Science without Math?

Parents Forum
41

<p>I must confess that your son's issue with math is curious to me, especially in light of his strengths in science. It is really unusual for kids who have a proclivity in Science (particularly Chem or Physics, since they are so math based) not to have a proclivity in Math. There is so much formulaic work in Chem for example, that really requires the ability to synthesize these concepts mathematically, that I would expect for your S to have done well in these courses, he would have needed much beyond HS Algebra 2.</p>

<p>Also, if he is programming computers, he IS using math. He has to be! One can web design, however, with no math skills at all, or minimal ones, and be very successful.</p>

<p>It does sound like there are holes and gaps in math skills that your son needs to address (which testing could tease out) if he wants to pursue a science or engineering career. I would think anyone considering such a career really needs to have good mathematical facility, but I don't know whether sheer determination and hard work can overcome lack of natural proclivity once one is out of high school math (didn't work for me...I never much liked science or math in HS, and struggled like crazy in requisite grad school statistics; I still need help when attempting statistical analysis...yet don't consider it a character flaw ;)).</p>

<p>Good luck helping him figure it out. It's a conundrum to me, that's for sure.</p>

42

<p>I think that a dislike of math is often the result of insecurity with basic concepts. When a child struggles with a subject, especially math, it can be helpful to back up to a level where the topic is easy. Perhaps your son would benefit from repeating college algebra, although it sounds like he feels it is too big of a step backward. But he really sounds bright enough to do well in math, if he receives proper instruction and does the problems. I just don't think anyone gains mastery in any area of math without doing a lot of problems. </p>

<p>As far as your main question is concerned, I believe that the math phobia really must be addressed if your son wants to pursue a major in science. Otherwise, he will always be limited in his options. Facing up to the issue now will only benefit him in the future -- if he continues to avoid math courses, he really will be at a disadvantage. Physics requires a very strong math background, and I don't see how he could major in it without dealing with his anxiety, which is probably caused by lack of confidence in his skills.</p>

<p>As an aside, H has a graduate degree in math, and I know he did every problem he could get his hands on! Also, my younger sister (MSEE) did not feel really comfortable with some of her math classes, and solved that by doing extra problems in Schaum's outlines for the courses. The bottom line is that math is not a subject where you can just read the textbook and think you get it -- you just HAVE to do LOTS of problems.</p>

43

<p>"It sounds to me like your son has been reading textbooks and then convincing himself that he "knows it""</p>

<p>Waterdaughter, no offense taken. I know that he is behind in math, considering his potential and his performance in everything else. And he and I are both well aware of normal it is for students to be far beyond where he's at.</p>

<p>Just to clarify, it's not like he's never done any math problems! As I said, math was the one subject we DID do quite structured. And he did do problems with his algebra/trig tutor. But I don't think he did nearly enough to gain mastery. Instead of just coming naturally, he has to think about it and then he will know how to do it. He'll get them right given enough time, but obviously he does not have the skills readily available. That just takes too long when taking a test. In other words, he is not fluent in math.</p>

<p>I have decided that, rather than having him cram this week and retake the math placement test, I want him to enroll in a class that will strengthen his foundation. It will take longer to get up to calculus, and it may mean not getting into UT Sciences, but it shouldn't hurt his chances to get into UT Liberal Arts, and he can always transfer to Sciences later. (Engineering is not being considered for other reasons.) I think I'm going to be firm about it.</p>

<p>I know this might seem like a really glaring deficiency. It's difficult to know how much to push the kid. I didn't want to say what his IQ is, but that is a factor here. It is extremely high; much higher than the numbers being tossed around on the IQ thread. The problem I've had is that this kid is very perfectionistic, and I didn't want him to have low self-esteem for not being 'perfect.' He is literally way beyond many kids his age in so many areas, that I guess I wanted him to know that it was OK if he was not 'perfect' in EVERYTHING.</p>

<p>It's a delicate balance because, as was discussed on the IQ thread, when they're up in those ranges, sometimes there are other issues, such as just coping with normal life, coping with failures, etc. that are more challenging for them.</p>

<p>I'm not trying to make any excuses for him or for us; we probably made some big mistakes in how we approached math. But that is what is.</p>

