<p>I think what you end up with is the middle class being squeezed out of the expensive private schools. They are once again becoming havens for the rich. The problematic result of going into major hock to send your child to one of these schools is that they now find themselves in an environment that is becoming increasingly class oriented.</p>
<p>I would love for my kids to have a shot at merit aid. </p>
<p>I looked at this list for math and I thought there are many places where people can get a great education in math.</p>
<p>I have a slight feeling it holds for other subjects too. </p>
<p>Group I Public
25 Departments - Ranked between 3.00 and 5.00 by the 1995 NRC Study
(List Last Updated September 2003)</p>
<p>Institution</p>
<p>Department
City University of New York, Graduate Center Mathematics
Georgia Institute of Technology Mathematics
Indiana University, Bloomington Mathematics
Michigan State University Mathematics
Ohio State University Mathematics
Pennsylvania State University Mathematics
Purdue University Mathematics
Rutgers University, New Brunswick Mathematics
State University of New York, Stony Brook Mathematics
University of California, Berkeley Mathematics
University of California, Los Angeles Mathematics
University of California, San Diego Mathematics
University of California, Santa Barbara Mathematics
University of Illinois, Chicago Mathematics, Statistics & Computer Science
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign Mathematics
University of Maryland, College Park Mathematics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Mathematics
University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Mathematics
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Mathematics
University of Oregon Mathematics
University of Texas, Austin Mathematics
University of Utah Mathematics
University of Virginia Mathematics
University of Washington Mathematics
University of Wisconsin, Madison Mathematics</p>
<p>Group I Private
23 Departments - Ranked Between 3.00 and 5.00 by the 1995 NRC Study
(List Last Updated July 2002)</p>
<p>Institution</p>
<p>Department
Boston University Mathematics
Brandeis University Mathematics
Brown University Mathematics
California Institute of Technology Mathematics
Carnegie Mellon University Mathematical Sciences
Columbia University Mathematics
Cornell University Mathematics
Duke University Mathematics
Harvard University Mathematics
Johns Hopkins University Mathematics
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Mathematics
New York University, Courant Institute Mathematical Sciences
Northwestern University Mathematics
Princeton University Mathematics
Rensselaer Polytechic Institute Mathematical Sciences
Rice University Mathematics
Stanford University Mathematics
University of Chicago Mathematics
University of Notre Dame Mathematics
University of Pennsylvania Mathematics
University of Southern California Mathematics
Washington University Mathematics
Yale University Mathematics</p>
<p>I got this list from the Univ of Oregon web site.</p>
<p>some schools which are top tier do give some money for NMS ( Carleton for example)
But ultimately I have seen several students who didn't qualify for need based aid- yet their parents weren't committed to spending the full tuition of an expensive school- do very well at honors programs at public universities- some even had a free ride there because of their scores.</p>
<p>Regarding the question of $20K vs. $40K. This is something Husband and I have discussed. We are luck that Univ of Mich is 50 miles down the road. Junior Son wants to go into Engineering at a large college, so he will probably end up at Michigan. But one day he threw out that he might want to apply at Northwestern and Stanford, too. </p>
<p>I don't think he can get into Stanford, but in the back of my mind, I wonder what would happen if Stanford suddenly realized they were short one 3.9-soccer playing-choir singing-kid from Michigan, and actually accepted him. Would he get a better enough education to justify the cost?</p>
<p>What we will probably tell him is that was have X amount of money saved for college. If he wants Stanford or Northwestern, we will take out loans for the rest. And when he graduates, the loans become his.</p>
<p>At least that's our thinking right now.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the input.</p>
<p>Oh, woe is me!!!.............</p>
<p>peggy
that was our thinking too.
We told our daughter we would pay the EFC- if she attended a school that didn't meet that- she would need to come up with loans/scholarships/work to meet the difference
She found out of state schools that didn't meet EFC but had merit aid to make up the difference- in state schools where the expenses were under EFC and decided on a private school that met EFC.</p>
<p>FWIW, I have never, ever thought that accepting merit aid large or small is "selling out." I think it can be in many circumstances the most prudent thing to do and the decision that better positions the student for eventual pursuit of a dream unburdened by enormous debt.</p>
<p>Agree with you. Selling out may be a poor choice of words however, as many have pointed out, there is tremendous pressure, both for the kids and the parents, to have student attend a college one can brag about.That, plus sequence many hope for, which is, high tier college= good standing in high tier grad/professional school = $$$$(big bucks job). I know, I KNOW, success in grad/professional school has NOTHING to do with where you cam efrom but EVERYTHING to do with how hard you work off your kiester!!</p>
<p>I don't agree with those who choose the percieved "name" of the school to be the selling point.
What about being proud of how hard you work at whatever school you attend- instead of expecting the "name" of the school to say it all.
My daughter who applied to 5 schools and who would have been happy at any of them- chose a school which is one of the best in the country- but wouldn't necessarily be recognized by someone in Jay Lenos audience.
Who cares?
I admit while I agree that there may be pressure on students from parents to attend a alma mater- someplace that they can get pats on the back from when they stick blurbs about it in holiday letters- who exactly is putting pressure on kids besides parents?
And who is putting pressure on parents?
Grandparents who have money in trust to pay for college and have to have that Ivy League sweatshirt?
