<p>OK...I know times have changed..but...I grew up in a wealthy suburban area. But our family was not wealthy. My mom was a single mom back in the days when no one had single moms. I honestly didn't realize how poor we were until many years later. Our family too put a high priority on education. However, when it came time for college choices, I had to consider finances because otherwise I would not have been able to go. I too worked extremely long hours in the summers. My mom would not allow me to work during school (wanted me to devote my time to school which I did). Luckily I had an uncle who knew where I was going to spend my money, and he hired me to work for him, and paid me well. I went "where the money was" my freshman year...a small private LAC. To be honest, I just didn't like it (whole school was smaller than my hs graduation class). I transferred to a state school the following year. It was MY job to figure out how to pay for my education. My mom couldn't help me with financial aid forms (which were much less complex back when the dinos roamed). I did it all myself. When it came time for grad school, I applied to schools with the intention of having no debt. I went where the money was with no regrets on a full fellowship. I don't recall ever complaining about the amount of money I personally had to earn or the loans I took out for undergrad school ($1200 total...all forgiven because I taught in a priority school district for 5 years). I will say...now that I'm in the position of the OP...with an income 20 times what my mom made, I just can't whine about the amounts we are paying for college for our two kids. When they were born, we knew this was an obligation we would be undertaking. Yes, it's costly. But we certainly are in the position to pay the bills or take out loans. Oh...and just a reminder...we live in one of those expensive New England states, with one of the highest costs of living in the country. It's all about choices as someone else pointed out. BUT in my opinion, it's also about perspective. I know it's hard to stand back and look at the big picture, but as someone who has lived both sides of the financial coin, that is an important thing to be able to do.</p>
<p>Suze, I've asked my kids to read this thread, mostly to read about you. You continue to amaze me. Your education, travels, volunteering and hard work are inspirational to say the least. Most of all that all of this is accompanied by such a positive attitude rarely seen in teenagers! You will succeed at whatever your heart desires in a big way. Part of me wants to know your real name because I know I'll be hearing about you in the future.</p>
<p>You know, it comes as no surprise that the money for college has come to you. On Oprah today they were discussing how good things come to those who put out good energy. I've seen this to be true again and again.</p>
<p>You really lost me with the Chevy Chase analogy. The only guy fixing cars in that part of the Arizona desert deserves whatever he can get. I'd also pay a fortune for a drysuit if my boat was sinking in Alaska.</p>
<p>That also isn't overcharging- if a service is valuable, and the scarcity of the service combined with the skill would make it very valuable, how is that over charging?
Do you consider your Doctor to overcharge you when he bills your ins company $150, for a 15 min appt?
You are paying for the knowledge of both the car mechanic and the MD not just their time and supplies.</p>
<p>If people feel that schools are overcharging them- I don't see anyone breaking their arm to attend.</p>
<p>The irony is that lskinner described many state schools. What you want exists!</p>
<p>
[quote]
That also isn't overcharging- if a service is valuable, and the scarcity of the service combined with the skill would make it very valuable, how is that over charging?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If the charge is far more than what is necessary to provide the service (and make a fat profit) and is instead based on extracting as much money as possible from the customer, then the service provider is being a jerk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you consider your Doctor to overcharge you when he bills your ins company $150, for a 15 min appt?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, but let me give you a different analogy: You are on a cruise ship that is foundering. The crew is handing out life preservers (which cost them $20 each). They have plenty of life preservers, but they know you have $50,000 worth of credit on your credit cards. So they offer to sell you the life preservers for you and your family for $50k. Thus they are charging you $12,500 for a life preserver that cost them $20. (When you complain, they point out that the fine print on the back of your ticket says that they don't guarantee you a life preserver.) Would you pay the money? Probably. Is the ship crew acting lame? Absolutely. </p>
<p>This is an extreme example, to be sure. But it's the same principal at work. </p>
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If people feel that schools are overcharging them- I don't see anyone breaking their arm to attend.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So do you believe that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?</p>
<p>
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The irony is that lskinner described many state schools. What you want exists!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That may be so, but it doesn't affect my point that certain schools are acting inequitably.</p>
<p>Ok, Im trying to get some perspective of where these statements are coming from- a little harder since I can't see anyone.</p>
<p>I understand that someone who doesn't forsee that planning ahead when traveling could save lots of stress and money- might want to push that blame on the person who helps him out-
but what perspective decides that a car mechanic who provides a rare service doesn't deserve to be compensated * fairly*
but then can make this statement?</p>
<p>I totally agree. I was making $190k at BIG(f?)LAW when I quit 5 years ago. The job was NOT worth $190k. But I did end up with a nice house.</p>
<p>So meybbe what goes around, comes around?</p>
<p>
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but what perspective decides that a car mechanic who provides a rare service doesn't deserve to be compensated fairly
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ummm, I never made such a claim.</p>
<p>Anyway, you never answered my question. It is a serious question, and I would appreciate an answer so that I can understand your position:</p>
<p>Do you believe that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?</p>
<p>
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The biggest legitimate complaint is that colleges charge far more in tuition than what is reasonably necessary.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why would anyone who thinks they're being overcharged go to such a college, then? State schools are subsidized and if your "biggest legitimate complaint" is being overcharged, then a state school is your answer.</p>
<p>
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Why would anyone who thinks they're being overcharged go to such a college, then? State schools are subsidized and if your "biggest legitimate complaint" is being overcharged, then a state school is your answer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that certain colleges are acting inequitably.</p>
<p>Do you think that a voluntary transaction can never be unfair?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you consider your Doctor to overcharge you when he bills your ins company $150, for a 15 min appt?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, a physician cannot charge cash or credit paying patients less than insurance companies. This has been referred to as 2 tier billing, and it is not allowed. Insurance companies have seen to that b/c if it were allowed, insurance companies would help to carry those who don't have insurance and say that they cannot afford it. Also, the doctor would be getting rich on the deep pockets (the insurance company in this instance) that appear to be able to pay whatever the doctor feels like charging for a service.</p>
<p>doctors/billing - in real life this means it is illegal for an MD to give a break to a senior or poor uninsured patient. </p>
<p>back to the OP. I think they had no clue that good grades did not mean free college of your choice - as opposed to free college (maybe) 2 tiers down from your choice. Now they're upset, she's upset.<br>
OP - your best bet is a state college, because let's say your family's legit extra expenses, mom out of work etc. bring down the EFC at the LAC. That's this year. Next year it bounces right back up again unless the family income is going to drop for the four years. When you have no $ from a college as need based aid at least your family income won't effect your staying at the college.
