coast) and most everyone I know tends to stay on this side of the country. I won’t be able to visit before applying, but do you think it is worth it to take a look</p>

6

<p>A few thoughts…</p>

<p>[ul][li]At this stage, I would not worry about whether an Ivy is “worth it.” Presumably you’ve picked out those schools for a reason and like them. Apply and see if you get in (most people don’t) - if you’re admitted, you can compare packages in April.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]Your list is heavily slanted toward reaches at this point. Princeton and Yale are nearly impossible for anyone to get into, and Penn is not terribly far behind. Cornell and Hopkins are less selective but still difficult to get into. Of your list, I’d say only Penn State, Delaware, Lehigh, and possibly Tufts are safeties and/or matches. Consider adding a few more matches and subtracting one or two reaches. </p>[/li]
<p>[li]Decide what you’re going for. Cornell, for instance, requires you to apply to either engineering (for engineering) or CAS or CALS (for biology). Likewise, Penn would expect you to apply to either SEAS or CAS. Delaware also expects you to select a major while applying, and not all students are admitted to the major they apply for.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]There is a difference between graduate and professional school, which is something to consider. Graduate school is usually completely paid for with fellowships. Professional school is usually paid for with personal finances, loans, and grants from the school. Depending on what you want to do, loans at the undergraduate level may or may not be worth it. </p>[/li]
<p>[*]If you’re not eligible for much financial aid, the price tag for some of these schools will be pretty hefty. Consider adding more schools where you’re eligible for merit scholarships or in-state tuition as a high performing OOS applicant. Clemson particularly comes to mind, but I’m sure there’s others. Have you looked into Pitt?[/ul]</p>

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<p>Suggest you look at the University of Rochester and Case Western Reserve.</p>

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<p>Then you should look at schools with strong programs in the STEM fields. An engineering “light” or unaccredited degree at a prestigious school with second rank engineering programs will not help your employment prospects. MIT and Stanford have very broad offerings across all STEM disciplines so you could easily find your way to a program that you will truly enjoy. They also have by far the best placement for engineers into both the most attractive software and biotech companies as well as IB or consulting. In the most challenging employment environment for college graduates in decades, it makes a huge difference where you got your degree from and that certainly applies to engineering grads. </p>

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<p>Premed and prelaw is all about GPA, and engineering grads typically have lower GPAs than other majors, so it is not an easy combination. You may want to check out at each school how many engineers are also premed for instance. It is not that common at state schools because of the harsh grading in engineering disciplines. For business school, GPA does not matter as much as you are expected to work a few years before enrolling anyway.</p>

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<p>Hard to answer because you raise so many possibilities. If you go to med school, you’ll want to spend less as an undergrad and get a good GPA. That probably argues for Penn State (though you might also look at Pitt). If you’re ultimately going to end up in a bioscience Ph.D. program, you will probably get some fellowship support as a grad student so saving money now is less critical; in that case, you should aim for the strongest undergrad school with a strong bio program. If you ultimately choose engineering, you should choose the best engineering school, which is not necessarily an Ivy.</p>

<p>Since you don’t know, there’s something to be said for looking at schools that are strong in both bioengineering and biological sciences, as well as other fields (in case you change course completely, as many people do). I agree with cellardweller that MIT and Stanford fit that bill, but they’re very reachy. Among schools presently on your list, Johns Hopkins, Penn, and Cornell are very good in bioengineering, biology, and just generally, but again, reachy. Pitt is very good in bioengineering, a little better in that field than Penn State but Penn State is probably the better school overall; their biology programs are pretty similarly rated, good but not quite top-of-the-line. Still, as in-state choices they make a lot of financial sense. Somebody mentioned Case Western, which is also good in both bioengineering and biology and another “match” school which gives a lot of merit money. If money is not an issue you might also consider the University of Michigan; if money is an issue, consider the University of Minnesota where OOS tuition is just a little higher than the in-state rate; or the University of Wisconsin where tuition will fall somewhere between the Minnesota and Michigan levels. All three of these schools are strong in bioengineering, biology, and many other fields.</p>

10

<p>For engineering, if you look at the US News engineering rankings, you will be surprised to see the number of state schools that are better ranked higher than the Ivy League schools. Some Ivy League schools are worth it such as Princeton or Cornell but if you are looking at other Ivy League schools, a state school may be better than an ivy league engineering program. There’s basically not much difference in engineering as long as you go to a school that has a reputable program. For engineering, if you cannot afford it, a good state school can provide you with a cheap (and even better in a lot of cases) engineering education!</p>

<p>I’m at Clemson and while I cannot say we have an engineering program as good as any of the Ivy’s, we have numerous resources and I’ve had a great experience so far with a public school civil engineering program. I also applied to Purdue and Virginia Tech, top 25 engineering schools that are public universities. Let me know if you have any questions about Clemson!!</p>

11

<p>Two words - Grade Inflation</p>

<p>Ivies tend to have it(except Princeton) so they might help when applying to med school/ law school etc.</p>

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<p>^If you are a student looking at Ivies, it will not be hard to succeed at getting a high GPA at a public school.</p>

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<p>So, cellardweller, you’re saying that Harvard, Yale, and Dartmouth engineering grads have a hard time getting jobs? I find that hard to believe. Can you (or anyone else) back that up or elaborate further?</p>

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<p>Chardo, I agree that statement is ridiculous. However, I think the point is that engineering is not a field where Ivy league schools are clearly dominant. You can get a great job or go to a great grad school if you have a high GPA and good resume of activities/work experience at any of the top engineering schools.</p>

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<p>They may have an advantage for Wall Street jobs, but they may not be as targeted by engineering companies as those from MIT, top public universities in engineering, and local (to the companies) universities.</p>

