Selling out for large merit aid?

Parents Forum
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<p>Yes but U of F is top 50. Not bad at all. </p>

<p>As to selling out, I personally have no problem with it. In fact , D will be at her spot in the mall tonight with her "pin the dollar on the college girl" bit between 4 and closing. Dressed in a grad gown with her mortarboard . She's just sooo cute.</p>

<p>In all seriousness, D has known since the start that we will have to get very lucky with a generous school's efc, and she'll have to take out loans greater than the norm for her to go to any of the need only schools. That's why we spend so much time looking for a home on Merit Street rather than Need Only Boulevard. It's easy to find an appealing house on Need Only Boulevard.</p>

22

<p>Unfortunately, compounding the guilt are the constant comments by others. My son's first choice right now is a school where his statistics are substantially higher than the 75% stats. He loved the school, the atmosphere, but everyone keeps telling him and us that he is too smart to go there. Since he is not much of a self-starter (and has not worked very hard in high school) that makes me worry whether he will be sufficiently challenged at this type of school. On the other hand, it is very hard to justify paying twice the cost so he will be in a school with his intellectual peers. Right now, I ignore the comments from others, figure he will go where he is happiest and if he doesn't find it challenging enough, he can transfer in a year or two. I don't relish the thought of going through the application process again, especially since it is likely harder to get into a top tier school as a transfer, but that would still work for us financially.</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
Yes but U of F is top 50. Not bad at all.

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>I guess that's the way these schools move up in the rankings. Some schools market their way there (cough<em>WashU</em>cough), others buy their way there with merit scholarships.</p>

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<p>PSAT scores should be released soon. Actually, according to the obsessives on the student side of the forum the scores have been delivered to the schools, they just haven't been given to the students yet. The cutoff scores for NMSF supposedly don't vary much from year to year. The most recent numbers that were posted in the student forum are:</p>

<p>2005 Cutoff index, #of semi. finalist, # commended::::2004 cutoff index, # semi, # Commended</p>

