should fafsa efc be almost 1/3 of my parents' income?

Paying for College
181

<p>
[quote]
When I hear someone who attended schools that are better supported than what many have available in their area,
whose family makes about 3 times the national average,
who has learned to have high expectations of what their opportunities are, compared to many who have learned to expect little so that they arent' disappointed,
when this person then complains that life isn't fair!, when they realize it will not be as easy to continue on the path that they think they deserve as they thought- I think - nope- life certainly isn't fair is it?

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<p>I'm not sure what your point is, but I have a question: Have you ever complained about anything ever to anyone? Because as someone who lives in the United States, you are probably about 10 times better off than the world average.</p>

<p>Also, you never answered my earlier question. I really would like an answer:</p>

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Do you believe that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?

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</p>

182

<p>Sure, go ahead and complain, but don't expect everyone to have sympathy for your complaint.</p>

<p>lskinner, your story I find interesting. Stanford, law school, high paying law firm. You have available to you the background and tools to make the money to send your kids anywhere. Further, you seem to prefer the ambiance of state Us with long lines.</p>

<p>In my book, you should be happy as a clam and have few complaints. You have CHOICE! Most don't. So send your kids to state schools and avoid the overcharging jerks!!</p>

<p>When you describe your horror at the fireworks at Stanford you describe a person who only wants to see the negative. Stanford has the money to do such things and most students appreciate that. If you didn't, why weren't you across the bridge at Cal waiting on line?</p>

<p>Each to his own skinner. You may be happier in a socialist country as Bobby suggested. But life is too short to get worked up over fireworks.</p>

183

<p>*Have you ever complained about anything ever to anyone? *</p>

<p>Of course just ask my H! :D
But I differentiate my complaining- because I ask if it is ok for me to just vent- I don't expect anyone to "fix" my problems, unless they have power and motivation to do so.</p>

<p>I try and keep my efforts and energy to things where I can see a difference, and I don't expect overnight changes- I don't expect changes where privileged people like me will see a benefit if it negatively will affect those of lesser circumstances & I don't expect everything to be equally balanced.
What one person views as * unfair* another views as an attempt to actually bring * more* equity into the system.</p>

<p>I haven't heard a good case for expecting schools to reduce services and programs in order to reduce costs. Students from less privileged backgrounds* need* those services and more, oftentimes to succeed.</p>

<p>Full Pay students are also attracted by those services and programs and may even donate funds apart from their tuition costs for the continuation and expansion of those programs.</p>

<p>for example- Ds college has top notch science lab facilities, including a nuclear reactor staffed by undergrads. Coaching and tutoring for ADD and class support is available at no extra charge. Dorms are often single room or divided doubles( in fact virtually all) and the library and computer center are very well supported.</p>

<p>Of course these things come at a price- when every single staff person on campus is given a stipend to spend on connecting with students, from the housekeeping and security staff to the profs and admission officers, that adds up. When the cafeteria offers fresh often organic high quality ( * well I thought they were pretty good*) meals, that is more expensive than a school that considers a salad bar to be their veggie option and supplies quantity rather than quality.</p>

<p>When a school controls the size of student body, to less than 1,500 students, despite rising costs, that is more expensive than a school that simply increases class size.</p>

<p>Sure schools could pare back to the minimum & some in an effort to attract students who are very mindful of costs, have.</p>

<p>No school charges 100% of what it costs to educate a student- everyone is being subsidized, I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.</p>

<p>Schools that pledge to meet 100% of need, and dont offer merit, I assume are the schools that those who don't qualify for need are complaining about.
These schools are often viewed as more "prestigous" by some, and as the logical place for their undergrad career.
These schools are also more competitive and challenging for admittance. FOr students who do have need, their need will be met, but they will be competing with students who have had the resources of backgrounds that don't "need" any financial aid.</p>

<p>I understand the viewpoint of some- who don't qualify for need based aid, that the schools should simply lower the price for all, (which may actually raise it for some), as it is too costly to use some ( much) of the schools resources to provide aid for needy students.</p>

<p>Many, many needy students, if they attend college at all, attend either two year colleges in their area, or instate 4 year schools. Very, few, attend college either on athletic scholarhips or attend the small number of schools that don't offer merit awards, but do have need based aid packages.</p>

<p>As schools are often "need aware", the student who is admitted to a full need school, could be considered to be even more qualified than someone who is full pay. There are so many kids out there with need, especially when you are talking about schools that cost the equivalent of the average national salary, that the schools can have their pick of the students who apply.</p>

<p>Students with a lot of need- even if they are especially gifted, may not even be able to come up with the EFC- because it isn't meant to come solely from current income, but from savings, loans and workstudy. If your family relies on your income to make ends meet, they aren't going to have the ability to assume education loans, and even if the student still is able to go to college, a cheaper school, that may offer merit and require fewer loans, is probably where the student will attend.</p>

