<p>here is data on our “edge”
[The</a> State of Black Student Freshman Enrollments at the Nation’s Highest-Ranked Colleges and Universities](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/61_enrollments.html]The”>The State of Black Student Freshman Enrollments at the Nation’s Highest-Ranked Colleges and Universities)</p>
<p>read’em and weep.</p>
<p>Wow. African Americans get a huge boost. Never knew it was that big.</p>
<p>“Gosh, did I say GPA in my post?”</p>
<p>No, Millancad, but the OP referenced GPA “jokes”, and I am not familiar with that. I think SAT scores would be different.</p>
<p>Do colleges like HYP give black students a break for GPA as well, or no? (I would think that they wouldn’t because of common sense but idk)</p>
<p>Decanela: O.0 WHOAAAAA</p>
<p>Millancad: I think racial AA in theory is a good idea because unlike Asians, there is a cultural and societal stigma to overcome for black students. Also, besides the few asian minorities you mention and native americans, economically, blacks tend to be the worst off. Alot of us come from single-parent households (somewhere near 60-70% and higher in some areas) and that has a HUGE impact on the family dynamic, specifically black males as most of the time it is the father that is absent.
And the fact of the matter is that ORM’s, specifically Asians, get admitted at much higher rates than their percentage of the population. Which speaks to the importance of culture.</p>
<p>I do agree however that education of URM’s as a whole needs to be reformed, not just at the college level. And there are people and programs working to help at the elementary, middle, and high school levels.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
What?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Stereotype threat and socialization definitely affect the education of black people, I’m 100% there with you on that. The IQ of black children goes down when they reach school age, meet a bunch of people, and are socialized and indoctrinated into a culture with a prevalent stereotype of black ignorance. And when black students are reminded of that stereotype before tests, they do worse that they would have otherwise. I’m also well-aware that over 70% of black children are born to single mothers. It’s a problem, but I don’t think that AA as it exists is fixing it.
Again, [racial</a> AA most helps people with recent African ancestry (who have higher incomes, home ownership rates, and higher rates of college education than people of traditional African American ancestry) and blacks with high incomes](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/56_race_sensitive_not_helping.html]racial”>University Race-Sensitive Admissions Programs Are Not Helping Black Students Who Most Need Assistance). I’d be willing to be that these groups encounter those prejudices both you and I mentioned less than poorer blacks and blacks of traditional ancestry, since the “ignorant black person” stereotype is very much attached to the “ghetto black person” stereotype. Wealthy people, are of course, unlikely to live in ghettos. Africans have a higher income of course, so they are less likely to live in ghettos on that note, but as immigrants, they are also more likely to choose ethnic enclaves, which are not usually ghettos as the word is used in America today. (African ethnic enclaves might actually be ghettos, as per their pure denotation and not their connotation.) These are not the people, for the most part, who are born into single parent households. You’re saying you want a system that helps out poor blacks and blacks being raised by single mothers, so why are you advocating for a system that doesn’t?</p>
<p>Millancad: I’m not advocating in the sense of saying that racial AA as it exists is perfect. It’s obviously flawed. But I think the idea has good intentions and is trying to ‘level the playing field’ in a sense. Obviously, there are flaws with that. The African-immigrant and wealthy black students still dominating the benefit from AA. But, I think it does achieve some purpose.
