<p>Bill - I’m sure, as you have demonstrated, that you have more knowledge of the situation than I. I’m just stating that submarines always has been an all volunteer force. If we’re going off first hand info here, I’m here to tell you I’ve never met anyone who went subs who didn’t sign up for it. It may have been a “best of what’s available” , but never the only option. Surface warfare is always an available option unless someone isn’t medically qualified to be commissioned as a line officer. At numerous points in the process of service selection and within the training pipeline, people can quit via numerous means without any negative career impact.</p>
<p>No, not always. As we’re seeing. Why is this one tuff to swallow? It is what it is.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig - This one is tough to swallow because frankly, I don’t believe it. I’m not saying that it’s a complete fabrication, but there’s always things that are left out from stories about “a guy I know.” Think of it this way, it’s like writing a research paper without first hand sources. The farther you get from the horse’s mouth, the less likely you are to get the complete quote. As for me, I’ve been there, I’ve done it, I’ve got the amine smelling t-shirt, and this kind of misinformation, whether intentional or otherwise, is the kind that could dissuade people from attending USNA or joining the Navy. I have no vested interest in recruiting people for USNA other than personal pride for my alma matter, nor for the submarine community other than the fact that I wear the gold dolphins. Furthermore, I’m just as willing to discuss the flip side of the coin by discussing why NOT to attend USNA and why NOT to service select submarines. I just want to ensure that I can provide the most accurate information that I can so that others can make informed decisions about their futures.</p>
<p>my first-hand source is just down the hall. I asked again. No fabrication. Research becomes confirming most often (not always) when the same information comes from a variety of sources. So, do you have to believe it? No. That’s your choice. But if you want to provide credible information, then you have to be available to the possibility that your information WAS correct. No mo. Now, what will be tomorrow? You don’t know, nor does anyone on this forum. But I can tell you what happened “today.” Bank it. And keep asking people closer to it than you are now. I’m confident you’ll get additional confirmation about the information being shared. Why? Because it’s the truth, at least of the moment.</p>
<p>The person down the hall from me waiting to go to nuke school and submarines was also selected for the inteview. The 2010 process started when they did not have enough individuals select submarines. The first part was selection of individuals from select majors and GPAs to attend a series of interviews. These inteviews were conducted with senior officers from all the warfare communities and Marine Corps. These interviews were used to discuss the various decision making process the mid went through in choosing their service selection and various other topics. At the end, the message sent was if you were asked to do something for the Navy would you do it? This was followed by more interviews culminating with the final interview with the Four Star. Was he held down and forced to go subs, no. Was he highly encouraged by a group of 5 O-6’s, yes. All in all, he has accepted the decision (he had wanted to fly) and is moving forward with his career. Also, like he said, at least the bonus is not too bad.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig - I agree that my information isnt as current as someone currently in the pipe, but again, was he forced to go or just highly encouraged? </p>
<p>grad/dad - The sub community rarely meets their quota and often has several calls to get other people who wouldn’t normally join to join. That said, had I been asked to service select something for the good of the Navy, I’d say no. That’s just me of course, but the Navy will always ask you to do things for the good of the Navy and will have plenty of time to do so in the future. Getting guilted into changing what you service select because a few O6’s think it’s a good idea directly impacts your entire career. Frankly, if that’s what the Academy is doing, then I completely disagree with their recruiting tactics.</p>
<p>You know, I think this is a good, healthy, edifying discussion w/ no edges. Just working to understand. grad/dad, thanks for the specifics. I’d quibble some w/ the major issue as ours is a “bull” major (w/ top grades in the tech courses, however …perhaps that was a driver?) And asw02 …I’m betting in the end process, you’re right about none being forced to serve in that scenario which might put them and their mates in unnecessary peril as a function of their inability to serve in that capacity. I think one of the key issues here is the question posed to grad/dad’s Mid …“if the Navy asked, would you go?” And the answer to that question may become the ultimate determinant. </p>
<p>May God their Creator bless and protect all the young men and women who chronically, amazingly continue to answer …“YES!” …that we might continue to live in freedom. Thank you! Truly, truly, you are among the very best our nation and world will ever know. Whether in the air …on land or sea …or under the oceans.</p>
<p>Hmmmm . . . the script reads that MIDN Jones, 21, about to graduate from USNA is meeting with Commander Dweedle. Subject? Your career choices.</p>
<p>MIDN: I would prefer not to select subs. [Said confidently]
CMDR: Well [said authoritatively, with a deep baronial voice; think Jame Earl Jones as he gently counsel Jack to not make a mistake], of course, the decision is ENTIRELY yours. Of course, if it were me, I would think long and h ard about the decision you are about to make. After all, you wouldn’t want to NOT considered a team player; would you?