<p>Making the price of the school- equal for all, will not help that student, because they can't come up with the EFC, let alone the price of higher tuition.
Cutting expenses so low, and increasing class size so high, that even the poorest student can afford it, likely will take away the very supports that they will need to finish college.</p>

<p>Hardly * fair* if our interest is making a college education more accessible to a wider segment of our society.</p>

184

<p>I didn't mean to say "workstudy" Workstudy funds of course are one way that need is met- however students are also usually expected to contribute $3,000+ from summer earnings,to EFC.</p>

<p>My daughters aid package for example- consisted of subsidized loans- workstudy and grants- she contributed $3,000 each year to the EFC from her summer job, and her workstudy job covered her personal expenses and books. We still had to take out loans to cover her EFC, something "less privileged" families couldn't consider and from reading the boards, I have the impression that some much more affluent families, won't consider taking out loans to pay EFC, even though they have greater resources to pay back the loans.
Some students from those families, don't even want subsidized loans "because they are planning on graduate school", but when national resources aren't sufficent to provide equity in K-12 education, which could open up access to higher ed- I don't agree with the rationale that just because a student is expecting to incur expenses for law school or medical school, that they shouldn't be expected to take on the same amount of loans as those who are just trying to finish college.</p>

185

<p>
[quote]
In my book, you should be happy as a clam and have few complaints. You have CHOICE!

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<p>Even if I were a millionare (which I'm not), I still wouldn't like the idea of being ripped off. And I certainly don't like the idea of folks like passionflower getting ripped off.</p>

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When you describe your horror at the fireworks at Stanford you describe a person who only wants to see the negative. Stanford has the money to do such things and most students appreciate that.

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<p>But the same money could be used to reduce tuition. Cut enough costs, and eventually tuition can be a lot more reasonable.</p>

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If you didn't, why weren't you across the bridge at Cal waiting on line?

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<p>Unfortunately, I was not a California resident and therefore ineligible for in-state tuition at Cal. I do sometimes think I should have gone to UMass, which would have cost perhaps $4-5k a year for tuition, room & board.</p>

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So send your kids to state schools and avoid the overcharging jerks!!

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<p>Perhaps I will, but it doesn't change the fact that the overcharging jerks are still overcharging people.</p>

<p>Perhaps they have a legal right to overcharge people, but I have the right to criticize them for doing so.</p>

186

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I don't expect anyone to "fix" my problems, unless they have power and motivation to do so

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<p>It's essentially tautological that nobody will "fix" your problems unless they have the power and motivation to do so. I certainly feel that way. So I guess that by your standard, my complaints are ok, hey?</p>

<p>And by the way, it appears that you still have not answered my earlier question:</p>

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Do you believe that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?

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</p>

187

<p>Another great small public is St. Mary's of Maryland. Somewhere on CC recently was a link to a list of colleges with late application deadlines that you can still apply to.</p>

<p>Also consider the Canadian universities that are much cheaper than many of the US universities and provide excellent educations. Their deadlines are also late.</p>

<p>There are many great schools that don't cost 40k. There are also other options if your heart is set on an expensive school and you don't have the funds to pay for it. Consider community college and living at home for 2 years, and then transferring. Or working full time for a couple of years, etc.</p>

<p>Although it may seem like everybody going to college is able to choose their school with no financial constraints, the reality is that the majority of students are impacted by financial considerations of some sort or another.</p>

188

<p>Friendshiplady, I also discussed some options with the OP. Unfortunately, the OP is currently a senior so the OP feels that it is too late at this point of the process. It is too bad that many GCs really don't explain much about the financial process and packaging. Many focus purely on score gpa, interests, and ECs when advising about college. Money is an uncomfortable and personal topic, but IMO, ignoring this big elephant in the middle of the room is also doing a diservice to the student.</p>

189

<p>Skinner, have you noticed that your desires differ from most peoples where colleges are concerned? The OP does not wsnt to avoid being ripped off by going to a no frills college with long lines. In fact, her complaint is that she may have to go to one.</p>

<p>It just seems logical for you to be happy that what you desire IS available and leave others to get what they desire if it's worth paying the price to them.</p>

190

<p>
[quote]
Skinner, have you noticed that your desires differ from most peoples where colleges are concerned?

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</p>

<p>My desires aren't terribly relevant to this discussion. I discussed the concept of "no frills" in response to a question about how I would reform the system to make it fairer.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It just seems logical for you to be happy that what you desire IS available and leave others to get what they desire if it's worth paying the price to them.

