So far, besides University of California campuses, my D has been accepted to:
Bryn Mawr with $25K per year Presidential Scholarship
Scripps with $27K per year Scripps Scholarship
Carleton with a modest amount of need-based aid
Whitman with their $16K per year merit-based scholarship + $3K per year music scholarship and free private flute lessons, if she declares (double) major in music.
She will hear from Smith later today, I believe. Carleton is her top choice, but we’re not sure if it’s worth going into that much debt and paying a $20K premium to attend any LAC, even Carleton, which she absolutely fell in love with. Whitman was her “safety” LAC, so it is unlikely she’ll choose it over the others, even though I hear it is a good school.
In any case, given the merit-based scholarships, the cost of attending one of women’s colleges listed suddenly comes within $10K of UC Berkeley, her top choice among the UCs she got into. Now we can seriously consider an LAC. The question is, which one is best for science and pre-med preparation? Nothing is for certain, but at this moment, she is interested in becoming a psychiatrist someday. However, as a backup, she also wants to take Computer Science and other practical skill-oriented classes to prepare herself for the job market, should her med school plans not materialize. Would appreciate any insight folks may have to help my D decide.
Since this is the Women’s Colleges subforum, I’ll focus on the pros and cons of Scripps, Bryn Mawr, and Smith.
SCRIPPS:
Pros:
Claremont Colleges consortium, so Harvey Mudd and Pomona classes are within walking distance
Keck integrated science program with Claremont McKenna and Pitzer offers an Early Conditional Selection agreement with George Washington University school of medicine
More leadership opportunities for women in a co-ed environment for all practical purposes
Pretty campus, good food (especially at Pitzer’s dining hall), lots of food choices across the 5Cs
Claremont is a nice, small, college town that is not too far from L.A., beaches, and mountains
In-state, so easy and inexpensive for her to come home for Thanksgiving and for us to visit with her beloved dog
Cons:
No major medical centers nearby for clinical volunteering etc., and it remains to be seen how good the research opportunities are
The tiniest of all schools she’s applied to and significantly smaller alumnae network than Smith, Carleton, and Bryn Mawr
Not as much socio-economic diversity, but to be expected at any small, private LAC
D is not 100% sure whether the environment will be as intellectually stimulating as Carleton
Poor air quality (L.A. County smog)
BRYN MAWR:
Pros:
Bi-co/ Tri-co/ Quaker consortia with Haverford, Swarthmore, and if you are okay with the distance, UPenn.
I have heard that they have a decent science program
Usual perks of being in an all-women’s school such as leadership opportunities
Based on photos, gorgeous, gothic architecture, pretty campus, but we haven’t visited yet; will go to one of the April welcome events
Supposed to have nice house system and good food
Close proximity to Philly and its medical centers
Cons:
Remains to be seen how good the research opportunities are
Distance from home = $$$ for travel back and forth, fewer visits from the family, and probably some missed Thanksgivings
D has read stories about strange rituals and traditions, making the college seem like one big sorority; visiting will obviously clear up misconceptions and stereotypes
Climate
SMITH:
Pros:
Consortium with Amherst, Mt. Holyoke, U. Mass
She really liked the alumnae and current students she met on the road, although she has yet to visit the campus. Again, we’ll visit during welcome events, if she is admitted.
Excellent women’s leadership programs and opportunities
History of strong alumnae leaders
Campus looks pretty in pictures, and Northampton is supposed to be a nice, small, college town
Supposed to have a decent science program
Open curriculum may be a good thing for some students; not sure if my D cares
Cons:
Not sure about pre-med clinical volunteering experience in the vicinity
Remains to be seen how good the research opportunities are
Distance from home = $$$ for travel back and forth, fewer visits from the family, and probably some missed Thanksgivings
I don’t know Scripps at all and know a little about Smith (good school) however I think Bryn Mawr would do a good job of meeting your daughter’s academic needs. Strong own sciences and pre-Med as is Haverford and she can chose to major at Haverford if she desires. So, if you visit Bryn Mawr, allow a little time to pop over to Haverford to check it out. BM’s campus is lovely. I think it’s one of the prettiest in the country and the dorms are great. Haverford has a good CS dept and the students there have had good success.
Philly is so close by commuter train. Great research opportunities in Philly plus just a great arts/music/dining scene for fun.
Northampton MA is a great town but Philly has so many more opportunities.
Congrats to you daughter on wonderful choices and the scholarships.
Congratulations go to your daughter on her many acceptances! My ability to provide concrete advice is limited by my lack of/tangential knowledge as to several of the colleges she is considering. But for what it’s worth…
Our daughter is a freshman at Carleton, intending to major in Bio with plans of attending medical school. Like you, Carleton gives us a small amount of need-based aid. Although she never looked into Bryn Mawr (we did circle the campus by car!), she did apply to Haverford last year. We also had looked at one women’s-only college – Mount Holyoke, where we toured, stayed in their guesthouse and where she interviewed and attended a class. But she quickly dismissed the idea of a women’s-only college as she just did not see the point of attending one.