<p>"A strong student does not need to do as many of the exercises as others, but s/he needs to do some in order to acquire fluency."</p>

<p>Exactly. And his math tutor assured me that he had zipped thru the material and knew it. I know he did problems, but clearly not enough. Knowing that he normally DOES get things more quickly, it was difficult to ascertain just HOW fluent he was. Looking back, he should have done more testing.</p>

<p>"It's a conundrum to me, that's for sure."</p>

<p>Yes, it's a conundrum to me too! And to him!!!</p>

44

<p>Lealdragon:</p>

<p>If he needs to do some more problems to acquire the necessary fluency, there's surely lots of time before fall to do them without taking a lower level class? He needs to do more problems so that he can be said to be fluent, but surely he does not need to take a whole class? Can he use a tutor to fill in the gaps in his knowledge?
I worry that he might be bored taking a class that will inevitably go slowly over materials he may already have covered. My experience with my own kid is that boredom is a huge factor affecting his performance.</p>

45

<p>More Knuth here, and some other authors, on the distinction between "exercises" (which everyone needs some minimum number of, to learn math) and "problems" (which no one can ever get too many of, to REALLY learn math): </p>

<pre><code>"It is perhaps pertinent to make a comment or two here about the problems of the text. There is a distinction between what may be called a PROBLEM and what may be considered an EXERCISE. The latter serves to drill a student in some technique or procedure, and requires little, if any, original thought. Thus, after a student beginning algebra has encountered the quadratic formula, he should undoubtedly be given a set of exercises in the form of specific quadratic equations to be solved by the newly acquired tool. The working of these exercises will help clinch his grasp of the formula and will assure his ability to use the formula. An exercise, then, can always be done with reasonable dispatch and with a minimum of creative thinking. In contrast to an exercise, a problem, if it is a good one for its level, should require thought on the part of the student. The student must devise strategic attacks, some of which may fail, others of which may partially or completely carry him through. He may need to look up some procedure or some associated material in texts, so that he can push his plan through. Having successfully solved a problem, the student should consider it to see if he can devise a different and perhaps better solution. He should look for further deductions, generalizations, applications, and allied results. In short, he should live with the thing for a time, and examine it carefully in all lights. To be suitable, a problem must be such that the student cannot solve it immediately. One does not complain about a problem being too difficult, but rather too easy."
"It is impossible to overstate the importance of problems in mathematics. It is by means of of problems that mathematics develops and actually lifts itself by its own bootstraps. Every research article, every doctoral thesis, every new discovery in mathematics, results from an attempt to solve some problem. The posing of appropriate problems, then, appears to be a very suitable way to introduce the student to mathematical research. And it is worth noting, the more problems one plays with, the more problems one may be able to pose on one's own. The ability to propose significant problems is one requirement to be a creative mathematician."
</code></pre>

<p>Eves, Howard (1963). A Survey of Geometry volume 1. Boston: Allyn and Bacon, page ix.</p>

<pre><code>"Before going any further, let's digress a minute to discuss different levels of problems that might appear in a book about mathematics:
</code></pre>

<p>Level 1. Given an explicit object x and an explicit property P(x), prove that P(x) is true. . . .</p>

<p>Level 2. Given an explicit set X and an explicit property P(x), prove that P(x) is true for FOR ALL x [existing in] X. . . .</p>

<p>Level 3. Given an explicit set X and an explicit property P(x), prove OR DISPROVE that P(x) is true for for all x [existing in] X. . . .</p>

<p>Level 4. Given an explicit set X and an explicit property P(x), find a NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT CONDITION Q(x) that P(x) is true. . . .</p>

<p>Level 5. Given an explicit set X, find an INTERESTING PROPERTY P(x) of its elements. Now we're in the scary domain of pure research, where students might think that total chaos reigns. This is real mathematics. Authors of textbooks rarely dare to pose level 5 problems."</p>

<p>Graham, Ronald, Knuth, Donald, and Patashnik, Oren (1994). Concrete Mathematics Second Edition. Boston: Addison-Wesley, pages 72-73.</p>