I think the sweatshirt is just about $40- just buy them one and make them happy at their salsa lessons ;)</p>
<p>Emeraldkity4, you make a good point. The kids are getting the "which college angst" from their elders. They are taught this behavior.</p>
<p>It's a shame because it is a false prize.</p>
<p>I was talking to a student today who last year was seeing stars for the big names. This year is different. She has applied to some great schools that no one in her native Russia would recognize. Her mother came to school to make sure it was o.k. where her daughter was applying. The only thing that matters to them now is for daughter to go to school in the states. That's it. She sat across from me with tears in her eyes. I keep telling her daughter, you hold the key to your own success. Go for the best deal. Like my mom used to say, "it's what you do with what you got that matters."</p>
<p>backhandgrip
I tried to PM you as well.My D is a posterchild for the successful merit $$ school career..and we laughed all the way to the bank.Her education cost was 0 her dorm cost/apt cost was 0 (stipend at the school)we paid for food plan and then groceries.D didnt have to work until she wanted to (summer,senior year)able to take advantage of study abroad.NO DEBT!! parlayed admission to excellent Grad program by gathering mentors and taking advantage of Honors College guidance and thesis opportunities.No problem being from "lesser tier" that we could see in that admissions process.Full ride fellowship for PhD prgram means little debt again (fellowship is enough to pay rent and living costs as well as tuition!)Took one loan to buy some furniture and a new computer.
Resist the urge to sucumb to the "tier" pressure from offsprings parents!!!You'll see when they actually make the decisions in May how many "wind up" at institutions other than the big time admit they bragged about.I suspect alot of it turns out to be financial decisions,though they wont admit it.</p>
<p>D1 went to a State U on dstark's list and D2 is at a private school on list. The differences in costs are very substantial, but the differences in "quality" are even more apparent. It would have been a waste of money to send D1 to the private school and in fact she probably would not have done well and would not have liked it. D2 would have been bored silly at State U. The honors program had nothing to offer - just special living arrangements and liberal arts courses she was not interested in. She is taking advantage of everything available at the private U and because of who she is, it is worth it.</p>
<p>I think the real problem is the FAFSA EFC. The government just does not want to spend more money on tuition assistance and the EFC calculation is totally unreasonable. It is sad that a very, very, very small part of the military budget could make a huge difference in choices for all our kids.</p>
<p>Edad, school did d1 go to? My son is interested in many of those schools.</p>
<p>SUNY Stony Brook, but she did not do math. If SB is high on the list and you want some general info, you can send me a PM.</p>
<p>Luckily, that school isn't on the list. :)</p>
<p>I just dropped off my sophomore at class ( no more snow :( ) and we had a discussion although tangentially about values.</p>
<p>Her rec league soccer team is in the city tournament- and coming up soon against a team that has had only 2 goals scored against them all season ( by Ds team- but they lost the game)- I mentioned to her- that I noticed in the schedule- if they lost to the team that they play tonight- a team that they have always beaten- the next games would be against teams that they could easily win against- and they would end up being in the top 3 teams in the city. However- when they win against tonights team- they then will be up against the undefeated team-and will probably lose- which will change their rankings.</p>
<p>oh Point- my point was that D says- there isn't any way- that they are going to lose to a team that they could win against- just so they get an easier schedule- that would be wrong to ever do less than your best.</p>
<p>What matters for students- is what they know about themselves-
if their value comes from a place inside- their knowledge that they are doing their best & the right thing- that can't be taken away.</p>
<p>If they depend on what others tell them is the "right" thing- that thing can change- and depend on popularity and other superficial standards.
What do we want for our kids? Do we want to encourage them to get their values from "the pack" or do we want them to learn what is right for them & to go after it?</p>
<p>Some kids are more influence by peers- some of my friends have girls- that while don't have "mean girls" themselves- their daughters are eager to be accepted by the group of girls that have defined themselves by how exclusive they are.
I am not arguing that very competitive schools are not great schools- but they are not the only great schools outthere- and we need to remind each other and our kids- that a school that isn't a good fit- academically- socially- financially- isn't worth it- no matter how many looks the brand name bumper sticker gets you.</p>
<p>spoke w/a friend who went to a selective LAC private. had partial scholarship aid and some loans. he said he doesn't regret taking out the loans and values his educational experience. what was important to him were the opportunities to work closely with professors as mentors, etc. so...............to me it would seem that opportunities to work closely with professors exist at both publics and privates. good questions to ask when students are researching a particular school.</p>
<p>bhg, Then I think it's sad if students or parents surrender to that pressure. I think there might be particular instances that an undergrad degree at a pricey, prestigious U might be for that student an important foot-in-the-door (to some career or grad school opportunity) that would otherwise not be available. But that's a practical choice, not a name-brand choice per se.</p>
<p>I agree about the name-conscious relatives buying the accessories separately. I see lots of people, btw, wearing Yale or whatever sweatshirts. Sometimes I've had occasion to ask people if they go to that school: no, & not their relatives, either. They got the sweatshirt from someone else or bought it online.</p>
<p>I am committed to having my son graduate without any debt. I feel sure he will go on to some type of graduate study, which will become his responsibility, and I don't want him to start out owing money before that. However, I cannot commit to the full cost of most privates; for family reasons we are not eligible for financial aid (although the money is not mine, on paper we have assets)We looked at George Washington, which he loved, and it is $49K this year!!!!! On the other hand, Univ of Toronto, one of the finest universities in the world, is $18K USD including room and board for an American student. I told him I would need to understand why GW was worth 31K more per year than UT. He understood completely where I was coming from. He has applied to a mix of privates and publics. He may well get merit aid at one or two privates. I can afford to send him as an out of state student to any public (our state U is unfortuantely mediocre), and some of them are excellent as you all know.
I personally think it's a matter of getting value for the money. Sure, if I had it to spend, I guess he could go to GW or NYU, but honestly there are better schools that cost less. And maybe we wouldn't have had to dig so hard to find out about those schools if I could do $49K a year. I don't feel guilty, and it's not selling out to include finances in the college equation.</p>