<p>Today my dad told me that the value of an undergrad education at a top 20 schools is diminishing and all that matters is where your grad degree is from. I understand some of the truth behind this but I dont want to believe that the undergrad doesnt matter! </p>
<p>I'm forsure going to grad school, whether it be engineering, law, or med, and im being told now that "ok good if you get into the Upenn's of the world, but realize that a state school is less money and offers what the better schools do in terms of undergrad."</p>
<p>Money isn't the real problem, itll just be convincing my parents to shell out the extra $ for undergrad, when they are starting to believe that a big state school would suffice and prestigiousness of the grad school is all that matters. </p>
<p>I feel like I've worked hard for 4 years and dont want to end up at my state school.....but are they right?
HELPPPP!!!!</p>
<p>and dont take that last comment as pretentiousness. I love my state schools, and would prbly be happy going there. I just dont wanna go there if i get accepted to my better schools. Or i mean i dont wanna go there because my parents think the undergrad value is the same there as my “good” schools…</p>
<p>You think money isn’t really a problem, but most people aren’t wealthy enough that an extra $30,000 a year for four years isn’t a big deal. If you really are in that happy situation, ok, but your father may not agree. And many people go to Big State U quite happily and find that it educates them nicely.</p>
<p>I’m not a hiring manager, but it’s my understanding that your father is correct about the value of an undergrad degree vs a graduate degree. <strong>IF</strong> you actually do decide to go to grad school. You’re so sure now, but what if you change your mind?</p>
<p>Also, while you can find great opportunities at Big State U, those opportunities are easier to find at a school that’s set up to be more than the basic education.</p>
<p>If your dad is the one paying for your education, he is the one who gets to say where you go. Medical school and law school are obscenely expensive, so it is best to save money where you can.</p>
<p>interesting. honestly though its not about the money per se. Its more about convincing him.</p>
<p>But yea i see what your saying, grad school matters more. I guess i’m just a little delusional about the academics of a top 20 school and im not being practical about my future. Gotta look down the road i guess…</p>
<p>My son worked his tail off too – and he didn’t want to end up at his state school, which is the U. of Virginia. He got into William & Mary and didn’t like the place. Several excellent private schools, including Washington U., offered him nice merit money, but it was not enough. He was a National Merit kid, so he took the offer from Alabama. Best decision, he said, that he ever made. He’s in a top flight honors program, has a chance to double major (maybe even triple major), already has interned for his Congressman and is researching with a professor this fall. He also will graduate debt free and hopes to go to grad school.</p>
<p>State schools are not horrible places. Just look at Virginia, Michigan and North Carolina as examples. Alabama and many state schools value what you do in the classroom and on the SAT/ACT, and they reward you for your effort. They have good programs. Do not rule them out.</p>
<p>vikings - It’s a little “late in the game” to be having this discussion. When our kids were freshmen in HS we told them that we would pay for our public flagship, and if they wanted something more they’d have to earn academic scholarships to make up the difference. (Like you) neither wanted the state flagship, so they spent their HS years getting the necessary grades and test scores.</p>
<p>I’m certain an excellent case can be made for attending private universities. But if there’s no money for that … well it’s certainly not in your best interest to take on lots of debt for UG. You CAN reach your goals with a state school UG education. It may not be the preferred path, but it is certainly a viable one.</p>
<p>Exactly what my son did. We told him we would pay the $50k a year for UG but then grad school was probably on this own dime (he’s certain he will go to grad or professional school) or he could go to the state school (he’s in the honors college) and we would foot the bill for graduate education. You would be amazed at the number of top students who end up in their state honors college. At son’s school, quite a few of them got into top 20 or Ivies.</p>
<p>You really need to look at it in terms of your long-term goals. Very few parents are willing to pay for graduate school, so if you dad’s offering to pay UG and grad school, you are pretty lucky. The top 20 almost all have grad schools, too…so you will have another chance at it.</p>
<p>My son goes to state school and my daughter to a private school. </p>
<p>Son gets no financial aid other than his student loans. He has had trouble getting into the classes he needs. The school keeps crying about budget cuts as to the reason why they don’t offer enough sections of specific classes. He has been in school 4 years and needs a 5th to graduate. A senior project that can only be started in the fall and lasts the entire school year is what put him over the edge. He was missing a couple of the prerequisites last fall. He is somewhat typical as the department head, during freshmen orientation, told the students and parents that their 4 year graduation rate was 15%. He then went on to say that their 4 year and 2 quarters graduation rate was 85%. With rent as my son’s biggest single expense, it makes little difference between 4 years and 2 quarters and 5 years as far as my expenses go.</p>