<p>AL,210,233,226::::208,247,201,</p>

<p>AK,211,40,51::::210,39,43,</p>

<p>AZ,211,271,339::::212,222,375,</p>

<p>AR,202,158,16,</p>

<p>CA,216,1869,4338::::216,1913,4509,</p>

<p>CO,213,234,448::::211,243,430,</p>

<p>CT,220,184,821::::219,207,904,</p>

<p>DE,220,184,821::::217,40,120,</p>

<p>FL,214,688,1390::::214,690,1457,</p>

<p>GA,217,378,1076::::214,398,904,</p>

<p>HA,216,68,191::::214,73,156,</p>

<p>ID,208,96,72::::204,92,46,</p>

<p>IL,216,694,1752::::214,726,1676,</p>

<p>IN,212,344,577::::211,339,518,</p>

<p>IA,209,208,212::::207,206,179,</p>

<p>KS,214,177,354::::212,191,274,</p>

<p>KE,210,234,231::::210,231,255,</p>

<p>LA,209,254,217::::209,274,266,</p>

<p>ME,214,83,172::::211,79,134,</p>

<p>MD,222,331,1677::::222,325,1486,</p>

<p>MA,222,333,1668::::222,337,1771</p>

<p>MI,210,591,632::::209,557,636,</p>

<p>MN,215,321,746::::212,366,606</p>

<p>MS,203,154,21::::200,165,0,</p>

<p>MO,213,344,532::::212,353,511,</p>

<p>MT,207,67,56::::206,64,58,</p>

<p>NB,208,125,87::::205,125,98,</p>

<p>NV,207,89,57::::204,87,36,</p>

<p>NH,215,75,167::::213,71,150,</p>

<p>NJ,221,480,2170::::221,492,2275,</p>

<p>NM,209,108,92::::208,108,84,</p>

<p>NY,218,955,2901::::218,956,3069,</p>

<p>NC,216,387,955::::213,361,760,</p>

<p>ND,204,50,16::::202,53,10,</p>

<p>OH,214,675,1303::::212,723,1233,</p>

<p>OK,208,224,162::::206,222,141,</p>

<p>OR,214,184,368::::213,176,393,</p>

<p>PA,215,757,1603::::215,722,1840,</p>

<p>RI,211,55,94::::213,61,122,</p>

<p>SC,213,190,354::::211,206,296,</p>

<p>SD,205,54,26::::206,60,35,</p>

<p>TN,216,258,569::::213,273,520</p>

<p>TX,216,1273,2810::::216,1248,2936,</p>

<p>UT,204,181,49::::200,196,0</p>

<p>VA,219,413,1462::::219</p>

<p>VT,213,42,97::::213,41,107,</p>

<p>WA,216,313,853::::214,350,755,</p>

<p>WV,202,108,9::::201,114,8,</p>

<p>WI,211,378,475::::209,373,419,</p>

<p>WY,203,35,10::::200,37,0,</p>

<p>D.C,222,85,215::::222,80,243,</p>

<p>Territories,202,30,3::::200,27,0</p>

<p>Outside US,222,49,337::::222,45,344,</p>

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<p>This discussion is just the boost that we needed today. Was at our son's school last night for an open house on prospective students. The GC was bragging up the school and how many kids go to Ivies, etc. Several of our son's friends are interviewing for Ivies, going ED, etc. The pressure to give in for the name and prestige (and big costs) is huge. We reassured him to "hold the line" and wait, as the RD offers WILL come. He has already been accepted to the state U and we feel confident that come spring time the state U will cost us nearly nothing. Hopefully he will have several other offers to choose from. We don't fault families who make the decision to sacrafice whatever it takes to get their S or D into their "Dream" school. If you can do it, then go for it. However, in our house, finances will play a huge factor in the final decision. Doesn't mean we aren't going to throw in one or two lottery, long ball flyers just to see what happens.</p>

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<p>Wow that's great, thanks a lot for all that information and the links!</p>

<p>Audiophile--do you think it was worthwhile for your daughter to take the PSAT as a sophmore? Son took SAT in 8th gr--that was a good test-taking experience and I think prepared him well for the eventual real thing.</p>

<p>I'm guessing that soph PSAT scores would not ever count for NMF?</p>

<p>PS Just to add/edit--yes, agree, this info about possibities that are financially a little more feasible takes a big weight off my mind, in some respects. At least it's giving a manageable option. And we'll surely be studying for the PSAT now...! :-)</p>

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<p>Jolynne,</p>

<p>Sophomore scores won't count, so it's only for practice. All IB students are required to take it sophomore year at her school. I think it's been shown that taking the tests under actual conditions help increase the scores more than studying for them or taking a prep course.</p>

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<p>Palermo, fwiw, my D was in the top 5 percent of the applicants for the school she eventually chose. It's been a great experience for her, no shortage of peers, included a modest amount of Merit Aid (thank God!), and she's in the top 5 percent in terms of academic performance so she's not slacking in the environment. She was also admitted to a "top 5" LAC and just didn't feel the fit there.</p>

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<p>At S' school they required all Sophomores to take the PSAT. I think it's a good idea. It just gets them used to the test format in a completely no-pressure situation. The PSAT score report will then be a good individualized roadmap for how to study for the "real" PSAT in Junior year.</p>

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<p>I think if you choose schools carefully, you will not end up feeling like you have compromised anything. Enough schools give merit aid, and you can try to help position your child into good schools where s/he is likely to receive aid. It takes a lot of homework and not depending on your guidance counselor.</p>

<p>You need to be up front AT THE BEGINNING about how much you can afford. You need to be careful about what schools you look at / swoon over. You need to make sure your child does not get his or her heart set on ONE particular school. Try to be objective when touring schools. You need to stay out of all the bragging conversations going on around you. Set your course and be confident.</p>

