<p>Because its intellectualy dishonest.</p>
<p>littleathiest,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, fabrizio, colleges don't know you're Jewish when you apply to them. Thus, how can there be an anti-Semitic bias in the Ivy Leagues? Nowhere on the application does it ask for your religion. Unless you put down something religion-related in your ECs or mention it in an essay, they have no clue if you're Jewish.
[/quote]
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<p>In post #17, I wrote It is the former group [Ashkenazic] who were by and large the victims of anti-Semitism in the Ivy Leagues **decades ago, not the latter group.</p>
<p>Either my writing was not clear enough or you accidentally ignored that. I’d like to think that there isn’t significant anti-Semitism in Ivy League admissions now, but that was not the case many years ago. (Holistic admissions was devised to reduce Jewish admissions. Now, it’s the bastion of “inclusion.” How times have changed.)</p>
<p>You say that unless the student mentions his religion, the admissions officers won’t know that he is Jewish. As I mentioned, Ashkenazic Jews are the ones with the distinct “Jewish names.” Just like people know a student with last name Zhang is Asian even if he doesn’t check the box, an admissions officer is probably going to know that a guy with last name Lipschitz is Jewish.</p>
<p>SaveD,</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sufficiently Spanish that my mother's maiden name is Iberian, which may just be a very lucky coindicence of 500 years of the name being passed down through a thin line of paternity, though I doubt it. My appearance is often cited as Hispanic, so it must also be sufficiently present in my genes. Why not go for it?
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<p>Looks to me like you’ll be applying to colleges this fall or later.</p>
<p>You obviously identify with your mother’s Sephardic heritage. It’s not like you suddenly found out and decided to play the game.</p>
<p>Why don’t you get a name change to fit Spanish / White Hispanic South American custom?</p>
<p>I don’t know what your last name is, but I’ll call it X for purpose of example. Let’s denote your mom’s maiden name, which is Iberian, as Y.</p>
<p>Under Spanish custom, your name would be X-Y. So, part of your last name is White-sounding and the other part is Hispanic-sounding. You’ve got this base covered. Now, work on your essays and good luck.</p>
<p>A Cuban Jew or a Mexican Jew or a Puerto Rican Jew (and yes, there are such people) could legitimately call herself Hispanic. The question is whether a Spanish Jew could legitimately call herself Hispanic. If non-Jewish students of Spanish descent can call themselves Hispanic, so can a Jewish one. It's the fact of country of origin, not religion, that would define whether someone is or is not Hispanic.</p>
<p>I think colleges are recruiting URMs like poor African-Americans (not Africans) or Hispanics (not folks who come from Spain) because our country has significant populations of those groups which send a disproportionately low number of students to college and graduate school (and into professional fields, particularly the sciences and medicine). This is because of current effects of poverty and historical discrimination. </p>
<p>I have not heard of a large population of US Sephardic Jews suffering disproportionately from poverty and/or a lack of opportunity at this time. When colleges say "Hispanic", I think they mean people from Central or South America (and who are typically of mixed Spanish and Native heritage). I would ask what they mean by the term, and respond honestly according to their definition.</p>
<p>spideygirl, does that suggest that a middle-class or upper-class African-American should not designate him or herself that way? How about middle- or upper-class Catholic Hispanics? You may be correct that income, and not race or ethnicity, is what should be considered, but as long as a person can answer the question honestly, there should be no issue.</p>
<p>(And simply becuase you have not "heard" of a large population of Sephardic, or even Ashkenazic Jews, suffering from poverty or lack of opportunity does not mean that it doesn't happen. There are such populations in the US.)</p>
<p>Chedva...</p>
<p>I think once the question is answered honestly (considering the intentions of the school in asking it), the adcoms will certainly take into consideration the economic background of the applicant.</p>
<p>Across the nation certain professional fields lack appropriate representation from Hispanic and African-American populations (so colleges actively try to recruit there). This is news I have come across, so I am aware of it. If you suspect that there is a similiar situation with Sephardic Jews, perhaps you could uncover news about it and post links about that here. If you suspect that the situation exists yet has been overlooked by researchers or the media, you could do the leg work and publish a paper or an article on it.</p>
<p>You know what they mean, and you know what they want. You don't see white Americans claiming to be Irish, German, or whatever so you shouldn't claim to be "Hispanic", just because your ancestors lived there a while centuries ago.</p>
<p>And plus, you don't even know for sure, if your ancestors are from Spain...</p>
<p>
[quote]
You don't see white Americans claiming to be Irish, German, or whatever so you shouldn't claim to be "Hispanic", just because your ancestors lived there a while centuries ago.
