<p>"...make sure everything up to calculus is down as solid as he can: lots of people start off in Calc I in college, including a large fraction of the physics majors, but you cannot succeed if you are forever second-guessing your foundation..."</p>
<p>Good advice! And you just (partially) answered the question in my previous post!</p>
<p>I took the first semester of PChem with only one semester of Calculus. I was able to do it OK, but the professor called me in and said that he hated to see me suffer and not have as much fun as the other students. This was a new concept to me: PChem was supposed to be fun. I thought everyone was struggling like I was. I took the second calculus course, and the second semester of PChem was a lot more enjoyable.</p>
<p>Great story, mardad!</p>
<p>my daughter took calc at her college- it was the lowest level math course offered-
Virtually all students were strongly encouraged to retake calc in college, whatever their scores in Calc.
Ap credit is applied toward total credits required for graduation, not for credits required by individual depts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Mathematics, Calculus AB/BC: One unit of credit is granted for scores of 4 or 5 on either, but not both, of the mathematics exams. A student may not receive credit for both the AP test and Math 111. Placement is determined in consultation with faculty members. Reed does not grant credit for the Calculus AB Subgrade.</p>
<p>Credit for AP tests will apply toward the 30 units of academic credit needed for graduation, but cannot be used to meet any other Reed College requirement.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that many students in engineering and sciences have had calculus by the time they get to college, but it's not a requirement. Your son is behind in the sense that he doesn't have something that many other students have had. He's not behind in the sense that he can graduate in four years from a science or engineering program if he takes calculus for the first time in college. Many students choose to retake calculus anyways, because they feel like they didn't get everything the first time around. I agree with many of the other posters that getting the foundating of algebra and pre-calc is far more important than taking calculus right now.</p>
<p>By different approach I mean specifically that he needs to do more exercises and problems in the areas where he is weak, and that he does not need to actually take a class where the teacher will cover materials he has already covered, albeit in a somewhat shallow fashion, with minimal practice. The tutor does not seem to have done a good job. It's one thing to "get it" and another to become fluent. Your S may be less resistant than mine would to going over old grounds. It's your call.</p>
<p>"does not need to actually take a class where the teacher will cover materials he has already covered, albeit in a somewhat shallow fashion, with minimal practice."</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification. That is a good point. I'm not really sure how to distinguish exactly which areas he may be weak in; in fact, it doesn't really seem to be any particular areas, but just fluency overall. When he took the math placement test, he said he felt confident about his ability on all the different types of problems, but he just hadn't had enough practice to be efficient.</p>
<p>I had hoped that any class he takes, such as the Algebra for Engineers and Scientists, would provide that practice that he needs. (Hmmmm...maybe we'd better research the teachers and find one that is known to give LOTS of homework.) I would assume that there would be that homework...or, am I wrong about this? Do college algebra profs routinely give assignments that are optional, with the grades coming only from the tests? If that's the case, then that would not be good in my son's case.</p>
<p>Could he go over the placement test with a prof? Did he need more time because he was not fluent? On which type of problems? </p>
<p>If he cannot, he might consider taking another, informal placement test with a tutor. The tutor should assign problems covering different topics. Then your S and the tutor should go over the solutions together. Even if the answers are correct, your S may have spent more time than allotted on some. These would be the areas where more practice is needed. If he has trouble in all areas, then taking the class would be called for. But I think an analysis of the placement test and the results is in order.</p>
<p>I'm not convinced that the OP's son wouldn't be better off repeating an Algebra II/trig/precalc class. In post #4 Lealdragon said, "And he zipped thru both Algebra II and Trig in 3 months. So he CAN do it if he sets his mind to it. But it doesn't seem to stick." That implies that he didn't really have a strong foundation in the subject. </p>
<p>In post #29 Leal said, "We actually did hire a tutor for him in 11th grade, who got him thru Algebra Ii and Trig. At that time, he was struggling with some math anxiety, so I thought that maybe the best approach was for him to get comfortable with math, hoping that it would click for him."</p>
<p>To me, this doesn't sound like boredom so much as anxiety induced by simply not knowing the math well enough. He sounds very bright, but if he hasn't really developed a strong foundation in algebra, it will always be an impediment. Facing up to the fact that he has holes in his background NOW seems to be the best strategy. Otherwise, I think he'll continue to avoid the mathematical foundations required for physics/engineering and will end up in a different area altogether. JMHO.</p>