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</p>

<p>That's irrelevant to the question of whether places like Harvard are acting inequitably.</p>

<p>Let me give an example: If they re-introduced conscription in this country, I would speak out against it. Even though I am past military age and both of my children are female.</p>

191

<p>My EFC turned out to be 0.Is that bad?</p>

192

<p>Do you believe that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?</p>

<p>You mean do I realize that there are those who through deceptive marketing practices, ignorance or desperation get taken advantage of?
Certainly.</p>

<p>However, the point of these boards, is to educate parents and students, so they are aware of what their choices are- for example, that for a family whose EFC is similar to what their state school charges may be better served by a private school with a big endowment, or that FAFSA is free- and no one company, unless they are actually offering scholarships themselves, can guarentee that you get more money, and that there are lots of free resources out there, to help you look for schools, study for SATs and file the FAFSA, that you should never have to pay for it unless you are really determined to.</p>

193

<p>
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My EFC turned out to be 0.Is that bad?

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</p>

<p>It depends.</p>

<p>If you are applying to a school that meets 100% of your demonstrated need and gives a lot of grant aid, or has some sort of low income initiative where you will graduate virtually debt free then having an "0" efc is a good thing. The only trick is getting admitted to one of those colleges, which are amongst the most competitive and hardest to be admitted to.</p>

<p>If you are an international student, keep in mind that most schools in the U.S, are notneed blind to international students, so your ability to pay will be a factor in the admissions process. If this is the case, having a
"0" efc is not a good thing.</p>

<p>Most schools are need aware or need sensitive, so if it is the end of the admissions cycle and the school is choosing between you and a student who "needs" less, then the tip will go to the other student.</p>

<p>The majority of colleges in this country do not meet 100% of your demonstrated need, so if there is a big gap in your financial aid package you may not have the resources to fill the gap (taking the school off your list).</p>

<p>If you search the theads, there are many discussions on having a "0" efc.</p>

194

<p>
[quote]
You mean do I realize that there are those who through deceptive marketing practices, ignorance or desperation get taken advantage of?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, I mean the exact question I asked:</p>

<p>Do you think that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?</p>

<p>It's a simple question. And you can assume for the sake of the question that both parties to the transaction are "educated."</p>

195

<p>Such threads amaze me. OP and others need to understand that 150 K in income is a very high income. I make less than 150 K/yr and am paying full price. Granted housing costs in NE are high, but they are high if you want to buy today. They were not that out of whack 10-15 years ago.</p>

<p>EFC has three main components ~ 10-12% parent annual income + ~ 3-6% of parent liquid non retirement assets + ~ 25% student assets. So to make 39 K EFC you or your parents must have big pile of money stashed somewhere.</p>

<p>Also, you have to realize that even if you get some need based aid with 150 K in income, it will not be more than few thousands a year. You will NEVER get 100% off the sticker price. Passionflower8, you are bickering about few thousand dollar.</p>

196

<p>
[quote]
Also, you have to realize that even if you get some need based aid with 150 K in income, it will not be more than few thousands a year. You will NEVER get 100% off the sticker price. Passionflower8, you are bickering about few thousand dollar.

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<p>This may be true for passionflower's family but for others who may be reading, family size and number of kids in college can be significant variables. If you don't have much in the way of assets and have a larger family, and are attending an expensive school, the difference between EFC and costs can be more than a few thousand dollars. It's important to play with the calculators and have an idea of what your individual family is expected to pay.</p>

<p>Of course, it will never be 100% off the price!</p>

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<p>MomOFour but those things are already accounted for. Let us see here I make less than 150 K/yr, but pay 100%. She got an EFC of 39 K and 33 K on profile. If she goes to a school with a price of 47 K, she already is getting a break of 17% or 30%.</p>

<p>In my opinion the trouble starts when kids and parents 'decide' on a number that they believe is reasonable. Any departure from that number and they cry - grow up people.</p>

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<p>The amount of money IN retirement funds is NOT included on the FAFSA. The amount contributed to retirement funds for the FAFSA tax year IS included on the FAFSA. The FAFSA calculation does not include money your parents have in their retirement funds at all...not at all. It only includes the amount your parents contributed on the tax form that is reflected on your FAFSA. </p>

<p>It your parents are closer to retirement, the calculation of the EFC is affected because the assumption is that they will not be able to contribute as much out of current earnings if they are retired.</p>

199

<p>I will not complain about my EFC but the parental age thing bothers me. I get penalized because I had my child at a younger age? I don't think THAT is fair. The bottom line is life is not fair. Going to an expensive college takes sacrifice on everyone's part, parent and student. Probably everyone on this board could complain about some part of the FAFSA formula. It askes for child support income. That's great but child support ends at age 18, I doubt there will be any contribution towards college from her father, that's not fair either. Lots of things aren't fair.....</p>

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<p>I know so many people who have an EFC of over $10,000, even though they can't contribute that much. It's not fair, but there are just too many students. I was fortunate to have an EFC of $60.00, but there are 5 people under a $20,000 yearly income, so I would hope my EFC would be really low (!).</p>