Seeking your wisdom on college list/visits (so many colleges, so little time)

Parents Forum
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<p>sly_vt, I understand your concern. My d is a horrible test taker. She does extremely well on math and then stumbles through the verbal. Yet she is an excellent student, who takes as much AP as she can handle and has a 3.9 uwGPA at an excellent suburban HS. What I have learned is that some good students, like my daughter, simply take too much time to reason through a question and thus fall behind the pace and are unable to finish the test within the time limit. It isn't because they are "dumb" but more an issue of timing and pacing. </p>

<p>We were able to examine individual responses on a school sponsored ACT test from her Sophomore year and found a marked division in her answers. The counselor looked it over and said "I can tell exactly when you started guessing because you were running out of time." She pointed to a point on the scoring sheet where my d had gotten all but one or two questions right up until then, and then a majority wrong after that. My d had been embarassed by her poor showing before that, but once she understood the problem, she no longer has a fear of those tests. Since then her ACT score jumped 5 points in another school test this past fall and now she is doing some self-prep with the help of an occasional tutor, focusing on timing and pacing, hoping to squeeze out a couple more points when she takes the "official" tests this spring. </p>

<p>More importantly, we have learned that many top colleges can overlook test scores like hers mainly because my d has excelled in her AP courses - which I'm told is probably a better indicator of college success than just test scores. Moreover, a good essay and a demonstration of her talent and interests - something she can spend time and energy on - will also help. </p>

<p>She's still a nervous teenager about it all, wondering whether she can get in one or two of her reach schools, but I sense a new confidence in her college search. She now knows she wants a college where she can get individual attention from her teachers, and not just be a number in a classroom. She simply wants the "best college" for her. I still have no idea which one that is, but she'll find out soon enough. She now knows she doesn't have to "settle" because of her test scores.</p>

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<p>Also consider Muhlenberg-in small town central PA, but students charter buses to NYC (2hrs.) or Philly--liberal atmosphere, strong theater program. CC people in the past have said the college has "happy students." </p>

<p>BTW--my D raised her scores considerably from PSAT --at that point she had never taken a multiple-choice test in her life. Practice tests made all the difference.</p>

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<p>I think Barnard sounds perfect apart from her sats--they have great womens studies and art history depts plus all that Columbia has to offer.
Would she consider Smith as too rural? Northampton is very cool.</p>

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<p>Although they may be larger and farther west than she would like, some large state universities might work well for her; Michigan and Wisconsin come to mind---wonderful college towns, fine journalism opportunities, large enough to have all sorts of majors and concentrations once her interests jell. If urban life is really calling out to her, NYU might be another consideration, although also larger than it sounds as though she wants. I also wonder about the University of Rochester and Macalester (both urban) and maybe better sizes for her. </p>

<p>I agree that being from Vermont will help a little to overcome her SAT scores if they don't rise as much as you expect, and having a GPA in the 3.8 or 3.9 range in tough courses is certainly impressive. It sounds as though your high school is actually pretty successful in placing its top students even without NMF. The one caveat I would keep in mind is that it is hard to have your cake and eat it too; if Mom went to Brown it may be hard to play the small, unsophisticated high school card quite as well as one could if Mom went to community college (and the apps do ask where parents went to school). On the other hand, a student from anywhere in Vermont will provide geographical diversity for schoold that hunger for it, and that will be a help, probably even in the Northeast and certainly more so out of the region.</p>

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<p>You might consider Boston University. My urban-loving daughter really loved BU when she visited. </p>

<p>(I am reminded of this by the fact that I just received a very nice letter from BU telling me that my daughter has applied for admission, in case I didn't know, and supplying me with all the information I would need to nag said daughter into setting up a web account with them. So far this the first of 12 colleges to write such a letter to me.)</p>

<p>You could also consider Boston College & Fordham. </p>

<p>My daughter has decreed after her visit this year that Washington, D.C. is not a "happening" town, but for the rest of the kids in the world, American U. and George Washington U. are also good urban choices.</p>

