<p>The degree of preparation really depends on the quality of the course...and, of course, the aptitude of the child. My D learned the hard way after NOT doing any prep for her AP Euro Hist exam last year, that the teacher had NOT covered many of the concepts (for whatever reason...was hospitalized for a week, they had new weird scheduling, etc. etc.) and was very disappointed with a 3. That year she got a 5 on the French exam with no prep...but the teacher announced the first week of class that her class was going to be HARD with grammar, grammar, grammar just to get them ready for the exam. She tailored her prep for the 3 exams she took this May after comparing the tables of contents in the prep books to what was covered in the classes she took. And certainly, there are teachers in "regular" classes who cover the same material in a rigorous way and these kids can certainly take the exam on their own and score well. Think about it, the AP exam is the equivalent of a final exam in the corresponding course you took in college. Did you study for some of these finals?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Think about it, the AP exam is the equivalent of a final exam in the corresponding course you took in college. Did you study for some of these finals?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you really sure that they are equal?</p>
<p>One of the problems with AP euro in our school district is that students do not study European history in any depth at all until they take the AP class in eleventh grade. I seemed that they were studying 1,000 years worth of history in just a couple of weeks and most of it was material that they had never seen before. And even though my son's teacher is thought to be a good teacher, he had a very dificult time getting all the material covered in time for the national test deadline. It doesn't seem fair that students in schools that start in September (Tuesday after labor day) are given the same tests as to students whose schools start in early August. And then after the national AP test, there was a final exam AND a final project...</p>
<p>At a curriculum meeting at my D's prep school when she was an 8th grader, the teachers noted that they were dismayed at "having" to offer AP classes because they felt parents insisted on pushing the kids too hard to get in to "good" colleges. At that meeting, they declined to add any further AP classes to the curriculum (currently there are about 15, but due to scheduling conflicts, most kids take about 5 over their high school career, my daughter will have 10). So I truly believe that, although many of these classes have an AP designation, the teachers purposefully do not gear the curriculum to the test. Indeed, only two or three require the students who take the class to take the test. For all else, the exams are elective. Thus, if the student wants to do well on the exam, he/she must make sure for themselves that the necessary material was covered.</p>
<p>And, yes, the original purpose of AP classes/curriculum was to offer college level curriculum FOR CREDIT in the high school. Although many colleges do not offer credit for these classes now, that was the intent. So these exams ARE supposed to reflect a final exam in a similar class at a college. There were very few exams in college that I didn't study for. (Perhaps Music Theory for Non-Majors).</p>
<p>Honestly, I don't get it. It would seem to me that the reason to offer an AP course is to enable a student to get AP credit. To get AP credit, you have to take the exam. Why a student should be given an "A" or a "B" for a year-long class where s/he didn't perform well on or doesn't even take the final (and the very reason that the class exists) is beyond me. If I were an admissions officer and saw that disconnect, I would instantly discount the high school's "intellectual rigor".</p>
<p>quiltguru:</p>
<p>altho H is typically the hardest for awarding ap credit to matriculating students, I read somewhere that the Dean of Admissions said he wants to see the scores if a student took any ap tests. Thus, if the transcript shows xx ap's end of Jr year, and only 2 official scores are submitted by CB, an adcom HAS to wonder negatively....a) did student even take test (if not, why not)?; 2) did they do so poorly on the test that they suppressed scores (again, not a positive thought). </p>
<p>As mini notes, adcoms will see the HS report that shows: 1) few kids taking ap tests even though many ap's are offered; 2) poor scores for students who take the test. Either would raise a red flag about rigor of the course. </p>
<p>Your school would be better off not offering ap's, IMO.</p>
<p>bluebayou, although the school does not REQUIRE the students to take the AP exams, 95% of them do! The kids are smarter than their teachers sometimes.</p>
<p>sorry, qg. I read into your post that since only 2-3 require the test, test participation was low in the other classes...my mistake</p>
<p>
[quote]
So these exams ARE supposed to reflect a final exam in a similar class at a college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How? I don't have time to think about each individual college course that I have had right now, but I'd say that the greater majority that I have taken have not had final exams that tested on material over learned over the whole semester; they were just like regular tests. The only classes coming to mind right now that had final exams conisting of material learned over the whole semester were math courses.</p>
