<p>Kirmum:
One message I took away from the Belmont Hill article (in the thread I started) is that for students at pressure-cooker type schools, it may be easier (as well as being a tradition) to get into selective private colleges than to get into state universities which use a number crunching approach to applications. Even when they have adopted comprehensive review, they have very strict grading criteria, and students from a private school that insists on giving out more B-s and Cs than As and B+'s will not'fare well in the application process at those state universities. As the article pointed out, some students who got into Harvard were rejected by Michigan. Another message, picked up by Ariesathena and reinforced in The Gatekeepers, is the importance of GCs in the prep school/selective private college connection.</p>
<p>The web sites give the schools, but not the special group status of those accepted, which as noted above, is important to factor in.</p>
<p>No, Kirmum, it 's about a lot of things. You have to remember that these kids are preselected. When you and your child go through the app process, you will see that it is similar to a selective college process. In someways even more daunting, as an interview is often necessary of parent and child. </p>
<p>Also the counselor recs and relationships are not necessarily going to be helpful to every child. Soemtimes an impersonal GC who doesn't know about your highschool trials and tribulations can be better for the app process. Also it is no certainty that your kid is going to be one the counselors are going to advocate at the schools where there might be this relationship.</p>
<p>If you were to be able to view the "codes" of the admitted students, it would help you undersatnd which kids we admitted with some sort of hook, right? Were your children not URMs, that would be important. But, since your children are URMs, isn't that info less important for you? (unless your children are planning on not checking the box)</p>
<p>Good point momsdream, but the whole situation leaves me with a lot of questions. Yes, my children are mixed race, but they are affluent. They are the children of 2 parents who hold ivy undergrad and grad degrees. If we throw in an elite prep school, do you really think they'll be given any leg up?</p>
<p>i'd think they'd succeed wherever they go if they have the right mindset. but prep schools do offer many academic advantages and opportunities absent in most public schools. not to mention the alumni connections later on in life.</p>
<p>kimrum,</p>
<p>Which LA schools are you looking at? I know of one that sent almost a dozen students each to Harvard and Yale a couple of years ago. This same school routinely sends around 15 kids a year to both Stanford and Penn.</p>
<p>Yes, as URMs they will be given a leg up. But, just my observation from several of the "College Books" and the situations I personally have seen at S's school, URMs seem to get a bit of a break on the SAT1s. Not on the grades. If there is a break, I did not see enough to voice it. It seems to be more of a tip point than a true hook as I hear and read from all of these anecdotes. I've yet to see a low scoring, low gpa URM get into a top school even from an adverse background unless he was a top level athlete, and I've seen non URMs with even lower academic profiles get in through that route. </p>
<p>Where the biggest advantages for URMs lie are in the next level schools from the very top. Again this is personal anecdotal info, but I have been trying to pinpoint what the story exactly is for a while, so I have been looking for those big flame situations. Haven't found one. Know an African American who went to Harvard with a mid 1300 SAT1, but he had high SAT2s and a 3.7 gpa at a school with a B- curve--He was a member of the cumlaude society. Also an athlete, also disadvantaged, 1st in the family to go to college, etc. Heck, I would have autoaccepted him. And people have pointed at him as an AA admit. I don't think so. </p>
<p>However, last year 4 out the 4 admitted to Yale from our school were either URM or legacy. And there were many legacy turned down. All the URMs who applied did get in, and they were from affluent families as was the Harvard admit that I know, and several Princeton. But though their academic profiles may not have been strictly statistically the best, I have to honestly say that if they were not marked as URM or I had only their profile, I would not feel that it was an unfair admit. They were definitely qualified to go to HPY, and to do a total holistic exam is beyond the data I have. The URM at his school also accepted early to Yale is a better student than S but with lower SATs and an incredibly talented young lady with a breath taking resume. If she were not in the URM category, I would not have been surprised that she was accepted. None of the Prep for Prep or ABC or any of the outreach kids were accepted to HPY in the last 5 years except for a very good athlete. Some had good SATs but the grades were the issue, it seemed. I think S's grades are the lowest I have seen in that book for HPY admissions. The grades are a big deal thing and it can be the killer for top level college acceptance from a rigorous prep school.</p>
<p>MIT gives preferrence to those who are the first in their family to go to college.
They want to make a difference in the students life.
Of course the stats have to be great also, but in a tie breaker with the kid of two ivy grads. MIT picks the student that will be the first in the family to go to college.