The sad part of this for OP is that colleges cannot consider the difference between her parents, who only recently and with overtime made a big salary, and folks who have always had that much income. That, like the MD giving a break, is regulated and illegal.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>If the charge is far more than what is necessary to provide the service (and make a fat profit) and is instead based on extracting as much money as possible from the customer, then the service provider is being a jerk.>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Actually, if there are other providers providing the same service for less charge and the CHARGE is important to the customer, then the customer is the one who is a jerk...in my opinion. If there are options and one doesn't exercise those options, then why would the person providing the options be the jerk? Take cars...I could buy a $50,000 car or a $5000 car. The reality is that both are transportation. If I want the "brand name", I will be paying for the "brand name". However if the cost is important to me and I need transportation, there are less expensive transportation options available to me when I purchase a car. If the cost is REALLY important to me, then the less expensive option would be the one I would need to choose...or truthfully I should not be complaining. I know folks would argue that a BMW will last longer than a Chevy, just as they would argue that a "name brand college" education is more valuable than a "no name recognition college" education. However, just as with the car, both would fulfill the need. And with cars, you get out of them what you put into them (good car typically yields longer use), same as education...you get out of it what you put into it.</p>
<p>My beef with the college financial aid system is this. Federal and State government provide tons of funding for low and middle income families to be able to attend college. As state and federal governments increase aid from taxpayer dollars, the colleges just keep increasing tuition (and reducing institutional aid to offset government grants), so the money effectively gets passed through to the colleges, without changing the situation (on average) for the student and his family. </p>
<p>You got a Pell Grant? says the college--- great! We'll just reduce our university grant. Got a CalGrant to cover tuition? Great! We'll reduce our university grant by that amount. Federal government is increasing aid? Great! We'll just bump tuition so we can get it all.</p>
<p>I believe in free markets, but something isn't working right here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, if there are other providers providing the same service for less charge and the CHARGE is important to the customer, then the customer is the one who is a jerk...in my opinion. If there are options and one doesn't exercise those options, then why would the person providing the options be the jerk?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What if Harvard announces the following upside-down tuition schedule:</p>
<p>(1) If your parents earn more than $200k per year, tuition is free.</p>
<p>(2) If your parents earn less than $200k per year, tuition is $50k per year.</p>
<p>Would you agree that Harvard is being unfair? By your standard, it would seem that the transaction is completely fair because everybody has other options besides Harvard.</p>
<p>Fair is not equal. Harvard is a private institution. Yes, I believe they could do what you stated above and I would think it just fine. Bottom line...yes...you would have other options. I don't think this is any different than the yearly decisions some families have to make when the cost of attendance at the kid's college goes UP and their finaid goes DOWN. They have to consider whether to exercise other options. Some kids have had to transfer schools due to additional costs. That is a choice they may have to make. I don't think "fair" has anything to do with this. It's life, and life isn't always "fair".</p>
<p>
[quote]
I believe in free markets, but something isn't working right here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree, and I think part of the problem is that colleges have intimate knowledge of their customers' financial resources. </p>
<p>Right now, I'm negotiating over my rent with my landlord and he has absolutely no idea how much I can afford to pay for rent. If he knew, then I'm sure he would demand much more.</p>
<p>I responded to the "life isn't fair" argument in an earlier post. Here was my post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I realize these questions are not addressed to me, but -- as I stated before -- I think "Life just isn't fair" is a bit of a cop out. Because it is frequently used to belittle peoples' legitimate complaints.</p>
<p>Have you ever complained about anything ever to anyone? Because they could easily respond "Hey, life isn't fair" They could also point out that whatever your complaint is, there are people in much worse situations than you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>When I hear someone who attended schools that are better supported than what many have available in their area,
whose family makes about 3 times the national average,
who has learned to have high expectations of what their opportunities are, compared to many who have learned to expect little so that they arent' disappointed,
when this person then complains that * life isn't fair*!, when they realize it will not be as easy to continue on the path that they think they * deserve* as they thought- I think - * nope- life certainly isn't fair is it?* ;)</p>
<p>Because they could easily respond "Hey, life isn't fair" They could also point out that whatever your complaint is, there are people in much worse situations than you.</p>
<p>And what sort of perspective would you have to have to expect people who come from those * worse situations* to have a lot of sympathy for someone of a more privileged background who is only now realizing that life isn't fair?</p>