<p>Mini, what part about my earlier post didn't you get? Sometimes the choice for a kid is essentially between AP Engish or what the kid would view as remedial English. Same with any other course. There are kids who are bored to tears with the non-AP curriculum at their school. There are kids who simply are trying to fill their schedule, and the only decent or interesting choice happens to be the AP class. In some schools, the only decent teachers are teaching the AP classes -- so word gets around and the kids select the teacher.</p>
<p>My son's high school subsidized the AP test - my daughter's doesn't. If a kid ends up the year uncertain about the ability to perform well on the AP test, why waste $80? This is especially true for seniors - by the time of the AP exam, they may already know that they are going to a college that won't give them AP credit, or will give credit only for a "5" in any case. Many colleges limit the total amount of available AP credit - so again, its silly to spend money for a test that won't help in terms of getting credit. </p>
<p>This doesn't mean the kids are skating by without taking the final exam. Every AP class my kids ever took had an in-class final - the AP exam wasn't a substitute. </p>
<p>If every school was filled with wonderful teachers, challenging courses, and a non-AP alternative to every AP class offered ... then your feelings would make sense. But that's not the way it works in public school. If my daughter wants to study European history in high school, she has one choice only: AP Euro. The course isn't offered in any other context. She doesn't have to take the test just because she took the course.</p>
<p>Well, either it's an AP course, or it isn't. If the kids don't perform on the AP exams, or are simply not taking them, they are devaluing it - not just for themselves - but for everyone at the school. </p>
<p>Yes the kids are skaing by without taking the final exam. The final exam for an AP course is an AP exam - and every adcom knows it.</p>
<p>Mini, I think your attitude devalues the course. Apparently you think that the idea of a class is to take a test to get x result (impress ad com, earn credit at a college). I look at the value of the course as being what the kid can learn. If the AP class happens to be in a subject that is not required and my kids aren't interested in exploring, or the teacher has a bad rep in terms of teaching ability, or there is a non-AP alternative that has a better teacher or more interesting curriculum - then I would encourage my kids to skip the AP course. That's why my daughter took Honors English rather than AP this year -- the AP course was focused on mechanics of writing, the Honors class on lit -- she already writes well, so it was a no brainer to figure out which course would give her a better learning opportunity. She also took the AP exam for the course she didn't take (as mentioned above) -- that one was also easy to figure. Two hours with a prep book. Why waste time with a class she didn't need? </p>
<p>I really find it somewhat disturbing that the attention is on the test rather than the content of the course. It kind of gives me insight into why some kids need to study so hard for the test: kids who are motivated by strong interest in the subject matter tend to retain most of the information the first time around. </p>
<p>And the adcoms have absolutely no way of knowing whether the kid has taken the AP test or not. So what "every ad com knows" is nothing - there isn't even a place on the common app form asking for the scores.</p>
<p>Hey - I'm not a great fan of the courses to begin with! LOL! To my way of thinking, colleges that accept them for credit (as opposed to use in placement) are really devaluing themselves - though of course I know of colleges where the actual courses are not much better (and sometimes worse) than those taught in high schools.</p>
<p>I like AP courses. Some beginning college courses aren't significantly more difficult than good high school courses. Brighter high school students can easily manage beginning college courses. Why bore them with an easy high school course, then bore them again with a beginning college course, much of which is a repeat of their high school course? </p>
<p>However, I do think that the grades for AP exams ought to more closely parallel standard grades. A student should score at least 90% to earn a 5, 80% for a 4, etc.</p>
<p>Mini--I think your attitude devalues poor districts. The level of teaching at most of the AP courses at our hs does not warrant the students taking the test. Not to mention that many students can't afford the fees and our school system can't afford to subsidize them. </p>
<p>You may not believe they should be called AP--fine, believe what you want. But to say that ad coms should view those students suspiciously is such an elitest position that it's hard to believe it's coming from you.</p>
<p>With some exceptions, AP classes are all about content. And I'm going to say a shocking thing here: I don't believe that students need to show up at difficult, selective colleges with a certain level of content; I think it's way more important that they bring minds which can think critically, and well.</p>