<p>Daughter got a pretty good scholarship package bringing the cost down to less than 20% more than the state school. The state schools are upping their costs every year, the private school went up also, but at a much slower pace. So by the time she graduates, it could be close as to which is more expensive. The 4 year graduation rate at the private school is around the 5 year graduation rate of the state school.</p>
<p>So, my advice is to plan on applying to both state and private schools. You can compare the “packages” that you are offered and make your choice then. It also doesn’t hurt to talk to the financial aid office at the private school and ask for a better offer. My experience with state schools is that they have a formula and no “wiggle” room with it.</p>
<p>Another consideration, my son will be a year older (assuming that my daughter will graduate after 4 years) and will have missed that year’s worth of income, either right after his BS or later after his MS.</p>
<p>Further, IMHO, it does can a difference where you get your undergraduate degree. Just like applying to undergraduate schools, the stronger your preparation is the more likely you’ll get in. Not to say that state schools aren’t as strong, just why would you be concerned about this if you weren’t thinking about applying to a stronger private school?</p>
<p>Some state schools are better than others, so it matters what state you’re from. There’s no important academic difference between top state schools–such as UVA, UNC, Michigan, Berkeley, and UCLA–and most private schools, though the ambiance and amenities may be considerably less upscale. In my experience teaching at both kinds of institutions, you can get everything at a big public flagship that you can get at an elite private school of the same size, but you need to be more proactive about it. For instance, at Princeton, every single kid does a junior and senior independent project. At UVA, the most ambitious kids get themselves into the honors program in their major, work one-on-one with professors, and do independent studies and an honors thesis (same as a “senior independent project”). But the less ambitious kids are not made to go this route. Likewise academic advising is much more intensive at Princeton than at UVA, where students are expected to be more self-sufficient; they are assigned a faculty advisor, but generally go about picking their classes pretty independently. There’s generally more variety of all kinds at state flagships, which can be more fun but which can also make it easier to lose focus. More is left up to the student. So if you’re a self-starter, you’ll be fine at a flagship. If you’re a smart kid that needs a lot of handholding and personal attention you might be better off at an elite LAC.</p>
<p>It’s very unwise to get way in debt for your undergraduate education if you plan to go to law or med school. Grad school is funded by fellowships under some circumstances, but med and law school are almost always on your own dime. Even if your parents’ resources are substantial, and they could pay full freight at an expensive undergraduate school, it might be better to let them save their money now and help you out later on.</p>
<p>If your family is lower-income, the calculus changes, since often the richest and most elite schools are the most generous with need-based financial aid. But it doesn’t sound as if you fall into this category. The calculus also would change, obviously, if you got a big merit scholarship from an elite private school. The Ivies don’t give merit aid but other top 20 schools do.</p>
<p>Its pretty simple, a top grad school is going to want someone from UC Berkeley more than Cal state Fresno. Now if you have a 2.5 at Berkeley, and a 4.0 at state then it may be a different story</p>
<p>If you’ve lurked here at all, you know you’ve hit a CC hot button. There are some folks here, like many HS kids, and some families who are obsessed with the top 20 schools. And there are some folks here who believe a state flagship, ANY state flagship, is ALWAYS the better value than any private school unless the school offers enough fin aid to make the costs equal.</p>
<p>Myself, I think we don’t have enough information. The top 20 schools are very good. SOME state schools are very good. There are lots of privates other than the top 20, some of which will give merit aid to a very qualified candidate. We do not know your family’s financial situation. We do not know what state you live in. We do not know how your state flagship is a fit or not for you in terms of size, location, etc. Therefore, I cannot really answer you. </p>
<p>It is true A. That as the top 20 have gotten harder to get into, folks have reexamined the next 40 or 50 schools, both public and private. The top state schools are sometimes called “the public ivies” and the top privates below the top 20, “the new ivies” B. IF you go to grad school, the grad school will probably be more important to your career than undergrad</p>
<p>“It’s a little “late in the game” to be having this discussion.”