Bryn Mawr to my mind is less of a women’s-only college due to its close interplay with Haverford. A colleague of mine who graduated from Bryn Mawr (Classics/Greek) about 10 years ago commented to me that Mount Holyoke would be a stronger science choice for our daughter than Bryn Mawr. Yet Haverford is only a mile away.
All of our daughter’s applications were filed regular-decision, as we wanted the ability to evaluate our ultimate costs for each. Although she received $24,000 of wonderful merit aid to attend one LAC strong in sciences, Carleton clearly become her first-choice college as we progressed. She is challenged, happy and doing well at Carleton – and we are managing it financially…
I can speak a little about Scripps and the other Claremonts. The Claremont system is incredible- really easy to cross-register in, rich social life, 7 dining halls, and all the employment opportunities hosted by one school are open by all schools. So you get a LAC experience, but with the resources seen at a larger university. Being a Claremont student means you get access to the alumni networks of all the 5 Colleges. It’s a much more intimate system than the one Smith is in. Carleton and Pomona are very similar to each other, so if she desires a more intellectual student body, she can make friends at Pomona easily or take their classes. Not to say Scripps students aren’t very bright and motivated themselves.
There are a few medical center nearby, and a lot within an hour to an hour and a half drive of Scripps. A lot of students intern at the nearby Pomona Valley Hospital, while some go further to USC Medical Center, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, and UCLA. Having a car, or finding a carpool buddy, is critical, because while public transportation exists, it takes a really long time. Here’s a full listing of places she could work at: https://www.kecksci.claremont.edu/prehealth/Volunteer/Premed.asp
Keck’s acceptance rate to medical schools is very high- nearly twice the national average. I think all of these schools will report similar pre-med statistics. So premed outcomes aren’t something you should worry about. One big problem is that Keck is oversaturated with majors, and a number of students have been locked out from taking some courses simply because there isn’t enough room. You may want to get a Keck Sci student perspective on this. I haven’t heard of this happening at other LACs. Research opportunities are definitely there- I worked at Pomona over the summer and the 5C’s host summer research get-togethers, and there are a lot of kids from Keck in the summer. One really nice thing is the HHMI program, which will enable her to do research at Harvey Mudd or Pomona too if she so desires. You’re getting research offerings not from just Keck, but also Mudd and Pomona.
The smog issue is overblown, especially in the colleges themselves. SoCal has taken efforts seriously to combat smog in the last few years, and the air quality is much better than before, though it is worse than the US average. I went to Pomona a few years ago, and had friends coming from Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire, and they never complained about the air quality. I actually can’t think of a single day in my four years where the smog was getting in the way, though there are a couple of days when you can see it hanging near the mountains. I’m not from California. The bigger natural threat is earthquakes- California is due for a major earthquake within the next 30 years, and the Claremont Colleges are right on a fault line, though there is a great earthquake preparedness system across the colleges.
My not pre med daughter took organic chemistry and had a great experience. It was run very collaboratively and not at all like a weed out course. She was considering taking Orgo 2 just for the heck of it even though it wasn’t required for her.
My kid is pretty lazy (shh don’t tell her I said that) and won’t be bothered to go to any of the consortium colleges. She does have friends that do.
Women’s colleges vary quite a bit in the degree of STEM focus. Bryn Mawr is one of the strongest women’s colleges in this regard.
One way to evaluate this is to look at Section J (“Degrees Conferred”) of a school’s Common Data Set. Check out the total percentage of degrees issued in the categories of “Biological/Life Sciences”, “Computer and Information Sciences”, “Math and Statistics”, “Physical Sciences”, and “Engineering”. Here are the results for BMC, Smith, and Scripps, using the latest available CDS:
27.7 % Bryn Mawr
24.5 % Smith (only school with Engineering)
19.8 % Scripps
So STEM majors are most popular at Bryn Mawr, despite the fact that neither BMC nor Haverford has an engineering program.
Thank you for all the useful information and insights.
Update: D got waitlisted by Smith, but has been accepted to Oberlin (Arts and Sciences) with a $25K per year Oberlin Scholarship. You know, I had no idea private colleges gave out merit-based scholarships anymore! I was sure private school was a lost cause since we are at that cursed, upper middle class threshold. Income and assets (= Bay Area home) too high for meaningful need-based aid, but too low to afford that kind of tuition without major loans. Pretty awesome. Now, it may be a reality. I think my D would thrive at a small LAC in a way that might be difficult at a UC Berkeley or UCLA.
@nostalgicwisdom - I just saw one of your comments on another thread about CMC in which you say that Keck is where people go to take “easy” science classes. I can believe that Mudd and Pomona have more challenging science classes given their selectivity, but is Keck really that weak in the sciences?