<p>In HS I took a summer course that covered the first half of Algebra II, which is really a repeat of Algebra I. I taught myself enough of the second half to test out of Algebra II. Big mistake. I should have done it the other way. It's not that I can't do the trig. I just have to look up definitions each time I want to use trig. I have the knowledge but I don't have the familiarity that comes with actually taking the course. It's a matter of comfort. All the members of my family agree Algebra II is probably the hardest math course we've had. My younger daughter is in Calculus I now and says it is easier than Algebra II.</p>
<p>Hey, Lealdragon:</p>
<p>Your plan to have him enroll in that E&S math course sounds great to me. Good idea to check out the prof and homework practices, too.</p>
<p>Just remember: one doesn't have to love math to succeed in (and have fun with!) science. One just needs math facility/fluency. Sounds like he's on the road to picking that up.</p>
<p>Again, good luck to both of you!</p>
<p>As someone who is in exactly your son's situation (I LOVE science but I've given up on math, at least for the moment), I don't see why he couldn't go into biology. Maybe I'm wrong, but there is plenty upper level biology research out there that doesn't involve math past calculus or statistics...he could definitely find a field. I myself want to be a physician, and I certainly don't intend to learn any math past calculus. </p>
<p>A lot of colleges have calculus courses for people who are "deficient" in precalculus (which is where I fell apart)...even top notch places like the University of Chicago (it's the only one I can think of right now), so I wouldn't worry if he's had problems so far. Once he gets past calculus, an entirely new world could open up to him, and he could blossom. Almost every person who's taken calculus has said to me that it's 100x easier than precalculus, so if you wait and see, he may blossom in upper-level mathematics and end up becoming a physicist after all. </p>
<p>Also, a word of advice...I failed precalculus honors (twice!) not because I'm completely inept, but because I became so discouraged that I stopped trying and I convinced myself that I <em>was</em> inept. Your son's probably doing the same thing - most things come easily to him, so when he encounters something that doesn't, he berates himself and stops trying. I could be wrong, but that's pretty much what happened to me and now I'm paying for it in the college admissions process with my bad GPA.</p>
<p>The most important thing you can do right now is force your son to do his math homework. I know it sounds cruel, especially if he has better things to do, but it's the only way he's going to learn how to work through his frustration.</p>
<p>"I have the knowledge but I don't have the familiarity that comes with actually taking the course. It's a matter of comfort."</p>
<p>That's exactly it!</p>
<p>"...All the members of my family agree Algebra II is probably the hardest math course we've had. My younger daughter is in Calculus I now and says it is easier than Algebra II."</p>
<p>Wow, that is reassuring! I will tell him that and it should make him feel better to know he has already faced the most formidable challenge.</p>
<hr>
<p>"don't see why he couldn't go into biology. "</p>
<p>He probably could, but he has no interest in biology or medicine. He's more interested in computers/technology/physics. He's looking forward to taking astronomy, and did very well in chemistry, but biology is probably the only science he's not interested in.</p>
<p>"Your son's probably doing the same thing - most things come easily to him, so when he encounters something that doesn't, he berates himself and stops trying..."</p>
<p>Yes, he is. I am concerned about his perfectionism. We've all heard of students who underachieved rather than face something that they found challenging, because they had a fear of not being perfect, even though their performance was adequate and maybe even high. Since they were so used to performing at stellar levels, they set perfectionistic goals for themselves.</p>
<p>I'm trying to help guide him now so that he may hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls you ran into. </p>
<p>"The most important thing you can do right now is force your son to do his math homework. I know it sounds cruel, especially if he has better things to do, but it's the only way he's going to learn how to work through his frustration."</p>
<p>I agree and I intend to do that. I already told him about the Algebra for Scientists/Engineers class and he seemed ok with it. He might even be relieved! I think he knows that this is what he needs. I am confident that he will do fine in the class and hopefully get over the anxiety.</p>
<p>"this doesn't sound like boredom so much as anxiety induced by simply not knowing the math well enough."</p>
<p>It's definitely anxiety, not boredom. Most definitely.</p>
<p>"...informal test..."</p>
<p>I don't think they have anything like that. But that's ok. We've decided that this is the time to take that Algebra for S&E class, regardless of whether he MIGHT do better on the placement test retake. I'm not even going to have him take the retake. After all these great responses, I am now quite convinced that he needs to get stronger in his foundation, rather than risk getting him into Calc with a shaky foundation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Virtually all students were strongly encouraged to retake calc in college, whatever their scores in Calc.
[/quote]
Reed's course catalog does seem to suggest this (because Reed's calculus is proof-based and most HS calculus is less so), and it worried us a bit, but D took her math prof's advice and plunged ahead. Taking more advanced math worked out fine for her.</p>
<p>Aim for medicine or something in Biology if you want to pursue a science that is less "math involved", rather than say physics.</p>
<p>michael faraday comes to mind... but i guess not in today's world no :P</p>