<p>My son liked all the schools he applied to and probably would have done well at any of them. He ended up at the school that gave him the best scholarship. It was a no-brainer for all of us. He's very happy and doing great. We have the best of all situations - a good school that he's happy with and we can (more or less :) ) afford.</p>

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<p>Quote from Lukester: "Doesn't mean we aren't going to throw in one or two lottery, long ball flyers just to see what happens."</p>

<p>Sounds like a plan, but one recommendation: Make it crystal clear from the outset what would be necessary financially for your child to attend one of those lottery schools. Some classmates of my kids were all ready to sign on when they got into their reach/dream school and then ended up being bitterly disappointed when told that it wasn't feasible.</p>

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<p>Last year, our EFC was about double what we felt we could afford. We had prepped S1 that merit aid would be an important factor -- I view college as a family choice, not just the student's choice. Here are a couple of thoughts:</p>

<ol>
<li> I don't think it is selling out if your family circumstances don't allow for the most expensive private option -- it's just being responsible. But it's a good idea to set the decision-making parameters with your child before applications/acceptances.</li>
<li> Success in life is more a function of individual attributes and abilities rather than just a particular credential. There are several studies which support this.</li>
<li> On the other hand, some private schools may provide more need-based aid than you might expect. If you re-read some posts about need-blind admissions, you'll see that there is some wiggle room if the college really wants a student.</li>
<li> Grad programs, at least in the sciences, are often less costly than you might think. TAs and fellowships may eliminate tuition, and grad schools may even supply a stipend for living expenses. </li>
<li> I agree that graduate school probably makes more of a difference in life than undergraduate -- but I also think there is the same gatekeeping process at that level as there is for UG, where students from lesser-known schools may have a more difficult time in getting into the more competitive grad programs.</li>
</ol>

<p>In the end, we decided it was more important to US to have our son attend the school of his choice. And he did decline a couple of full-tuition offers at wonderful schools. We are taking out PLUS loans, but since they've been in private school forever, we are used to educational payments -- these will last longer than we would have liked, though.</p>

<p>So, BHG, I think you'll just need to wait and see how things shape up in April. I was very anxious for most of S's senior year, but it really did all work out in the end. It would have been much easier, though, if I could have seen that in November-May. Best wishes for you!</p>

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<p>backhandgrip~</p>

<p>I wanted to pm you, but your pm is disabled. Let me know if you decide to enable it. Thanks. ~berurah</p>

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<p>Agree with NSM, "selling out" is a phrase I use to mean throwing aside core values. One could pose exactly the opposite question to bhg's - "selling out" for prestige or "name recognition."</p>

<p>IMO going to a school which does not have the curriculum to satisfy a kid's academic needs, challenge the kid (if challenge is what s/he wants) would be selling out. </p>

<p>But going to a school which is somewhat lower down in the USN&WR rankings but offers a solid education is not selling out at all. It is having the strength to withstand the raised eyebrows, blank stares.... of those who usually know very little about any schools other than HYPSM and their own flagship.</p>

<p>When faced with the situation such as palermo outlines (kid is above the 75%ile at school), I think the "accepted student visit" or further research via other means is what is required: sit in on some classes - are they conducted at an appropriately interesting and challenging level?; check the catalog - are the offerings broad and deep enough for this student? does s/he encounter students with similar attitudes and interests... If these answers are in the affirmative, forget the reaction of the "no-nothings." If not, then maybe the school is a little beneath the student. In such case, either reject it (and mourn the $) or, if it will suffice for a year or two, completing those years and the intro courses is a viable option.</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
In the end, we decided it was more important to US to have our son attend the school of his choice

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>I think that's the bottom line here. The mantra on CC is it's all about "fit". Fit also needs to take into account the parents. If you can afford it or wish to sacrifice, fine. But there is no need to feel guilty about your kids attending a public or school where they get good merit aid. Their success and happiness in the future will not be affected by which tier their undergraduate school is in.</p>