About 20% of this falls MIT entering class was first in the family to go to college, up from about 11% the prior year. Admissions had made it a priority.</p>
<p>Kirmum, its the culture in your state where going to one of the UC's is an acceptable choice for the bright kids...in the Northeast these kids don't want to go to SUNY or UConn or Rutgers......also I doubt they'd let you see the college "books"....may not even admit that they have them.</p>
<p>A point often overlooked is that a lot of the "pressure" put on these kids to attend ivy league schools comes from the parents, not the school or the school administrators. My son attended a school with similar stats to the one mentioned by the OP. He met many kids there who were told since pre-school that they would eventually attend an ivy league school. Many parents send their kids to these prep schools for that reason alone. We didn't.</p>
<p>Sokkermom's right. At the school where I teach, the college counselors bend over backwards to get families to consider a wider array of colleges. As one of the counselors recently told me, his job would be a lot easier if more of the families would broaden their view of success. I do have to say that the great majority of parents have realistic expectations for their kids, but year after year there are those stories of parents who seem to think that the only place to get a good education is one of the Ivies. Funny thing, though--these are usually the people who have little idea what a good education actually is.</p>
<p>My little one goes to cub scouts, and the moms there were debating which ivy league school would suit their little one the best. Most of these kids are going the private day schools in the area, and they are pretty much hooked on the theory that they have invested in a sure road to HPY. I kept my mouth shut. No way I was going to convince this crowd otherwise.</p>
<p>I"ve found in talking to parents over the years that the people who are the most hepped up about the whole Ivy business are either A)people who never went to college themselves and are going by hearsay or B) Ivy grads....they can be pretty one-dimensional when it comes to ideas of college quality.....</p>
<p>to spoonyj and Jamimom - do you find that the parents who hold these views about ivys attended themselves, or is it more of a consumer mindset (like which car to buy, or which brand of toothpaste) not based on direct knowledge of these places?</p>
<p>Just read your message dke. One thing I would add is that most ivy graduates I've met would love to have their children attend, but they are more realistic about the difficulties students have getting in (in spite of any legacy 'tip').</p>
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<p>Ivy grads....they can be pretty one-dimensional when it comes to ideas of college quality.....</p>
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<p>My read on that is little different (I am an IVY grad) ... it seems that the IVY grads are biased towards what they believe is a better experience at a top school (being in a big pond) versus being the top dog at a not as highly ranked school .... that said it seems they equally respect IVYies, other top privates, the top LACs, and the top publics ... again, believing in (and paying for if possible) a great school that is a great fit for their child. just one opinion</p>
<p>D attends a suburban Detroit high school (class of 400+) where there were three ED/EA to Ivy League Schools, one each to Harvard, Princeton and Yale. It seems like the goal of the GC office is to get as many as possible into UM and MSU. If you want to shoot any higher, you are pretty much on your own. I am not sure they even know how to call an Ivy regional rep.</p>
<p>The ones I know from scouts are not ivy graduates (maybe one or two). But they are paying premium dollars for an independent day school, they live in very nice houses, in great neighborhoods, drive expensive cars, and not a dime spared for the kids. Don't really think they will last in scouts, and this is really not typical of a scout pack. I've done this for years and this is the first time I've encountered this. I picked this pack for convenience as it is located near me and the meetings time fit my schedule, but may transfer as I really do not know anyone in this group, and they seem to all know each other. I am the old lady of the pack, as this is my last one and most of them are starting out. I had wanted to put my freshman in one of these schools for convenience sake but he did not get into any of them.</p>
<p>The Wall Street Journal has had a few interesting articles in recent years about college admissions. One was a left column front page article about a family who sacrificed all to send their kid to a top prep school, only to be disappointed in college admissons. Turned out the family (i.e. parents) did not have the right connections etc. It was an interesting read.</p>
<p>The other one was last year? and sought to identify elite college feeder schools. </p>
<p>Worth magazine, about two years ago, did an analysis of feeder high schools using face books.</p>
<p>The problem with all this is geography. If you compare a New England Prep School to, for instance, a top prep school in Chicago, you will see far more Ivy attendees from NE. Why? Close to home, parents are alums, peer pressure etc. </p>
<p>Now, consider that, based solely on number of applicants versus acceptees, many of these prep schools are harder to get into than Harvard, I'm surprised more don't go to ivies. Actually, I'm not. I just don't think comparing these schools to any others, other than perhaps their geographic competitors, tells one much of anything.</p>