MIDN: Of course not, sir. But, I’ve always wnated to fly.
CMDR: Let me tell you a story son. Back in '80, I ha da classmate who . . . . He didn’t go along . . . . Well [once agains said w/ the appropriate gravitas],let’s just say his career never did get going. He was kinds mouthy from time to time. Wonder what 'ol Zaphod is doing these days? 
MID: But, I really want to fly.
CMDR: The needs of the Navy always take precedence, you know. AND, subs was on your servic seleciton sheet.
MIDN: BUT I had to put down six [is it now ten?] choices, there was nothing else to put down. IT’s my last choice.
CMDR: Nonetheless, its on your list. Shouldn’t have put it down if you didn’t want it.
MIDN: What if I don’t do well on the interview?
CMDr: Would’nt look good in your file; you know, the “permanent file!” Listen, we’re all very busy right now; I know this isn’t yhour first choice but being teh winner that y ou are, I know you’ll do very well on the interview. When You meet w/ CAPT Morton [See Mister Roberts, the movie], I KNOW [authoritative voice] you’ll do good job.
MIDN: Am I “forced” to meet w/ CAPT Morton?
CMDR: Absolutely not! But it is on your schedule and wouldn’t want to miss your scheduled meeting now would we?
MIDN: No sir.
CMDR: Now, when teh CAPT asks if you are volunteering for Sub service; remember, its on your selections sheet . . . .Go out there do one for the team! [said enthusiastically, witha fist pump.] Any questons?
MDIN: No sir.
CMDR. That’s what I thought; a real team player.</p>
<p>MIDN to buddy: what just happened?</p>
<p>Meeting w/ ADM. [Who has approriately salt and pepper hair coloring and authoritative stance that he has practiced many times at the war college.]</p>
<p>ADM: welcom, MIDN, glad to see you want to be part of the team . . . tell me about y ourself.
MIDN: . . . . . .but, I have some doubts sir about whether subs are for me.
CAPT: Don’t we all. [laughing heartily.] Let me tell you a story about when I got married . . . . I want’ to sure about that either. Now look at me, thirty years later and I’m in command of the sub fleet. It’s been a good life. [Especially since I get away from that battlship of a wife for six months at a time; so, it’s like I"ve only been married for 15 years instead of thirty.]
MID: . . . .well [said with a downtrailing voice; resigned to his future], I certainly want to do what’s right for the team.
ADM: That’s the spirit! That’s what I want to hear. Welcom aboard</p>
<p>MIDN to buddy: It’s only five years . . . and I’ll have a great job in the nuclear industry after I get out; it’s not that bad.</p>
<p>5 years later.
LT to buddy: I cannot believe it has been 5 years. It has been a pretty exciting time. I decided to do it some more. And, the bonus is not too bad.</p>
<p>6 years later.<br>
Commander James Earl Jones has made 2 star status, has been serving as Supe at the Academy, is getting canned for having too many parties for his Hollywood chums, and has sold both book and movie rights in which he will star as himself and make $23 million for an extended cameo experience. And he’s being replaced @ USNA by the star of the French Connection and commanded the USS Alabama, and has played so many Navy roles that he’s received an honorary flag commission. And the Navy Times and bloggers are all aghast, but the USNA Foundation sees it all as a boon to illicit fund-raising. :eek: 
</p>
<p>P.S. Bill, I gotta ask? When you noted the Admiral being in charge of the “fleet” …were you referring to boats or his wife? And her name isn’t per chance Lydia, is it? Remember Groucho’s musical masterpiece???</p>
<p>Lydia, oh Lydia. Have you met Lydia? Lydia the ta…tooed lady.