Myself, for example, live in a lower middle class family with my widowed, American mother and sister. She makes about 60,000 usually but is currently unemployed. Do I think AA will help my sister and I? Yes. Do I think it helps others like us, with college-educated single parents and other situations? Yes. Is it perfect? Of course not. I agree with what you’re saying, but I think AA does more good than harm as far as adding to diversity and giving more black students a chance, regardless of where they came from.</p>
<p>Entertainer, I did not know about this edge either until I heard something on TV about AA ( probably was CNN during their Obama campaign coverage). Even then, I still did not believe in this edge as I only applied to schools that were within my low SAT range (1640, yeah that’s pretty low) and like a couple of reaches. Low and behold I got accepted to three reaches (UGA, Agnes Scott, and Emory U) and denied at my safety (Stony Brook LOL) and another reach (Fordham). What really got me in was my GPA (3.9ish), class rank(top 10%), and my ECs and essay. I think it would be okay to conclude that AA applies to only SAT scores, but then I’m even skeptical about that statement!</p>
<p>@ Missy: It’s really weird I don’t really understand AA sometimes. Congrats in getting into Emory U. Very good school. Honestly it seems that most African Americans apply with really high GPA’s, but low test scores. That seems to be re-occurring. Even if you look at the actual results thread, that seems to be the case for many of the top black students that got into ivy league schools. Low in comparison to unhooked applicants that usually apply.</p>
<p>Its funny how you got rejected from your safety though.</p>
<p>missy; Please keep “us” updated about your experience at Emory. We were really impressed, and my daughter almost went there.</p>
<p>My son had an advantage at some school being multi-racial, but it didn’t help as much with FA. He knows some people will say he only got in because of race, but he’s bright,got good grades,was on the dean’s list consistently and asked to join numerous honor societies. He doesn’t feel he didn’t earn anything he got. He knows students that got into schools because of sports, because they played a certain instrument, because they could pay full tuition, because of double legacies, etc.,etc. It’s all what you do when you get in, eveyone hopefully adds something to the equation. I know URM’s and white students that wouldn’t go to a college without other URM’s there or at least over 3%. That type of bubble wasn’t something they wanted and colleges want to be as attractive to all as they can be.
I know scores, although debated on this site, aren’t always indicitive on results. An 1800 SAT student at Yale is doing fine, a 1950 student, my daughter met is loving it, I’m sure there are many others. Colleges want their students to succeed, sometimes they don’t, but they don’t usually admit students they don’t think will do well.
As one AO told me at a good LAC college, “We don’t take anyone we don’t want, one student doesn’t keep another out”.</p>
<p>
Wow, does this happen often? I would like to hope that once people are in college, they would have outgrown the bitterness/pettiness of complaining about AA, or saying that AA was the only reason someone got into a certain college. Because like you said, Debruns, colleges have the attitude of…
And I think sometimes, unfortunately, that’s hard for some people to understand.</p>
<p>Yes, there is an ego involved in thinking a certain person kept you out, that you were next in the pile. My neighbor was close to an AO at Wesleyan years ago and he said he sometimes wanted to tell parents when they bemoaned how another student didn’t deserve to go to a certain college or alluded to it keeping their son/daughter out, how absurd that was. No gun is being held to any admissions officers head, if it makes someone feel better to think their child was just under the pile of the admitted student, so be it, but many find even on re-applying, that they still don’t get in. You can’t make it that personal. Many good students can’t get into certain colleges.
My son luckily didn’t hear that often in regard to himself, but sometimes about others. He once said, when a student spouted that he wished he was a URM, that he could safely bet any amount of money, if that could change permanently and live life as an African American or other URM, he wouldn’t. This particular student just got very quiet.
When I was young, I heard a young black child on TV say to a white adult who was telling him how great things were after the Civil war now, “If you could live to be 50 and be white or 100 and be black, what would you choose?” He got very quiet too. : )
Nothing is perfect, but there is still too much bitterness on both sides and an entitlement that is wrong.</p>
<p>Many colleges value diversity and believe it is critically important to their current mission. I happen to agree. But sadly, there are simply not enough high achieving African-American students to meet demand. Thus, schools do the best they can from their respective applicant pools to recruit the most capable students that apply. </p>
<p>This is not unfair to asians, whites, or other groups as people often complain. Why? Because colleges absolutely engage in social engineering, and they are going to make sure they get a certain mix of backgrounds, talent, life experiences, etc. within their student body. An admit for an African-American student does not = a rejection for an Asian or Caucasion student. It is much more likely to = a rejection for another African-American student. Applicants are most often competing against other applicants with similar profiles that the college wants as part of its socially engineered community. </p>