No, not really. I’ve gotten the grades and worked hard in high school to “maybe” get accepted to schools that only offer need based aid. So ill just have to wait til everything comes back in April and we will decide from there I guess. </p>
<p>My state schools are Purdue and IU btw, solid schools but nothing special I guess. </p>
<p>Thanks for the opinions so far though, I think ill just wait and see come April. But I agree that the state school can be great, thanks momreads.</p>
<p>IMHO, too many people look at college like they would buying a commodity like a dishwasher. Colleges are not created equal. The point is to be educated and challenged. Not only by the professors but by your peers as well. Undergrad years should be THE transformative years of your life. It should not be Vo-Tech school nor should it be judged on a cost/benefit analysis.</p>
<p>Its your life. Take control and become the person you want to be. Your dad’s advice may be good for engineers and accountants but if you want to become a thinker and a do"er" your undergrad years matter very much.</p>
<p>Good luck and keep asking questions. It’s a good life-skill.</p>
<p>While I don’t believe parents should have all the say in where a kid goes to college if they are paying, I do believe they should have final say. </p>
<p>Yes, you worked hard to get to go to a great college and I completely understand your frustration. However, your parents worked hard too. Saving money for college is a b*tch and apparently they’ve done that for you. Thus, unless you want to pay for yourself or somehow figure out a way to have them pay and you subsidize so you can go to your dream school, you are at their mercy.</p>
<p>Yes, it sucks and yes it’s not entirely fair. Consider this, I know people who will pay NOTHING towards their kid’s college eduction. Not because they don’t have the resources (they do to a point) and not because they haven’t had the opportunity to plan. They just have not set that as a priority in their lives. They feel it’s up to their kids to figure it out. I find this notion completely ridiculous but it’s out there and with the economy getting worse and with people losing their retirements I predict we will start to see more people going this route.</p>
<p>So consider yourself fortunate that you will have help to go to college in the first place.</p>
<p>Tippy-top undergrad + top med school or law school is going to be around $400,000 total. Probably more. That’s a lot of money. Your parents could buy two Rolls Royces. Or a house. Or a really amazing media setup. Engineering grad school will be cheaper, if not free.</p>
<p>It sounds like you have a few options:</p>
<p>1) Have parents who are able to foot the entire bill. From your viewpoint, this is the ideal. From the parental viewpoint, this would be ideal except for pesky issues like retirement, mortgage payments, and having to replace the fridge, which is busted.</p>
<p>2) Have your parents pay for undergrad, and then you take over for grad/professional school. You could work for a few years, save like mad, and use that money. Or you could work for a few years, save something, and then borrow some more. Or you could borrow the entire cost, because lawyers and doctors make lots of money. Except when they don’t, but pay no attention to the newly-minted top school lawyers who can’t find jobs. Or, win the lottery.</p>
<p>3) Go cheap for undergrad, with the understanding with your parents that they will help with grad/med/law school. Use the impressive work ethic you’ve developed during high school to wow your professors during undergrad, leading to all kinds of wonderful research opportunities, outstanding grades, and excellent recommendations. Finish up with minimal loans.</p>
<p>My high school senior is also mulling over this issue, and may yet decide on option (2). That’s not necessarily the wrong answer; a distinctive undergrad experience brings its own rewards, though with a certain price.</p>
<p>“ts pretty simple, a top grad school is going to want someone from UC Berkeley more than Cal state Fresno. Now if you have a 2.5 at Berkeley, and a 4.0 at state then it may be a different story”</p>