[/quote]
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<p>When I lived in the Midwest, I found plenty of people who were proud of their Scandinavian heritage.</p>
<p>I live in the South now, and I've met quite a few classmates who know their family backgrounds. (One is both Irish and German.)</p>
<p>Since SaveD's mom's maiden name is Iberian, it's clear that it's been in the family for at least two generations.</p>
<p>My mother's maiden name is that of a large and well-known Spanish Jewish family that went to Italy post-Inquisition. There is no doubt as to my relation. However, the question is how much I am of that family, since it could be just a thin line of paternity up until my mother, or it could be up to an eighth or even a fourth. Also, Sephardic Jews are not very well-represented in college admissions.</p>
<p>SaveD,</p>
<p>As long as you identify with the culture and feel comfortable, go ahead. Hispanic in the loosest and most inclusive sense is all about original Spanish extraction, which fits you.</p>
<p>I've never liked the "under," "well," and "over" prefixes for representation. Instead, I'll say that there aren't many students of Sephardic stock in American universities. As I previously wrote, unlike their Ashkenazi brethren, they typically don't have "Jewish names." They have names which are very much Spanish and Portuguese (e.g. Alvarez, Castro, Zapatero, etc.) If they faced anti-Semitic discrimination, it could not have resulted from their surnames.</p>
<p>I love it when the most cherished dogmas of the diversity crowd are used against them. It's fun to see how they react when amorphous and nebulous words like "diversity" and "inclusion" are used in ways that don't suit them.</p>
<p>I don't see how the descendant of a sixteenth-century Spanish emigrant to South America has more of a right to claim Hispanic than SaveD does. In both cases, the people have blood that originated from Spain.</p>
<p>You can put whatever you want. If people want to suddenly "identify" with an advantageous race at college admissions time, when in 99% of other situations that race isn't advantageous, then I think they can do that. However they should be aware if they do not have a name associated with this race, any cultural ties to this race, and do not look like this race, it is unlikely that they will be evaluated to have actually experienced life as this race, which is probably a fair enough assessment IMO.</p>
<p>Besides, the race your parents entered as in kindergarten is usually on the transcript info. For IB exams, we have to put the race that was entered in school system when we started, you cannot simply decide you are an "other" or this race now, otherwise it causes problems with the registration because discrepancies are flagged. So go ahead if your parents entered you are hispanic 12 years ago and this information is verifiable through your school system. But based on the information provided, I highly doubt that 12 years ago and in the interim you were identified as "Hispanic". I would advise caution but if ultimately it is that important to you, go ahead and take the chance, it is your application.</p>
<p>FYI...From the American Sephardi Federation:</p>
<p>Jews are considered Sephardic who come from countries in the Balkans, North Africa, the Middle East, the Netherlands, parts of Europe, Ethiopia and even as far as China. The first Jews to arrive in the United States were Sephardic Jews of Portuguese and Dutch origin. It is said that the first twenty-three Jews arrived in New Amsterdam from Recife, Brazil in 1654.</p>
<hr>
<p>Now that you mention it, Spanish genes hit Irish shores about 500 years ago. Maybe that frecked-faced Irish-American kid sitting next to the OP in Calc BC should apply as "Hispanic" as well?</p>
<p>I actually know an Ashkenazic Jew born and raised in South America ( a native Spanish speaker) who taught at a local state U. Apparently the institution labeled him as Hispanic without his ever self-designating, which I find quite interesting given that his ancestral roots were Eastern European. In his case, the Hispanic label lay in his native language and geography rather than in his ethnicity. I would agree with the poster who sees Hispanic as a particularly flexible and inclusive rubric. It seems to me that especially if the OP identifies deeply with Sephardic culture, particularly if there are Spanish or Ladino speakers at home, and distinct cultural traditions are observed and are important to him, he might, in fact, fit the "Hispanic" designation. But I think that he should be open with the university about his background so it does not appear that he is somehow gaming the urm system.</p>
<p>spideygirl,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now that you mention it, Spanish genes hit Irish shores about 500 years ago. Maybe that frecked-faced Irish-American kid sitting next to the OP in Calc BC should apply as "Hispanic" as well?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And, why not?</p>
<p>A system that seeks to play down race by emphasizing is flawed.</p>
<p>Ironically, although you seem to support preferential treatment for certain minorities, your rhetorical question demonstrates the stupidity of giving preferences to group affiliation.</p>
<p>That's what happens when you try to "help" people out by "taking into account" their race / ethnic affiliation. White South American Hispanics who are the descendants of generations of pure Spanish families get to mark the box "Hispanic," even though they may have no Native American blood in them. The wealthy children of Cuban exiles are given preference, even though their parents had the financial means to give them all the amenities that socialists castigate "rich prep school kids" for having.</p>
<p>Whenever you try to engineer a policy like this, you will never get what you wanted.</p>
<p>As I read the OP's suggestion:
1. The poster knows he or she would be deceiving the college.
2. The poster has justified this to him or herself by saying either that:
a. A dictionary definition, plus some stretching, justifies what I'm doing.
b. Affirmative action (in my mind) is bogus, so two wrongs make a right.</p>
<p>This is not only unethical, it is the kind of mentality that could well lead to jail later in life. Read some books on the decision making used by the executives at Enron and Tyco. It is exactly the kind of thinking the OP is relying on.</p>
<p>Mythreesons,</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is not only unethical, it is the kind of mentality that could well lead to jail later in life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In the case of Enron, transactions were treated as revenue when they should have been treated as debt. They violated the business entity concept. No definition of a purchase allows it to be considered as revenue; it's an expense.</p>
<p>In the case of Tyco, they did not disclose questionable loans to executives that were forgiven later on. They violated the adequate disclosure concept. The OP clearly says that he is of Sephardic stock and has immediate family members which are part of a well-known Iberian (read: Hispanic) Sephardic lineage. No definition of adequate disclosure allows loans to executives to be completely off the books.</p>
<p>A lack of transparency coupled with the desire to maximize profits by any means necessary destroyed both Enron and Tyco. This same lack of transparency plagues college admissions every year when students try to play by the rules. An easy way to end this is to simply remove the race box.</p>
<p>Fabrizio, you just proved Mythreesons point:</p>
<p>"A lack of transparency coupled with the desire to maximize profits by any means necessary destroyed both Enron and Tyco"</p>
<p>The OP is pondering a lack of transparency about how his heritage differs from a college's intentions when they use the term "Hispanic". He also has expressed in this situation a desire to maximize admissions ("profits") by any means necessary (in this case by intentional deceit).</p>
<p>Using this type of logic in the future, as Mythreesons warned, could land one in jail. </p>
<p>This isn't about whether or not one agrees with current admissions practices. It is about recognizing reality and playing the game of life in a smart way. If you disagree with the recruitment of Hispanic and African American candidates, the way to deal with it is not to misrepresent yourself on college applications.</p>
<p>If the OP truly and sincerely considers himself to be Hispanic, knowing that there is a likely disparity between his interpretation of the term and that of adcoms should drive him to include a letter of explanation about his philosophy. Presented honestly, with "transparency", makes it no longer an issue.</p>
<p>spideygirl, I guess I disagree with your contention that Hispanic precludes Jew. I believe that a Cuban-American Jew, an Argentinian-American Jew, a Puerto Rican Jew, has as much right to the term Hispanic as does a Cuban-American Catholic, an Argentinian-American Catholic or a Puerto Rican-American Catholic. If a Spanish Catholic is Hispanic, then so is a Spanish Jew. And if a fourth-generation removed Spanish Catholic is Hispanic, then so is a fourth-generation removed Spanish Jew.</p>
<p>Now, whether the OP actually qualifies under these conditions is another issue. But whether he is Jewish or Catholic should not be the deciding factor.</p>
<p>Actually, it isn't my contention at all that "Hispanic precludes Jew". If you read my posts you will see that my focus in all about understanding adcom intentions when asking the question about race, and therefore answering the question with integrity and clarity.</p>