<p>It wouldn’t matter if the top 10,000 applicants to Harvard (based on stats) were all 100% Asian, far more than the number of seats available. Ultimately, the overall racial and ethnic make up of the admitted student body would very likely be similar to what is right now. They are not engineering for a monolithic student body, they are engineering for diversity – of all types. </p>
<p>Think of it like an orchestra. Even if the very best auditions were consistently delivered by those playing the flute, there are still going spots for those playing the bassoon, clarinet, french horn, etc. It would be absurd to hear the rejected flute players claiming discrimination because their audition was “technically” better than the chosen bassoon players. Sorry, the orchestra needs people to play all the needed instruments, not just the flute. Same with admissions. Colleges and universities need all types of students to make them attractive, vibrant communities – not just the statistical superstars. </p>
<p>This is why it’s important for people to select the right colleges, especially if they are looking for scholarships. Different schools have different needs and most will do a little extra to fill their needs if they are having difficulty. Students are best served when they find colleges that need more people with what they have to offer, whether it’s something adding to the school’s diversity, or a specific talent.</p>
<p>FLVDAD, that was a very interesting and insightful approach to the importance of diversity in a college setting(I liked the analogy). Personally I’m for diversity, even if it means that other races will be at a “disadvantage.”(Not really) There are people that constantly ■■■■■ these forums stating that the African Americans that are getting into elite colleges are unqualified. Maybe they are in certain admission criteria, but colleges aren’t looking for that. </p>
<p>People keep making the assumption that the only things colleges want are people with the best grades, achievements, awards, standardized tests, etc. That is very true, but they also want, different kinds of students, whether its racially, ethnically, or culturally motivated. They want outstanding students from any race, gender, or creed. </p>
<p>Honestly I get that, “you got in because you are are black” crap all the time. I just ignore it because I know that I will succeed wherever I go. I’m smart, but I don’t have the best grades to show it. When I went to Michigan for orientation I was surprised at how people wanted to know me. Even though I was shy and quiet, people were really interested in what I was about. No one questioned “what” got me in, or how I got in. Everyone wanted to meet new people and share their experiences. That is what college is about. After you are accepted into your dream school or college that you were ecstatic about attending, you will find that no one cares about how you got in. They just care about getting to know you and working with you.</p>
<p>This is how you build life-long friends. Seriously we have an edge because the African American applicant pool isn’t necessarily as strong as the Asian or Caucasian applicant pool. However don’t rely on the edge to get in. Just put all your effort into your application and see what happens. If you get in, Congratulations. If you are denied; at least you tried.</p>
<p>Like you said: " colleges want to attract students." I honestly would have never attended Michigan if its African American population population was less than 3.5%. I would never apply to any UC school or school with a low percentage of black people. Even though most prestigious universities have low percentages of blacks, it’s still a turn off when I see universities with black populations less than or equal to 3%. It’s just disgusting. Honestly the UC schools, or similar schools won’t attract many URM’s because of the low chances of getting accepted.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The high graduation rates among African-Americans at elite schools proves them wrong. I’m not aware of any professors that grade on a “race” curve.</p>
<p>“the UC schools, or similar schools won’t attract many URM’s because of the low chances of getting accepted.”</p>
<p>I don’t know about that, but I think the kids who WOULD be accepted, at schools like UCLA, Cal, and UCSD, would find more African American students elsewhere. Personally, I’m willing to pay big bucks for that.</p>
<p>“race curve” Thats kind of hilarious!</p>
<p>Yea, the graduation rates at prestigious universities for African Americans thwart the national averages.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap some African Americans, at least the ones I know will apply to prestigious universities with a decent percentage of blacks as opposed to universities with unreasonably low percentages.</p>
<p>I’d like to come at this topic from a different perspective. As opposed to the OP, i do well on tests ( AP Bio 5, Euro 4, SATII Bio 730) however my GPA isn’t so high 3.6. Now there’s a lot of talk about how colleges are viewing URMs with high GPA but low test scores (and how they sometimes “forgive” the scores) but what about vice versa? Personally, i go to a small competitive private school and came from a TERRIBLE school system for elementary school through middle school. For an african american coming from a bad environment to a school like mine, how would colleges view this? I ask because sometimes where a kid goes to school and their academic background have an effect on their performance in high school, especially if there’s a drastic change in culture and rigor. This is by no means a chance post but merely an inquiry. What do you guys think?</p>
<p>It’s the whole package that counts.</p>