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<p>Do not in any way feel like your child is selling out!! A little over ten years ago I was in your child's position. I had great grades, good ACT, and strong EC's. I applied to a couple of state schools (and not in any way considered elite) and to a few LAC and got in everywhere I applied. I even got offered merit aid at one of the LAC's. However, $30,000 over four years doesn't put much of a dent in LAC tuition. Contrast that to the fact that I was offered full tuition at the state schools and it made the situation a no-brainer. My parents made too much money for need based aid, but not enough to even begin to think of paying the huge tuitions. They basically sat me down and said those schools weren't an option without big loans.</p>

<p>I chose to go to the state school where I had a fantastic experience. I actually received money back each semester because I had so much aid. The school was large enough that it was easy to find many like minded people. My state school colleagues are now successful doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, teachers, nurses, etc. who live all over the country. The best part is that I ended my undergrad degree debt free. I went on to receive two more degrees via assistantship and the cost for my education was not one penny. I have friends from high school who went to high cost schools and now are in situations where they can't afford to buy a home because their loan payments are too large. I was able to start fresh after college without that worry.</p>

<p>I'm not saying that this is the best alternative for everyone. However, I don't have one friend from college who regrets where they attended. We all have good jobs and support ourselves easily with degrees from a school that is never mentioned on CC. The point of my post is to make sure your child knows he is not selling out for merit aid. In many ways he may be making a smart financial decision and he will have opportunity for success regardless of where he goes to school.</p>

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<p>In our case, D was clueless as to the cost of schools we visited. We looked at 9. 7 are private, most are small LACs. Most have a pricetag of 40K. D's preference just happens to be a public U (not our state) that costs $500 LESS for D to attend as a non-res than our own public U as a resident! We were ready to go into debt if she fell in love with at 40K school. She tentatively asked how much it would cost to go to her favorite because she was sure it was the most expensive and it was the only one where she felt at home on campus and at which she could envision herself living for four years.</p>

<p>If she goes to the state U that stole her heart, I won't win any bragging contests at cocktail parties about WHERE she is, but I might be able to tell my friends how happy she is! Hey, I can host the party with all the money we have left over!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If she goes to the state U that stole her heart, I won't win any bragging contests at cocktail parties about WHERE she is, but I might be able to tell my friends how happy she is!

[/quote]

BBM, if you read the threads about how freshman/sophomores are doing right now you'll see that kids' happiness does not seem to correlate with the USNWR rankings. Kids can be happy at less competitive schools, and unhappy at reach/dream schools. Like those mastercard commercials say, having a child happy at their school is priceless!</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
Hey, I can host the party with all the money we have left over!

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>My dad was commenting on how devastating it would be if granddaughter didn't get into her first choice school. I told him I'll just have to console myself with a sports car and earlier retirement if that happens!</p>

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<p>love this thread. backhandgrip - good topic. - it's my understanding that colleges/universities anticipate that top students will be applying to 8 to 10 schools.......start working w/your s on a list of potential schools now. start now reviewing the common application website. review cc threads for schools w/on-line application submission - many of these are free apps.</p>

<p>jolynn - re national merit - to summarize briefly what i've found about national merit schools. the public universities in the southwest and midwest are known for recruiting national merit finalists. some offer full tuition, full-ride, etc. many publics, not just those participating in the national merit scholarship program, are very interested in enrolling national merit finalists.........some will offer "presidential" scholarships just because the student is a NMSF or nmf, and give full-tuition, etc. check with the publics in your state. keeping an nmf in-state is a plus for the publics. some privates are also very interested.........baylor, univ. of tulsa, etc.<br>
would recommend your s take the psat both his sophomore year and junior year. what is also very important is the act and the sat testing. scoring a 32 ACT means more merit aid/academic money than a 30 ACT, etc. same goes for SAT, CR & Math combined scores are used.<br>
there are different levels of merit money based on test score. go to baylor site. use their calculator there.</p>