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<p>Have you read the excellent classics Looking Beyond the Ivy League, and Colleges that Change Lives by Loren Pope? I would put those on your must read list. Another good one is the Fiske Guide to Choosing the Right College, it's the smaller thinner green book that is a companion to the huge phonebook sized one. To get an idea of SAT ranges, USNEWS America's Best Colleges is good, if you don't take their ratings as gospel. You can order from Amazon or Borders etc. if not in stock.</p>

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<p>roshke: Which colleges "change lives"?</p>

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<p>I know he loves College of Wooster, Beloit and Earlham. He also talks a lot about Rhodes, Centre and Eckerd. The books are dated, although a new version of the first one is coming out. It is said to be updated, but with the same basic list of schools.</p>

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<p>ok, urban, small, not preppy, in the northeast and not hyperselective so you could use it as a near safety, take a good look at Clark University in Worcester Mass.</p>

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<p>University of Vermont in Burlington is a happening, funky city campus, and not at all like rural Vermont. Would she consider it as a safety?<br>
My S at first refused to even apply to our top fifty state school because he felt it would be a continuation of HS, but with gentle persuasion we were able to make a good case for it as a safety.</p>

<p>As far as other true safeties, I'd add Drew University in northern NJ - just minutes from NYC, and known for its great internships at the UN and many others. Environment is eclectic not preppy. It has a very nice campus, too. Also in NJ are the well-regarded College of New Jersey, and Rutgers University(the state school) in New Brunswick.</p>

<p>I also thought of Emory University in Atlanta, with all the great media internships and art museum opportunities. Before you say that's no safety school, their two year residential Oxford College is less competitive for acceptance. After the time there, you are guaranteed a spot on the main campus.</p>

<p>Two other schools I forgot to mention from the Loren Pope books are Kalamazoo and Lawrence in Wisconsin. </p>

<p>I have a feeling your D won't need to dig too far down into her list, though I wouldn't take anything for granted. Schools would much rather see high GPA and more modest SATs than the other way around! Coming from rural Vermont is a good geographical hook, too. I second taking a good look at schools that don't require the SAT, such as Connecticut College. </p>

<p>One point I wanted to make was in response to calmom's advice to leave the reach schools off the list of places to visit. I would tend not to agree with that, as more and more schools want to see that you have a clearly demonstrated interest in that school. Oftentimes a visit and real demonstrated interest, such as contacting regional reps with questions, attending info sessions etc. are what sets you apart in order to have a chance at a reach school! It can also work in the reverse. My S has a friend who was a strong student, SATs in the high 1300s and very good grades. The kid was outright rejected from GW and American U because he never showed any interest by visiting them while kids with lower stats were accepted. The only time that a visit may not matter is if a school is on the very top of the heap (HYP etc) and/or they know that travelling out of town would be a financial burden on a particular family.</p>

<p>Lots of good suggestions on this list so far. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the suggestions.</p>

<p>I’d say that right now, we’re probably going to get on a plane and go somewhere in February.
There’s the Ohio trip: Case Western and Oberlin.
Or the Chicago trip: Northwestern, Beloit, Lake Forest, UWisc/Madison
Or the Minnesota trip: Macalester, Carleton
And since it is February, it is a lot more tempting to go to California and look at Occidental and the Claremonts.</p>

<p>The problem is deciding which of the above to do! The Midwest is an awfully big place, and not as easy to navigate compared to the northeast corridor. </p>

<p>I absolutely agree with roshke about the importance of visiting schools, or at least demonstrating interest somehow. We’ve heard the same things. We’ve actually been to both AU and GWU – which is where we learned that she prefers well-defined campuses in urban areas, which is why NYU and BU aren’t that attractive. (We go to NYC a lot, and she’s been to Washington Square and seen NYU, and wasn’t impressed.)</p>