<pre><code>"First, what is a PROBLEM? We distinguish between PROBLEMS and EXERCISES. An exercise is a question that you know how to resolve immediately. Whether you get it right or not depends on how expertly you apply specific techniques, but you don't need to puzzle out what techniques to use. In contrast, a problem demands much thought and resourcefulness before the right approach is found. . . .
"A good problem is mysterious and interesting. It is mysterious, because at first you don't know how to solve it. If it is not interesting, you won't think about it much. If it is interesting, though, you will want to put a lot of time and effort into understanding it."
</code></pre>

<p>Zeitz, Paul (1999). The Art and Craft of Problem Solving. New York: Wiley, pages 3 and 4.</p>

<pre><code>". . . . As Paul Halmos said, 'Problems are the heart of mathematics,' so we should 'emphasize them more and more in the classroom, in seminars, and in the books and articles we write, to train our students to be better problem-posers and problem-solvers than we are.'
"The problems we have selected are definitely not exercises. Our definition of an exercise is that you look at it and know immediately how to complete it. It is just a question of doing the work, whereas by a problem, we mean a more intricate question for which at first one has probably no clue to how to approach it, but by perseverance and inspired effort one can transform it into a sequence of exercises."
</code></pre>

<p>Andreescu, Titu & Gelca, Razvan (2000), Mathematical Olympiad Challenges. Boston: Birkhäuser, page xiii.</p>

46

<p>Does your son have any background in discrete mathematics? It's very different that the math that most students do in K-12, very proof-based and conceptual, rather than rote-learned computation. In my computer science program, discrete math is emphasized far more than algebra/calculus type math. It's a stumbling block for many students who haven't thought that way before, but maybe it would help your son to know that there is a different type of math that can be far more important to computer scientists than the type of math he has learned so far.</p>

47

<p>It takes incredible patience and knowledge to successfully home school a child. Many of us it seems, let the school define the curriculum, but having mastered most of the courses keep a close eye on what our children are learning. We also try to provide some incite and encouragement. </p>

<p>Your comment about cc is correct. It is a place where everyone's child is above average compared to all posters on cc. Of course this is mathematically impossible, so do not fret. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about "gifted " children and IQs. It's sick. </p>

<p>None of my children are gifted. They all work hard and had the good fortune to have been born with educated parents. </p>

<p>Math is terribly taught in many venues. There is no fairness. Some children have 12 to a class with outstanding teachers, while others have 40 with a terrible teacher. Often the best math people in the community are kept out for lack of a teaching credential. I can't imagine how you home school through
precalculus or calculus without being a mathematician yourself. It sounds daunting to me and I took all the courses Marite lists.</p>

<p>The Knuth quotes are wonderful.</p>

<p>Much of the advice above is truly superb. It is apparent that what is obvious to many is obscure to some. </p>

<p>In order to be prepared to engage upon a career in physics, see Marite's post.
It is possible to be a great physicist without knowing how to solder a wire or program a computer; but you must be able to solve Maxwell's equations.</p>

<p>Please try to put one issue in perspective, time. The philosophy that the younger you are when you get to a grade level, the better, is flawed. A
student is better learning and performing well in five years of college than blowing it in four. So take your time. If physics is the desired goal, take the time to learn the math.</p>

48

<p>"Your comment about cc is correct. It is a place where everyone's child is above average compared to all posters on cc. Of course this is mathematically impossible, so do not fret. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about "gifted " children and IQs. It's sick."</p>

<p>I'm not sure how to interpret these comments. Which of my comments about cc are you referring to?</p>

<p>Are you implying that I was bragging about my son's IQ? Or that he is 'above average' but that I should not be saying that, since 'all parents think their kid is better than everyone else's?'</p>

<p>If that is what you meant, then I resent your comments. (If I am misinterpreting you here, then please clarify.)</p>

<p>I have been careful not to post my child's IQ, for that very reason. </p>

<p>Interestingly, there was a discussion about that very thing on the 'IQ' thread. Someone commented that gifted children are expected to fit in, with no special provisions, even though they may be several standard deviants above average; whereas, if a child has any sort of learning disability, then special provisions are made. There was also a comment about how people are very touchy about intelligence; no one likes to be considered 'not smart' and they resent it when someone is open about how smart they are. It is always assumed to be bragging.</p>