<p>Both my kids started at schools where kids knew way more stuff than they did. My D graduated in the top ten percent of her school; my S is carrying a 3.6 average after one year at his. D skipped a couple AP tests, S only took half of the ones he could. It doesn't seem to have hurt them any--why does that bother you?</p>
<p>I don't get it. Why would you cancel the AP score? You have nothing to lose by taking it, the only thing that would happen is if the score is too low the student would just not be passed out of certain classes.Definitely let it go, there is no disadvantage, right?</p>
<p>In my son's HS, most kids take the AP course to places out of freshman courses at state colleges and mid-range LAC's. This lets them help themselves and their families financially, and also lets them bypass overcrowded frosh courses. These are serious students - although for a variety of reasons they don't aim at the most selective colleges. </p>
<p>In his school, at least, the phenomenon is that the AP/honors track course contain higher proportion of serious students, which means that the classroom experience in these courses is pleasanter for them: kids are there to learn.</p>
<p>Mini:
[quote]
Well, either it's an AP course, or it isn't. If the kids don't perform on the AP exams, or are simply not taking them, they are devaluing it - not just for themselves - but for everyone at the school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mini, you are missing an important point mentioned by the original poster.</p>
<p>Her daughter was NOT in an AP course, she was in an IB course. </p>
<p>IB is considered by many to be at least as challenging as AP, if not moreso, but it is not specifically geared to preparing for the AP exam. Instead, it's geared to the IB syllabus.</p>
<p>Because of the wider "name recognition" of AP, many IB students opt to take the corresponding AP exams IN ADDITION TO the IB exams which are required. </p>
<p>This is kind of a "belt-and-suspenders" approach for students, especially underclassmen, who can't know in advance where they will be going to college, and who don't know if their IB scores will be recognized.</p>
<p>I can certainly understand why an IB student might choose to take an AP exam without putting much additinoal effort into studying specifically for the AP. The burden of preparing for the IB exams is quite substantial, as I understand it, without assuming the additional burden of preparing for the minutiae of an AP exam as well. </p>
<p>Many IB students do quite well on AP exams and there is little downside risk for an IB student to take AP exams as well. (Colleges will not be EXPECTING to see AP scores for an IB student, and such scores need to be reported only if they are good.) </p>
<p>The scoring scale for AP is VERY generous--students who think they did poorly are often quite surprised by their scores. A raw score of 70% (or even less in some disciplines) can translate into a top score of 5 on AP.</p>
<p>Now, as to the more common case which mini was addressing--of students enrolled in "AP courses" devaluing the course by not taking the AP exam.</p>
<p>Many students enrolled in AP courses who are forced to take the AP exam because of school policy are totally wasting their time and somebody's money (typically their parents' money or the state's money in cases where the state pays fees and requires students to take the tests.) </p>
<p>This quote from the blog of an AP government reader reveals that many such students don't even bother to make a serious attempt to address the exam questions:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The best exams, the ones that lighten our day, are those of the students who just don't care. Some students get to take the exams for free. Many of these haven't the faintest about the topic at hand. A subset of these spend their 100 minute period writing about their lives. Writing for people you'll never meet seems to be liberating. I've read bitter tirades directed against the entire male gender. I've read multiple loss-of-virginity accounts. I've read about drug use, crushes, future plans, baseball, football, cats, parents and whatever else you can imagine seventeen year olds caring about.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>source: <a href="http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2005/06/fort-collins-blogging.html%5B/url%5D">http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2005/06/fort-collins-blogging.html</a></p>
<p>I would say that these students, who did "take" the AP exam (in the sense that they sat in the exam room and wrote "something" on their exam booklets and turned them in) were devaluing the AP experience far more than the original poster's daughter.</p>
<p>I have a lot more respect for the daughter of the original poster, who VOLUNTARILY CHOSE to take on the additional challenge of writing the AP exam, despite having no specific preparation for that test and no time to dedicate to practice tests or the specifics of the AP syllabus which might differ from the IB syllabus. I assume she at least tried her best to address the questions on the test, unlike the students cited above.</p>