She’s got eyes that men adore so…and her torso, even more so!
Lydia, oh Lydia. Yes, have you met Lydia. Lydia the queen of ta…tooo!</p>
<p>She once had an admiral crawl at her feet.
Because of a submarine on her left cheek.
But now the ol’ boy’s in command of the fleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
You can learn ALOT from Lydia.</p>
<p>ROTFLMAO!!! Stoppppp!!!
I am laughing so much I have to pee… again!!!</p>
<p>Bill, you are really TOO funny!!! You definately have that sea lawyer down pat! WHat a great way to end a Friday!!!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>is THAT the smell my mid told me about??? He came home from Protramid [back then] and told me there was a smell on the subs that was still in his nose!</p>
<p>“Smell these” he told me, pointing to his [now back in NY from CA sub ride] sea bag.
“I don’t smell anything” says I.
“You don’t smell that?”
“Smell what???”
“THIS!!!” [as he pushes my nose further down in his sea bag]</p>
<p>“Sorry, I don’t smell anything except your funky dirty clothes!”, says I. :eek:
“Well can you wash them then so that I don’t have to smell that smell anymore?”
“NOPE!” , says I. “You are home now and this is a do-it-yourself establishment!”
“I can’t WAIT to get back to school!” [mumble mumble] :mad:</p>
<p>:) </p>
<p>so what IS that smell? what is amine??? 
</p>
<p>They’re crazy
Then why don’t you ground them?
Why don’t they ask me to groun them?
Because they’re crazy, that’s why.
Of course they’re crazy Doc Daneeka replied . . . I just told you they’re crazy didn’t I? And you can’t let crazy people decide whether your’e crazy or not . . . can you?
Is Orr crazy?
He sure is, Daneeka replied.
can you ground him?
Sure can. But first he has to ask me to. THat’s part of the rule.
Then why doesn’t he ask you to?
Because he’s crazy. He has to be crazy to keep flying combat missions after all the close calls he’s had. Sure, I cna ground Orr. BUt, first he has to ask me to.
That’s all he has to do?
That’s all. Let him ask me.</p>
<p>THEN you can ground him?
No. THEN I can’t ground him.
You meant there’s a catch?
Sure, there’s a catch. Catch-22. Anyone who WANTS to get out of combat isn’t really crazy.</p>
<p>That’s some catch, that catch-22. . . . .</p>
<p>Re-reading teh great book Catch-22. Heller was a brilliant writer.</p>
<p>90+ percent of m ids get their first or SECOND choice of assignments. [Remember that “second” part] That means 40 - 50 mids don’t get either one. Pretty decent odds all in all. Nobody is FORCED to go subs.<br>
In fact, you could probably avoid subs, if you have the guts [at age 22] to stand up to men about 20 years your senior who are telling you that such a decision might be determental to the career you haven’t even started. [Even if that is not a particularly true statement.] Just be forwarned.</p>
<p>Bill - you make an outstanding point in your last sentence there. One of the problems with USNA is that it doesnt prepare Mids for the reality of life. It’s very focused on training mids to lead mids. It’s not very focused on the sheer basics like how to live independently as an adult, how to manage your finances, what to do when SN Numnuts cant manage his finances, etc. When I was there, everything you needed to “pay” for was automatically taken out of your paycheck and you got a lump sum or a bill at the end when you graduated. There was no balancing a checkbook or paying off credit cards like in the real world, so how are these young officers supposed to learn how to do it? The most important thing that isnt even remotely mentioned at USNA, like you mentioned, is career ownership. I didnt actually own my career and have things I wanted to accomplish until I put on LT. My focus as an Ens/JG was to get my work done, get through the day, and get off the ship to a shore tour. I fortunately was stationed at the Pentagon where I learned that you can say no to anyone regardless of rank when it comes to career issues. Long story short, I ended up lateral transferring out of subs after numerous failed attempts through a lot of hard work, networking, and by playing a little hardball. The Navy will always be able to claim its pound of flesh, but at the end of the day, if you give everything and dont get anything in return, you’ll end up being an O5 getting passed over and wondering where things went wrong.</p>
<p>Navyasw: the unfortunate failure of the former mids and retired Navy personnel who post on these threads is to note share the perspective that you do above. [Instead, it seems, they frequently only want to demonstrate how much more knowledgeable they are than anybody else about everything Navy.]</p>