No, Keck is not weak in the sciences at all, and AISS- the combined bio/chem/physics class at Keck- may be one of the most challenging curriculums available at the 5C’s. The thing I’ve heard is people taking intro pre-med physics at Keck because it is better taught there than Pomona and less rigorous than Mudd (nearly everything is less rigorous than Mudd, though). It was wrong of me to generalize to all of their classes, and I regret my lack of maturity in the past (I think the comment was three years old, for reference, right when I was a young student at Pomona)
One thing I’d want to look into is how overcrowded Keck is. I’ve heard of students getting locked out of required courses because there is so much demand. The STEM majors at all 3 schools are growing and because that home for science isn’t growing any larger (whereas Mudd/Pomona have built new facilities), it’s getting quite constrained. A current science major at Scripps would be able to answer this for you.
@nostalgicwisdom - Thank you for that clarification. That’s helpful. Wife and D are visiting Scripps next week for the admitted students day, so D will look into the over-enrollment issue you raise. I’m also curious to find out how they prioritize registration each semester. Still trying to figure out which will be better for science, Scripps/Keck or Bryn Mawr/ Haverford (she got into both Bi-Cos, but given the merit scholarship, Bryn Mawr is looking more realistic, even though she really liked Haverford). She’ll visit Bryn Mawr & Haverford in a couple of weeks.
We visited the eastern women’s colleges on your list and Whitman. I am a psychiatrist too, FWIW. I would vote Bryn Mawr. It is a gorgeous campus, STEM strong, they have one of those 5th year pre-med booster years (forget what that is called), part of the consortium, and access to Philadelphia (which has several media schools). Haverford is also excellent.
Whitman is a very nice school but quite a bit different than Bryn Mawr. My only knock on Whitman is its remote location and the transit time to visit. For pre-med it is a bit isolated as well.
@Bromfield2 - Does the presence of a post-bac program benefit undergrads in any way? (Besides the fact that the school has connections/ familiarity with medical schools that regularly admit students coming out of the post-bac program.) Incidentally, Scripps also has a post-bac program.
Some of it may come down to campus vibe for her. They are fairly distinct. Can she visit Oberlin as well has her planned visits to Bryn Mawr & Scripps? Agree with @nostalgicwisdom that taking pre-med classes at Mudd isn’t a great idea. Wicked smart students, heavy workload, and grade deflation.
I think the clinical opportunities are not a make or break thing. Students can often pick those up over summers.
Post-bac students take the same classes as undergrads–one could argue that there may be a benefit in having them in classes with undergrads. Post-bacs may raise the level of instruction/discussion/interaction.
Hello, my daughter got accepted in to Smith and Bryn Mawr. She is considering majoring in Chemistry with a focus on continuing Grad studies in Chem. Any feedback/comments on Chem dept between Smith and Bryn Mawr academically?
@kol123 and @BobShaw, I don’t think that there is enough of an academic difference- not in quality of teaching, strength in science, pre-med prep- between the schools in question to make that the deciding factor. After $$, the key is really how your daughters respond to the environment. The thing about LACs is that they can be very alike on paper- and have a completely different feel. Consortium or no, you live, eat, sleep and breathe on your home campus- and it is amazing how differently different kids react. I know (and also have) kids who have known within minutes of getting out of the car that it was not the place for them. Equally, I knew before one of my collegekids which college she would pick before she did- b/c I saw how she responded to the place.
Is there any grade deflation going on at Bryn Mawr? I heard rumors. Because my D is thinking about being a pre-med, this is critical to know. It’s one of the main reasons she is leaning away from UC Berkeley and UCLA. If she were not interested in pre-med, we wouldn’t care.
Bryn Mawr isn’t a cake walk but I wouldn’t call it grade inflation or deflation. It is an intellectual community with academic rigor but I’ve never heard folks describe it as overbearingly difficult to achieve. Don’t expect them to hand out 4.0s like candy, though.
For pre-med, I would suggest having the prospective student reach out to the pre-med advising office to get answers to your questions from the source. Might be just interesting to do for all the schools in contention just to get a feel for that end of things.
@doschicos - Yes, she is scheduled to meet with the advisor during her upcoming visit.
When I say “grade deflation”, I mean whether a high percentage of classes are graded on the dreaded Gaussian distribution with the average grade set at B- or C+. I disagree with the philosophy that having students compete for a limited number of high grades on a curve is “motivational” in any positive or healthy way. In fact, this grade scarcity creates an atmosphere that is downright toxic. Why should one student’s success mean another’s failure? That’s my point. Now, the problem is, how to deal with comparisons between professors and consistency year over year when you have criterion-reference grading. I think even when you grade on a curve, pre-determining the grade distribution is not the best way to go. Too often, that is what instructors do.
I’m hoping that given Bryn Mawr’s honor code philosophy of not discussing grades and rankings among students, the college discourages professors from pitting students against each other in their grading policies. Anyway, thought someone might have firsthand knowledge and comment.