<p>Can’t speak for grad schools in general but, for law school, there is no basis whatsoever for this comment. Law school only (with very limited exceptions) care about UG GPA and LSAT score. That’s what the USNWR rankings are based on, and that is how they admit. So, arguably, a student is better off choosing a school that is lower ranked where they are more likely to get that 4.0. </p>
<p>Once upon a time, law schools weighted GPAs based on UG institution. This is no longer the common practice, if it’s practiced at all. </p>
<p>So, at most, you might gain a slight advantage if your “lower” ranked school means you do better, but there is nothing lost all things being equal. </p>
<p>Debt, however, is a very serious concern. Professional schools (law or med) are VERY expensive and can easily cost north of 150k (living expenses included). So by choosing a debt-free undergrad, you set yourself up to be able to take on this level of debt for your advanced degree.</p>
<p>Finally, law firms care primarily about your gpa/class rank and the prestige of your law school (this weighs heavily on where you even have the opportunity to interview). Your dad is correct in this respect.</p>
<p>This was a huge debate in our home. We do not qualify for FA at any school and h ad saved a lot for S’s education, but we had a limit. We told him how much we had put asside and pointed out it was we could pay for any of the undergrad options, but he could use the savings as he saw fit to pay for undergrad and/or grad–if he burned through the substantial savings as an undergrad, he was on his own for grad school. </p>
<p>He applied to some state schools, good art schools and programs OOS and a few very prestigious/selective/expensive schools. He got in almost everywhere with full scholarship to state Tier II with good art program and some pretty good merit aid to private art programs and OOS universities. No or little merit at the really selective programs. </p>
<p>If he took the Tier II free ride he had enough savings for grad school (2 year program MFA) at any program in the country (plus we offered a trip to europe each year since we would be paying zero for undergrad-even room and board was covered). If he took the more expensive OOS or private with merit aid he would have had enough to pay 1/2 grad school from his savings. But after much heart burning he chose his dream program at one of the exclusive/expensive private top-20s and is fully aware that once undergrad is over we will not support any more studies. Why did we let him make this choice? He articulated clearly his reasons:</p>
<ol>
<li>this program was the perfect fit of art and technology that he wanted</li>
<li>he thinks he will come out of this program positioned to get work but much less likely at all the other programs.</li>
<li>he is not interested in pursuing an MFA immediately, perhaps never.</li>
<li>He will constantly be aware that he has to get everything possible out of these four years and will be on his game from day one.</li>
<li>He will be surrounded by the very best–teachers, peers–in his fields of study so he thinks he will have exceptionally productive 4 years.</li>
</ol>
<p>We hope he is right and we know it is risky. If he had said he wanted to do an MFA for sure he would have seen that the economics pointed to the in-state or moderate cost out of state with merit aid. If he is wrong, well, he will have to work for some time to position himself for grad school and go into debt. We have told DD hs '13 that she will also have a guaranteed undergrad whereever she wants, but since she wants to do med school she will probably apply only instate with perhaps a long shot merit aid OOS or private LAC. </p>
<p>I think the OP should apply to a variety of schools but be able to clearly explain why he thinks that the non-state options are “worth” the differential to him. He also needs to accept his parents’financial limits (whether he sees them as real or not) and work to get merit aid that can give him several options in April. And, in the end, no matter where he attends he needs to extract everything he can from the experience.</p>
And many people go to Big State U quite happily and find that it educates them nicely.</p>
Or, win the lottery.</p>