<p>As for courses (unlike the one taken by the OP's daughter) which ARE labeled AP, I think there are alternatives to the students being required to pay $80 to the College Board to take the exam at the end of the course, especially if they are seniors who realize their chosen college will not give credit for their AP. </p>
<p>Many teachers give their students "mock AP exams," old released AP exams under test-like conditions to prepare them for the actual AP exams. Good teachers are much stricter in grading these exams than the actual AP readers (on the theory of "overtraining" students, so the exam itself--under greater pressure--will seem less taxing.) </p>
<p>Some districts require students to take either the official AP exam in May or an additional unofficial mock exam on the AP date. If the student opts for the mock AP exam instead of the official one, it will be graded by the school and can either raise OR lower the student's course grade. If the stduent opts for the official AP exam, the score won't arrive until July, so the score won't affect the student's grade (though a few schools do have a controversial policy of retroactively raising grades of students who score high on the exam.) </p>
<p>In one district which offers this choice, 90% of the students opt to take the official AP exam! Presumably they know that the mock AP exam alternative is not going to be a cakewalk!</p>
<p>It seems to me that a course taught by a rigorous teacher who includes grades from rigorously graded "mock AP exams" will find that students who choose not to take the AP exam are NOT devaluing the course!</p>
<p>mini:
[quote]
Why a student should be given an "A" or a "B" for a year-long class where s/he didn't perform well on or doesn't even take the final (and the very reason that the class exists) is beyond me. If I were an admissions officer and saw that disconnect, I would instantly discount the high school's "intellectual rigor".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>mini, I'm surprised that you would expect an admissions officer to conclude lack of rigor if the AP score doesn't jibe well with a particular student's grade.</p>
<p>There are students who may well benefit from the rigor of being in an AP class, with a syllabus based on the AP exam, who do not do well on a single-high-stakes-high-pressure exam, given on a particular day in May. </p>
<p>Some students may learn a great deal from doing the readings on an AP syllabus, may write wonderful lengthy term papers, and may make terrific thoughtful contributions to class discussions, but simply not do very well on a 3 hour exam under time pressure under less than ideal conditions for demonstrating subject knowledge.</p>
<p>There are many factors which could cause a student to do poorly on an AP exam (and there are no easy retake opportunities--unlike the SAT II subject tests, one has to wait a whole year to retake an AP exam.) Many schools don't have airconditionining and may be hot and sweaty in May. AP schedules may result in students having to take a large number of AP exam in a very few days. The student may be ill or may have a number of conflicting time commitments (e.g., final exams in dual-enrolled college courses the same week as AP exams.) The foreign language (listening) AP exams are notoriously subject to problems--if a PA system announcement comes over the speaker system while the proctor is playing a listening comprehension segment, the proctor is not allowed to replay the segment for the students. Calculator batteries fail during calculus or physics tests. Noisy construction projects may go on near the testing room. Students make bubbling errors that throw off the rest of the test, panic, start erasing, etc. Some students simply panic at the sight of columns of bubbles on a test. A stressed student misreads an essay prompt and writes an essay which does not conform to the sacred "rubric." AP calculus free response answers are scored "wrong" if they are not correct to at least 3 decimal places (and intermediate rounding errors are easy to make under time pressure.)</p>
<p>The subjective nature of scoring AP essay exams also raises a number of questions, especially in disciplines like English, history, and government. The issues may be similar to those that have already been raised in discussions of the SAT writing essay scoring.</p>
<p>For all of these reasons, if I were an admissions officer, I would be reluctant to conclude too much from a poor AP exam score that did not jibe with the course grade.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>For all of these reasons, if I were an admissions officer, I would be reluctant to conclude too much from a poor AP exam score that did not jibe with the course grade.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>We never know what the admit people really think, but if I think that they may ignore any single, isolated standardized test score that is notably poorer than the others, while raising an eyebrow at a student taking 3-4 AP exams and not doing well on any of them. The isolated bad score seems to clearly be related to the "whatever" factor, particularly if class grades are good, and a pattern of low scores plus high class grades has got to raise an eyebrow. But I think they are able to put even that situation in context - poor school vs wealthier suburb for instance.</p>