<p>Visit the AF thread sometime; you will see a number of threads by Bullet and BulletandPima [I think I have that right]. 20+ year service member [maybe retired now] and his wife who consistently offer advice on career-related issues. They offer perspective on choosing bases and, recently, how the RIF might affect new graduates. They do so in an encouraging way that seems to spring forth from a genuine desire to help. [As compared to a desire to merely demonstrate their superior knowledge on everything and always, ALWAYS, have the last word.]</p>
<p>You are absolutely correct: “owning [your] career” is an important lesson. These young people are making decisions that will affect the rest of their career. Senior officers ar eno different than other career-oriented individuals, they are going to do what is best [or needed] to further their own careers. [Yes, I get “ship, shipmate, self” but when your marching orders are to meet selection goals, well, you are going to meet seleciton goals, the wishes of a new mid be darned.] So, real life issues come up and, you are right, these young people are not prepared in the way that a “normal” college graduate is sort of prepared.</p>
<p>I don’t know how long you were in, but PLEASE take a different road [since I see that you are a relatively new participant] than some of your colleagues and give these young people some true advice on how to navigate the road [waters?] ahead. Give them some advice. You say you “learned you can say no to anyone regardelss of rank when it comes to career issues.” What doe sthi smean. Share the expeirence. Do you think a mid could, reasonably, turn down the interview? Good to hear from you.</p>
<p>asw, I used to think that Bancroft Hall was the largest rumor mill in the world. Now, I am coming to believe that it is probably the parents of those living in Mother B.</p>
<p>Here is my “first-hand” account. In the fall of 2007, my cousin calls me in a panic that his son was being forced to go subs. This was a kid who lived on aviation. Walls covered with F-14 pictures. Models hanging from the ceiling. Hundreds of hours of computer flight simulator. The next time I saw him I mentioned that I thought subs was an all-volunteer force. Receiving a blank look, I mentioned that his dad had called me. After a pregnant pause, he told me that he originally really wanted to fly and that his dad thought he still wanted to fly but that , after 2nd class summer, he really wasn’t sure if he would like flying that much, and that, since he was getting married right after graduation, the bonus was a big factor. He is now a submariner and loves it.</p>
<p>My other “first-hand” experiences is that last fall I was in a position to interact informally over an extended period with a group of eight or so 1st class who had selected subs. Casually, individually, I asked them about the rumor that mids were being drafted into subs. To a person, they told me that there was absolutely no truth in it. Of course, it could be the polar opposite of my above example in that no one wants to be a part of a group that no one wants (a corollary of WC Fields statement). Or it could be the opposite, the need to feel wanted. Or a host of other reasons, one of which has got to be that the nuclear power training, combined with only a five year total commitment, for those who do not intend to make the Navy a career, has got to be a huge draw. There is of course the surface nuclear option but, for junior SWOs, carriers suck (and are not good career paths).</p>
<p>So, yes, it could be a matter of semantics. I am sure that a 1st class midshipman and a Captain will define a casual informal conversation between the two of them quite differently. I am sure the midshipmen themselves know that submarines is an “all-volunteer” force as do those who are asking them to “volunteer” and also those who will be providing evaluation inputs for the short time until graduation. My sole purpose was to point out to candidates and parents and others on the periphery that it was in fact a “volunteer” force.</p>
<p>
asw, just a bit of advice here. A hazard of making detailed advice such as the Air Force couple on the other forum is that there are those on this forum who might want to disagree with you even though they are unable to support their opinions with anything other than numerous lengthy posts about how much idle wasted time one must have on their hands in order to make such a detailed response. Unable to provide constructive dialogue, they simply attempt to “police” the posters. See Bill’s Catch 22 analogy.</p>