<p>It often IS bragging. There has been plenty of that done on this forum.</p>

<p>But, what you don't understand is that the parents of gifted children have their own set of challenges to deal with, just like any other parents. Some are the same and others are completely different.</p>

<p>Why are we not allowed to voice our concerns and ask for advice regarding our children's unique needs, without being labeled braggarts?</p>

<p>Why must I walk on eggshells when describing my son, when I honestly and sincerely just wanted some advice about a very real problem we are dealing with?</p>

<p>If I just wanted to brag about him, surely I would have done so before, and not waited until after I'd posted more than 200 times.</p>

<p>If I wanted to post his high IQ, then I would have posted the actual number, like some other parents did, in the IQ thread.</p>

<p>The ONLY reason I mentioned it at all was because it was RELEVANT to the particular challenges he is currently dealing with, and I was trying to provide a clearer picture of the situation to those who were offering their advice.</p>

<p>"It is apparent that what is obvious to many is obscure to some."</p>

<p>What's with the snide remarks? Since when does everyone here at cc have all the answers? Since when does someone get attacked because they asked for some advice? Did I not give profuse thanks for all the wonderful advice I was given?</p>

<p>Your kids probably work much harder than mine does. But, I am not resentful about it!</p>

<p>I don't think you even bothered to read my posts; if you had, then you would know that we did NOT teach him the higher maths ourselves, but hired a tutor. No way could I teach him Calculus, although my husband could have. Or chemistry either; that's why he took chemistry at the co-op, along with painting and sculpting and other enrichment courses to supplement the homeschooling.</p>

<p>Homeschooling is rarely a case of the child staying at home all day. It is more often a 'hybrid' integrating co-op classes taught by other homeschooling parents whose strengths are pooled for all to benefit.</p>

<p>But, it is not my intention to declare the virtues of homeschooling. I should not have to defend it. I readily said in my earlier post that, like conventional schooling, it has its strengths and weaknesses; its primary weakness being the lack of testing.</p>

<p>Despite my best efforts to show his weaknesses and seek help, still someone evidently thinks it was all just for show, so that I would have an excuse to tell everyone that my kid has a high IQ.</p>

<p>THAT is what's sick.</p>

49

<p>Krazykow: Thanks for the suggestion. I'm a software engineer myself, but I've never even heard of discrete math. (There was a shortage of programmers back in the 70s and I only got an Associate degree.) I agree that he may very well do better with the higher math. The more I think about it, the more I think it is just some sort of mental block or emotional blockage with algebra. Maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way and I need to somehow get to the root of what's bothering him with it.</p>

<p>To everyone else who offered advice: Thanks again for all your kind words, good advice, and well wishes. I apologize for getting a bit testy in my previous post (the response to scidoc) but I admit I was a bit offended. I honestly did not intend to be bragging about my son but am sincerely seeking some advice, because this math issue has been the cause of some serious stress in our family, especially right now when decisions have to be made about which classes he will take in the spring, and which colleges he is applying to in the fall.</p>

<p>I have definitely learned a lot from all of the responses and I appreciate all your help!</p>

50

<p>(Pssssst. Leal, I could be wrong but I don't really think scidoc was ranking on you or your kid. Specifically or generally. Just commenting on the overall delusional world that CC can become at its worst. Chill. You are doing fine. :))</p>

51

<p>"If he needs to do some more problems to acquire the necessary fluency, there's surely lots of time before fall to do them without taking a lower level class? He needs to do more problems so that he can be said to be fluent, but surely he does not need to take a whole class? Can he use a tutor to fill in the gaps in his knowledge?
I worry that he might be bored taking a class that will inevitably go slowly over materials he may already have covered. My experience with my own kid is that boredom is a huge factor affecting his performance."</p>