<p>Also, the selection of engineering majors can be limited. Harvard’s only ABET-accredited engineering degree program is in engineering science. Yale has only chemical, electrical, and mechanical engineering. Dartmouth has only a general engineering degree program.</p>

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<p>^ Does “may not be as targeted” really translate to “hard time getting jobs”? If you look at the job fair lists for those Ivies, there are plenty of tech and engineering companies. It’s not just Wall Street. Are those companies only there for show? I understand that the major engineering employers recruit most heavily at the top publics and tech schools. But do they avoid engineers from Harvard and Dartmouth? Is a general engineering science grad not employable in an engineering job?</p>

<p>Remember, we are constantly told that it’s all about fit. Hard to find many elite schools that are not too big, too male, or too nerdy. If Harvard, Yale, or Dartmouth is the right fit for a student who wants engineering, are they making a mistake going there?</p>

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<p>I am surprised that you are not also looking at Pitt - it would seem silly to discount Pitt (and other state schools)because of school rivalries. I would probably choose Pitt honors over PSU without Schreyer (which has capricious admissions compared to Pitt honors), and possibly over Schreyer once the urban atmosphere, lack of a strong Greek presence, and generous merit aid are added into the mix. In spite of lower rankings, Pitt engineering seems to attract a large cohort of capable students in recent years.</p>

<p>We did find when we were looking into this that especially in a tight job market, recruiters certainly seem to favor the more “prestigious” schools for students coming out of undergrad (this seems unfair, no matter how you try to parse it), including schools such as Michigan and Berkeley, but that grad schools do not seem to care nearly so much about prestige of undergrad as long as the school is in the top 100 or so, grades and test scores are good, and students have ample research experience. So, this makes for a tough decision if you know ahead of time that you want to find a job upon graduation, especially if you do not have a network or a hook that can help you leapfrog recruiter preferences.</p>

<p>Aside from that - </p>

<p>The intro courses taught at honors level in the state schools seemed to be an especially good deal, as class sizes are relatively small and professors (chosen for teaching abilities ) accessible to all students, not just the most capable and confident. The types of research opportunities that grad schools like to see might also be more readily available in many cases at an honors college, where there could be far less competition.
Another advantage of an honors college is the strong advising, and the lack of pressure to graduate in four years should you want to add an extra major, change majors and catch up on prereq’s, or even add extra electives outside of your major.</p>

<p>In your position, I would apply to several types of schools and revisit your choices come spring.</p>

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<p>Meg:</p>

<p>You’re stats look a lot like my daughters – and we went through the process last year, so I’ll share some random thoughts.</p>

<p>First – is an Ivy League (or any private school) undergraduate education worth it at all?</p>

<p>This is highly controversial, and the long and short of it is no one really knows. Aside from cost, there’s really no downside. But that’s kind of like saying …“Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show.”</p>

<p>Many would argue that the alumni networks, and the general reputaton is worth it – but there’s little hard evidence to prove this. My own view – there is value to going to an elite University (even with the considerable cost). However, family financial circumstances must weigh into this.</p>

<p>If you’re not sure you want to be an engineer, going to an elite school provides flexibility. There’s a cachet to whatever degree you end up with. A school like Delaware has a superb Chem E reputation. A school like Cornell has a superb reputation everywhere.</p>

<p>Otherwise, while you can certainly get into virtually any graduate program from lesser ranked schools, the common belief is that it’s easier to do so, from a ‘name’ school, if you’re not top of your class. Some might disagree with this.</p>

<p>It looks like you’re avoiding “institutions” MIT, Olin, etc. This makes sense either if you’re unsure, or if you just want a broader student body.</p>

<p>As has been pointed out by others - you really have to look at the programs of whatever schools you are considering (for example, my D wants to study Chem E – she eliminated both Harvard and Duke because those don’t list Chem E).</p>

<p>Of the schools you’ve mentioned – Certainly Cornell and Princeton have strong Engineering Programs and are excellent everywhere. Penn and Yale are excellent, of course (my D didn’t want to be ‘in’ a city, so she didn’t look at their eng. programs in depth, but I think they’re pretty good). D liked Tufts alot, and Lehigh. Their eng. programs are rated a bit lower than the others, but are still excellent. Lehigh offers some merit money. None of the Ivys (or Tufts) do.</p>

<p>If you’re eliminating Mich St. and Ohio St. because they’re PSU rivals, I assume that Michigan would also be out of the question. You might want to consider Northwestern (I know it’s big 10, but probably less ‘hated’), Vanderbilt or Washington U in St Louis. Obviously, if you’d travel that far, Stanford should be added to any list.</p>

<p>If you’re looking for merit scholarships – consider adding Northeastern, Maryland, and Purdue (another Big 10). Northeastern is probably a step behind in reputation, but has a great co-op program.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, with stats pretty similar to yours, my D had many options including Cornell, Northwestern, Michigan … In choosing among excellent universities, she decided on Northwestern. So, as I said, our family decision was that it was ‘worth it’ for the name school, but this is something you really have to determine for yourself.</p>

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<p>While they will typically accept applications from anywhere, companies that have to travel to recruit may be more selective about where they will go. In practice, if you could send a recruiter on a trip to a university career center to recruit engineering majors, would you rather send your recruiter to Dartmouth or Los Angeles (UCLA and USC)?</p>

<p>General engineering science graduates are employable, but it depends on what areas they studied, relative to the types of jobs they seek.</p>

20

<p>As a Penn State engineering grad who is currently attending an Ivy League professional school, I think your plan is fine. :slight_smile: I went through the same decision tree (CMU vs. Michigan vs. Penn State (in-state)), and I’d make the same undergrad decision again in a heartbeat. Take out the big loans in grad school when the payoff is higher. Feel free to PM me for more info.</p>