<p>See ASW how this works now?</p>
<p>Orig Post: My first hand knowledge is this.</p>
<p>S72. Well [said with fading authority], MY first hand knowledge is THIS. AND, JUST TO BE CLEAR, MY RUMORS are more well-founded than your rumors.</p>
<p>Orig Post: Look to how some on the AF threads have been helpful.</p>
<p>Mombee: [Oh, sorry, meant S72] BUT, instead of offering helpful advice relevant to NA applicants or recent graduates, I will simply [because I HAVE TO] offer additional commentary about how the original post shouldn’t be heeded or followed because my opinion trumps all and you should know that in all matters Navy, I [uh, what was I saying to begin with?]</p>
<p>At least Luigi attaches news reports with most of his posts. L’s fault is that he let his editorializing get to be more important than the story he was trying to publicize.</p>
<p>Mombee’s fault [see History of Mombee, the movie] is that he must [as in MUST] have the last word regardless of what was said to begin with and he must [as in MUST] point out that the original post was defective. </p>
<p>These latest threads are a good example: Mombee’s experience may be true. The truthfulness of Mombee’s experience has no bearing [as in NONE] on the truthfulness of the other experiences posted herein. But he can’t leave it at that. NO, as is typical, Mombee insists on casting a “rumor” shadow on everybody else’s posts as if his rumors [first hand experiences] were more true than the original posts.</p>
<p>See how much fun this is?</p>
<p>WP?</p>
<p>While I cannot speak for others, one reason I hesitate to talk about life in the real Navy (as I know it) is that I am invariably told by someone how misinformed I am. Until the last few years, I had no knowledge of USNA or its ways, but I am well versed in the reality of being a military spouse and parent of an active duty Marine. </p>
<p>This experience seems to carry little weight with those obsessed with life within the confines of the Yard’s walls. The reality is: Naval Academy life has nothing to do with life in the fleet. Success at the academy is not a clear indicator of success in the military; there appears (from my perspective) to be little correlation between the two.</p>
<p>So, if you are dismayed by the dearth of posts by those with real-life experience in the military, please think long and hard before you challenge their contributions.</p>
<p>OK, I am off my soapbox. Have a great Navy day!</p>
<p>Bill- My background is as follows - USNA grad, submarine officer until 2008 (fast attack), now an Engineering Duty Officer. My experiences lateral transferring out of the sub community were very eye opening. My year group was undermanned, so I had to request to lateral transfer three times before I was finally successful. The biggest thing I’d recommend to anyone is have a plan and stick to it. During the transfer process, I talked to numerous senior officers in numerous communities who talked to me regarding my career prospects. I told all of them that if I didnt get out of the submarine community, I was getting out of the Navy. Some of them tried to talk me into staying, but I told them respectfully that I’d rather get out of the Navy than do a department head tour. I’m sure some many of them didnt like it, but as long as you present your case respectfully and logically, nobody will question your career motives. </p>
<p>A friend of mine, another submariner who I served with for six years wanted to get out of the Navy, but was looking to explore his options. He wanted to get out because he and his wife were both in the Navy and cohabitation was nearly impossible. He met with an admiral who questioned whether he really saw himself married to his wife in X number of years and said he shouldn’t use that as a reason to get out. My friend replied that he did in fact see himself married to his wife in X number of years and that he just confirmed his reasoning for wanting to get out.</p>
<p>No matter what rank someone is, they still wake up in the morning and put their pants on one leg at a time just like anyone else. Just because someone has stars on their collar doesn’t mean that they walk on water. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with having a rational, respectful, and logical discussion with senior officers.</p>
<p>Why di dyou want to transfer out of subs?</p>