<p>You have brought up a very valid point, and, indeed, I have usually tried to avoid anything that would be boring to him. I think, though, that in this case, it is the very drilling, the repetition, that he has gotten shortchanged on. I have already tried the tutor, the self-paced instruction, the videos, etc. and the only thing I have NOT tried is a full-blown actual 'normal' math class. Maybe at this point it's what he needs. If it turns out to be an easy A, which I'm thinking it will, then it should boost his confidence, and that's the main thing he needs right now. We had resisted the idea of him taking a lower-level math in college because we thought of it as a waste (of time and $$) but in light of the situation, and largely due to the clarity I've gained from reading all the wonderful responses on this thread, I now feel very certain that this is exactly what he needs.</p>

52

<p>If I misunderstood scidoc, then I apologize. I read it and reread it and that's how it came across to me. Maybe I got defensive because I did use the word 'gifted' in describing my son (I think I may have used it, anyway, not even sure).</p>

53

<p>You didn't use the word gifted until post 32 and it was certainly not central to your initial question. I viewed your Q as valid. Now, I DO also view you as proud of your kid. What's wrong with that? Welcome to the club. ;)</p>

<p>You've received sound advice. Kids are good at what kids value. If he wants to be a scientist with his track record he will be a scientist. If he wants something to blame , he has that, too but again based on track record I think that is highly unlikely. </p>

<p>My kid is one of those who gets calculus (self studied Calc C for a 5 on the BC test since our school didn't offer it and she had a bad experience with EPGY on-line courses). I remember having a conversation with a wonderful math teacher at her school. He responded to some query of mine with "We see things this way.....". It was made very clear to me D was one of the "we" and that I most assuredly was not. LOL.</p>

<p>(See? That last paragraph COULD be bragging but when I typed it I wasn't thinking of bragging but explaining and differentiating. I took your posts the same way. ;))</p>

54

<p>Lealdragon, math is everywhere even if we don’t like it. I don’t think there is science without math, in my S’s school those who want to have engineering majors, physics major, chem. majors, pre meds, business majors, and even education majors, they should have Calculus before the first semester ends (most of the kids already have AP Calculus AB by the time they enroll).
I have the same problem you have with my D, very high IQ (not as high as her brother who finish all the math courses available in his school by junior year including Calculus BC and Statistics), but she doesn’t like math (although she is doing pretty well in Calculus AP), so she decided to purse a career with not too much math. Is your S really science oriented? Maybe he likes more the humanistic side</p>

55

<p>Leal.... your kid sounds great. You sound great.</p>

<p>Now let the part of your head that knows he has a high IQ go into hibernation for a while. The reality is (as most of the posters have already pointed out) your son will not have a career in science without math. Your son will not enjoy being with other engineering or science oriented or physics majors in college without math.... that's the fuel that makes those kids run. Your son will even find out that econ, linguistics, and many of the social sciences, are populated by kids who love math. They talk math. They live math. Physics classes are taken by kids who make jokes in math and everyone laughs. I am told by my college-aged kids that Chem today is all math.... forget what we learned in HS. Bio is highly math, at least past the first year. Even Science journalists are highly proficient in math.</p>

<p>So to me, the time you're spending fretting about how bored he'll be in a remedial class is wasted time. If he invests in getting up to speed on math... then discovers that he still hates it, it's time to think about another path. My suspicion is that he won't hate it once the deficiencies are addressed... but you'll never know until you get him there.</p>

<p>Many grad schools have "math boot camps" to help the students get passed a math deficiency or phobia. It's drills, drills, drills......I don't know if they open enrollment to "special students" but it's worth asking.<br>
The instructor explains the concept... and then the students do problems until they're proficient. Nurses need math; architects need math; MBA students need math; PhD's in any social science need math. If you're near a U which has grad programs in any of these disciplines, my bet is that they run a math boot camp.</p>

<p>Once doing the problems is second nature, then worry about whether he likes math or not. "Getting" calculus seems to me to be getting in the way here. I "get" a lot of things... doesn't mean I'm going to be proficient in them, or that I can use them as the foundation of everything that comes afterwards.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
You have brought up a very valid point, and, indeed, I have usually tried to avoid anything that would be boring to him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let me try to clarify. By boring, I do not mean something a student is not interested in, but too easy, not sufficiently challenging, already covered. As S used to say,"Why do we have to cover the metric system over and over again?" or "Didn't we do fractions already?" A regular class may cover materials your S already knows very well along with topics he may not be fluent in. If he is like my S, he will blow off the easy stuff. In high school, S's lower grades invariably came in classes where he already knew the stuff rather than in the more challenging classes where he not only was more interested but also knew he had to work hard to learn new materials.
So if the problem is one of uneven coverage of math topics rather than across-the-board lack of preparation in math, a different approach may be needed.
And, by the way, I love the Knuth quotes, too. The tutor may have assigned exercises as opposed to real problems. When my H supervised S's learning of calculus, he chose problems from the book (Finney, Demana, Waits, Kennedy) that were real problems and not just exercises, although he included a fair number of those as well to ensure that S acquired fluency. </p>