<p>Fordham seems to have its pluses, but the big concern is the Catholic influence. </p>

<p>Let’s see, someone asked about UVM – I can report that Burlington is a great college town. There’s little diversity there, unfortunately, and lots of outdoorsy types that are there for the skiing and hiking. It will be a safety for her, but not one she’ll relish. </p>

<p>Smith: No interest in a girls’ school unless there are boys across the street. I’ve tried to get her to look at Wellesley, where a good friend of hers just got in ED. No luck. I think she’d consider Scripps, though.</p>

<p>And as for Muhlenberg – I once worked in Allentown, and my father went there! Allentown is a city, but one with a dead dead dead downtown. The malls killed it. Bethlehem, where Lehigh is, is much nicer. From the little I’ve read about Muhlenberg, I sense it’s a little too quiet and preprofessional for her tastes.</p>

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<p>When we were stuck on just state colleges, a smart parent on cc steered to these choices in the Pope book and now , my D is at Hiram College and loves it . Another freind sent her D to Wooster ( another Pope choice ) and it was a perfect match . I hope there is an updated version - any obvious ommissions or additions ???</p>

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<p>Sly_vt, on that Ohio jaunt, you may want to take a short stop by either Allegheny or Wooster. We visited both in addition to Case and Oberlin. Our s liked Allegheny and thought Wooster was okay too.</p>

<p>BTW, he fell in love with Oberlin and was pleasantly surprised with Case.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>OOPs read your original post. Allegheny and Wooster are far from anywhere so they do not meet here criteria.</p>

<p>Oberlin is very liberal and has a 70's vibe to me. With the conservatory it is a nice sized college and there is lots going on even though the town is not large. Its not too far from Cleveland, maybe 45 mins? We were impressed with Case and were invited to the CompSci department picnic because we were wandering around Olin Hall before the info session and were greeted by a Compsci prof who gave us a cooks tour of the department facilities.</p>

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<p>Smith isn't urban, but is in a very happening town. Women's studies? Government? Heavy de-emphasis on SAT scores? Open curriculum like Brown? Highly economically diverse, less preppy? Second largest LAC art museum (after Williams), and well-known art history department? (actually, all the seven sister schools are very good.) And not too small? (it's one of the biggest of LACs, and made larger by the 5-College system.)</p>

<p>But the girls' thing kills it. Thing is - about 75% of Smith students that I've met said they'd never even considered a women's college til they set foot on the Smith campus. My d. turned down Williams and bunch of other places after visiting, and is a very happy camper.</p>

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<p>And the funny thing about Smith is that we’ve driven within a couple miles of the campus innumerable times over the last 17 years.</p>

<p>But here’s another complication. Smith is the number one choice of one of my daughter’s best friends – my daughter has slightly better grades, this friend may end up with better SATs, and their ECs are probably a wash. My daughter absolutely does not want to go to the same school as her friend. And this friend really wants to go there – may very likely apply ED.</p>

<p>Small high schools pose another interesting dilemma in the college application game, because it really does not make sense for many kids to apply to the same school. There could be as many as 15 kids who will be looking at selective schools, and since we’re not a prep school or a feeder, the chances of more than one getting accepted to any given school are very very slim. It would make a lot of sense for the kids to – if at all possible – spread out their applications instead of having eight of them apply to the same school (which has happened). My husband and I joke about getting all the kids into a room and telling them this.</p>

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<p>but my question is
the young women who never, never want to even consider a womens college- how do you get them to even look?
once criteria was established- it cut many schools out of the picture-</p>

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<p>Sly....we've talked already but I will just comment on the Smith thing (a school I also suggested for your D to consider).....while I understand about a selective school not too apt to take more than one kid from a high school like yours or mine, this is more true of like Harvard, than of Smith. Just so you know, Smith HAS taken more than one from a given year from our high school....I recall about three the year my D got in. Middlebury has as well. I would not discount Smith on this one aspect as I believe both could get in from your HS (though I realize your D may have other reasons). </p>