<p>One more thing about college-level math: as in the AP-Calc exam's Free Response Questions, solutions to problems must be in full. Points are deducted for incomplete solutions, and awarded even for wrong answers if some of the steps are correct. It is important to learn how to write solutions properly. The same applies to physics.</p>

57

<p>“So if the problem is one of uneven coverage of math topics rather than across-the-board lack of preparation in math, a different approach may be needed.”</p>

<p>What type of approach? I'm not sure what other kind of approach there could be, besides getting strong on the algebra by taking an algebra class. But I am open to suggestion!</p>

<p>“Once doing the problems is second nature, then worry about whether he likes math or not.”</p>

<p>I think that is it, rather than lack of coverage of math topics. He has covered all the topics and had done work in each one, but not nearly enough drilling for it to become second nature. That’s why, given enough time, he can usually get all of most of the problems correct, but he didn’t do well on the timed test because it’s just not ‘second nature.’</p>

<p>So, in light of that, I was thinking that he should take a lower level math this spring semester. I found one offered at the 4-year U called ‘Algebra for Scientists and Engineers’ that is supposed to be a prep for Precalc, with Calc taken after that. I showed him the topics covered and he has definitely already covered all of them, but I’m thinking that if they are presented with scientific applications, AND he is forced to do lots of homework, it will become meaningful to him and he will gain fluency.</p>

<p>I’m very optimistic that a semester of a solid math class will do the trick. I looked at the catalog and found a teacher that has rave reviews from people who were stuck and he helped them get unstuck. (He will avoid the teacher who thinks all Americans are dummies if they don’t immediately get it. The right teacher will be a crucial element in this case.) I am pretty certain that if he gets his confidence up and it becomes ‘second nature’ then he can probably retake the placement test after this class, and place out of Precal, since he is already comfortable with trig and it’s really algebra that is the problem. That way, he could take Calc in the fall, which would normally be his freshman year. He’d still be behind the science students, but so be it. At least he wouldn’t have to spend another semester doing Precalc. THAT, I think, would be boring for him. But we’ll see how he does with the Algebra for Engineers and Scientists class. I really think he will do well. Just the title alone will get him interested, I think!</p>

<p>And, if, at the end of this class, he STILL doesn't like math, then that will be the indication that he should not pursue science.</p>

<p>“your son will not have a career in science without math. Your son will not enjoy being with other engineering or science oriented or physics majors in college without math.... that's the fuel that makes those kids run.”</p>

<p>OK, my original question has been thoroughly answered. I am now convinced that he MUST remedy this, because, truly, this kid is so totally scientific that I really could see him being with those kids making those jokes. </p>

<p>“those who want to have engineering majors, physics major, chem. majors, pre meds, business majors, and even education majors, they should have Calculus before the first semester ends (most of the kids already have AP Calculus AB by the time they enroll).”</p>

<p>That is exactly why he has felt inadequate in this area; because he knows he is already behind. There was a chance for him to at least be in the running if he’d completed both semester of Calc this year (12th grade) but it didn’t happen. </p>

<p>But, it’s not an all-or-nothing deal, is it? I mean, it’s not as if he cannot get into a science major; it’s just that he can’t pursue it on the regular timetable. If the lack of Calc keeps him from getting into the UT College of Sciences, then so be it. He can just get into Liberal Arts, spend a year doing Calc, and then transfer later. He will have approx. 38 transferable credits, so he does have a bit of wiggle room anyway. I’m not too concerned about it taking him a bit longer to graduate, if need be. I am more concerned about him following the path that is a good match for him.</p>

<p>Now that all you wonderful people have helped me get some clarity, I feel much better about it and I think it’s clear what he needs to do. Thanks again!</p>

58

<p>I think one little thing might have been missed along the way here. Your son has no need to worry about not having taken calculus before getting to college. This is why colleges offer first-year calculus in their curricula and don't make it a pre-req. Even Caltech (where history majors take quantum mechanics) has a freshman calculus class. Calculus is not the end-all and be-all of mathematics and is not, as far as I know, a prerequisite anywhere. So, one less thing to worry about.</p>

<p>If your son does not pursue a science or engineering career, the most useful branch of math for most majors on campus is statistics, not the calculus series. Just because a person struggles in the mainline algebra-geometry-trigonometry-calculus series doesn't mean they can't understand statistics. It's another thing altogether.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

59

<p>lealdragon, your kid sounds a little like me- I am currently a third year physics major but never considered math to be my strongest suit due to being horrible while taking tests in it. My high school transcript was peppered with Cs in the material, yet I learned Riemann sums in second grade, stuff like that...</p>

<p>With that, however, here is my opinion: YOU CANNOT BE A GOOD SCIENTIST WITHOUT MATH!!! It is one thing to understand quantum mechanics conceptually, but the fact of the matter is my course in the material this semester consisted of no words written in my solutions. Science needs articulate people and will welcome your son with open arms for this ability, but you cannot remain in the field unless you have the mathematical backing to explain it. That's what makes real science what it is, so unless your son overcomes this block he will not succeed in the field.</p>

<p>Having said that, I will also emphasize that science is very difficult and I do not think anyone will debate me on that point who has studied it in any detail. Everyone starts out as a physics major planning to be the next Einstein, and everyone finishes knowing that there is a reason the man's name is a household word over a century after his work. The people who become physicists in the long run, I've noticed, are the ones who have no qualms with this but still love the subject anyway and think they can contribute to it.</p>

<p>So as your son gets ready for college, I guess my general advice would be to put things into perspective because math aside everyone will be as smart or smarter than he is in college. (And half the class will be below average!) Second, tell him that as fun as everything else is he needs to take the time to sit down and make sure everything up to calculus is down as solid as he can: lots of people start off in Calc I in college, including a large fraction of the physics majors, but you cannot succeed if you are forever second-guessing your foundation. Third, realize that you need the math to fully understand the science, and if your son really loves it as much as he says he will take the initiative to sit down and do this. If he has half as much drive as you make it sound like, I think he will.</p>

<p>Best of luck to your him, and I hope to meet him at a shiny telescope or particle accelerator someday. :)</p>

60

<p>"...Your son has no need to worry about not having taken calculus before getting to college. This is why colleges offer first-year calculus in their curricula and don't make it a pre-req. Even Caltech (where history majors take quantum mechanics) has a freshman calculus class. Calculus is not the end-all and be-all of mathematics and is not, as far as I know, a prerequisite anywhere..."</p>

<p>WashDad, now I am confused. How do I reconcile what you just said with what these other people said:</p>

<p>"in my S’s school those who want to have engineering majors, physics major, chem. majors, pre meds, business majors, and even education majors, they should have Calculus before the first semester ends (most of the kids already have AP Calculus AB by the time they enroll)."</p>

<p>and...</p>

<p>"...Compared to others with comparable or lesser ability, your son is behind in math...many high-performing public school students take Algebra II and Trigonometry when they are freshman, not juniors. When they're juniors, they're in calculus. When they're seniors, they have 2 years of dealing with Alg. II / Trig concepts under their belt. They apply concepts readily and solve problems quickly. These are the kids your son will encounter (and compete with) in a first-class engineering or arts and sciences college like UT..."</p>

<p>???</p>

<p>Even the head admissions officer at UT reassured me that calculus was NOT even part of the consideration when deciding whether to accept an applicant to the College of Natural Sciences. It is required for College of Engineering, but not Sciences. So, then why are these people saying he is so far behind? It is not his intention to compete with engineering students, because he does not plan to go into engineering. Can't he just catch up this spring, then take Calc his freshman year at UT? Is that so unusual?</p>