<p>My D did not have Smith on her list junior year when we completed all of our visits because she wanted coed. At the end of junior year, we did one more exploration in terms of if we overlooked any schools that met her criteria and discovered that Smith met just about everything she wanted but it was all girls and she then said, "you know, I should just look at it before discounting it being all girls" and we did know kids from here who were very happy at Smith. My D visited in Dec. of senior year, loved it, applied, got in....and in April, when she narrowed her seven acceptances down to which ones she wanted to revisit for accepted student events, Smith made her final cut to three! In the end, after that second visit, she said that as much as she liked it, she knew she truly preferred coed. She luckily had fine choices so went with that, but she did like Smith. Smith fits several things your D wants and is worth a look. I gave you some other ideas that I now see others bringing up, as well. </p>

<p>Emeraldkity.....I didn't care if my D looked at Smith as I wanted her to pick her schools. It was just that when I found it had just about everything she wanted, I mentioned what I found and she maturely admitted that while she had wanted coed, it was worth seeing first hand before coming to such a conclusion and in fact, liked what she saw on a thorough overnight. Still in the end, her preference for coed won out but there are kids at Smith who were not primarily looking for all girls. The five College Consortium is a factor too. Still it is not the same as coed. I think in the end, my D is a better match at Brown. I do know twins from our HS where one is at Brown and one is at Smith (the one at Brown is a boy, however). </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>As others have mentioned, Oberlin is well worth a look. Public policy / environmental activism interests are widely shared there, their art museum is fabulous (where else could you rent an original by the likes of Picasso, Toulouse-Lautrec, Matisse or Warhol to hang in your dorm room for $5 per semester?) and the areas of the social sciences that the OP mentioned are well represented. Funky, creative, engaged, liberal and intellectual are five of the best adjectives that I can think of to describe the student body.</p>

<p>The area is like Vermont in some ways, but very different in others - for starters it is flat as a pancake. If you can, try to visit while school is in session. Better yet, take advantage of their dorm stay program. The town is sleepy indeed without the students, but there is a lot happening on campus from September through December and February through May. Check out the events calendar at oberlin.edu.</p>

<p>Cleveland is not easy to get to unless you have a car because the last bus back to campus leaves from the airport at 7:30 PM. Cab fares back and forth are quite high. If you do have a car, 45 minutes to an hour is about right depending on what part of the city you are going to and what time of day you are going.</p>

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<p>EK,
I think that if we are looking for "fit" and to a given kid that means being in a coed environment, as wonderful as the womens' colleges are, they may simply not be right for a girl who wants to be around men. I would not have wanted an all-woman environment in college, and I really don't think my daughter would be happy in that situation. It's not that she refused to consider it - she looked at brochures from Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Wellesley, Bryn Mawr -- as a parent, I realized that these schools offer tremendous opportunities -- but in the end, its not what she is looking for.</p>

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<p>Mine had already spent a year at Evergreen, and taken courses at St. Martin's University when she applied. She definitely was NOT particularly looking for a women's college. She visited (overnights) at a bunch of other places. It's just - well, Smith had more, in virtually every area she was interested. More music (especially opera, early music, Renaissance vocal, Baroque chamber, ethnomusicology); much better language departments (especially Romance, and particularly Italian). Better (and better supported) JYA programs. Better town. (For her, a better Quaker environment, and access to transportation - she sits on a national Friends board, and has to get to Maryland regularly). Better advising, better tailoring of programs to her needs. Much more socioeconomic diversity. And through the 5-College thing, basically more of virtually everything (except daily men in the dorms and classrooms.)</p>

<p>When you read the brochures, Smith (and this is probably true of the other women's colleges too) simply looks like another LAC, just one without Y chromosomes. It was only upon visiting that my d. could see the differences.</p>