should fafsa efc be almost 1/3 of my parents' income?

Paying for College
121

<p>I didn't finish a point I started to make above- which I agree that low income families may receive benefits that middle income families have to pay for- like assists in housing etc- I also wouldn't argue for those benefits to be taken away, although I think the maximum income to qualify should be increased.</p>

<p>I also wouldn't want to trade places, Ive seen families who are trying to help themselves and their kids become part of the middle class, and it can seem like an unattainable goal, with much trying to keep them where they "belong".</p>

<p>Kids also really worry about expenses.
My own daughter, thought she would save money by not buying a required textbook for the most difficult class she had. (OCHEM) Yes science textbooks are very expensive, all those color plates and DVD-ROMS- as well as model kits. But it IMO was a bad decision, because while she did borrow a classmates book at times, and used the library copy, she also failed to pass the class- and retaking it meant, taking a year off, because there wasn't anyway she could just "add" Ochem to her class schedule & we didn't come from an academic background, we had no idea how difficult it was going to be ( or that she wasn't going to buy the book)</p>

<p>Scholarships don't usually cover books, but having to retake a class, ultimately was a lot more expensive than buying the text.</p>

122

<p>OK I already got my political science degree and I hate to get political, but there are a few recurring themes here I feel I need to address.</p>

<p>1) Public universities are the BEST forms of financial aid. The aid here is TOTALLY need blind. When you have an average public tuition of $10,000 or so and an average private tuition of $30,000, this means the government is somehow cutting out $20,000 per student. NOT BAD for aid that is need-blind.</p>

<p>2) A lot of the complaints are coming from people in blue states and the inflated cost of taxes and real-estate just doesn't seem to make up for the benefits of available public programs & governmental support. There is an option to support government leaders who will lower costs and taxes of living and doing business in that state. There is an option to leave the state and head to a cheaper, more reasonable location. Many people are supporting this trend. If it isn't worth the move, then the situation isn't so bad then is it?</p>

<p>3) My parents combined made about half of the OP's parents. Again, no way they could ever meet the full EFC. I got good grades, some merit-aid, and graduated with zero debt. Personally, I'm glad I don't have to worry about making a certain amount of money just to survive. After graduation, I was able to take a low-paying job with a great environment, great benefits, a great altruistic purpose, and flexible hours. Maybe sometimes I wish I had gone to MIT or Georgia Tech to study chemistry, but that was a choice I made and I am personally VERY happy with my choice to attend a local public university and live at home for as long as possible. Its about as low budget as you can get, but in four years I probably spent less on all expenses than some students spend on their freshman year.</p>

<p>The thing is, you just have to objectively look at the choices and realize that resources are limited and the very definition of economy is that everyone can't have everything they want. </p>

<p>So, start looking at loans, or start looking at cheaper schools. Each one has consequences and benefits and one or the other may be right for you but not right for someone else in a different situation/mind-frame!</p>

<p>Basically though, those are the choices.</p>

<p>(Oh, and about school in England; England still has a very class-driven economy. They can tell where you "belong" in life based on what kind of accent you have. You can get the same degree as the next bloke, but your whole life you will be judged on the financial situation of your parents and the place they could afford to live. Socialism isn't very pretty in practice. Whatever school you go to for PoliSci, and whatever political leaning the staff has, remember that. Without adding a significant amount of economics and history added to a PoliSci degree, it is merely an education in learning how to manipulate people and huge sums of money for personal/party gain. Politicians don't really tend to care about the poor, middle class, OR rich unless they're strategically tied to retaining power.)</p>

123

<p>
[quote]
Schools however aren't usually for-profit & often charge different amounts as do medical providers-

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The problem is that "giving a break to poor people" can easily evolve into "soaking people for all they are worth." If 10 or 15 percent of people are getting financial aid, I don't have a problem. But if 70% of people are getting financial aid, that's extremely troubling.</p>

124

<p>The OP is young and naive. Hopefully this thread has helped her see the light. Her parents work at least 40 hrs./wk and work hard for their money? What exactly does she think the rest of us are doing? There are no good schools under $40K? Hope she hasn't mentioned that to the people teaching and mentoring her.</p>

<p>OP, it's time to grow up in a hurry. You have more and better opportunities than the vast majority of the world. You have become spoiled and entitled.</p>

125

<p>I don't have a problem. But if 70% of people are getting financial aid, that's extremely troubling.</p>

<p>I have obviously been reading these boards for a long time ;), I find them fascinating, even though I don't have a degree and only have two kids.</p>

<p>However over time, I have seen students who come from families making $100K even $140K who have received need based financial aid. Schools who are using donated funds, I assume designated for scholarships, should be able to use those funds for scholarships. </p>

<p>If a school looks at a family making more than double average national salary, and considers them to need aid to attend their very expensive school- I don't have a problem with that. Before tax income is hardly representative of after tax income. I am not privy to all the details of expenses and of the student background. I know some on the boards see families making more money than they and getting aid, and students who aren't as "academic" being admitted when their kid is declined.-That I know is frustrating, but I doubt any of us know all the background information.</p>

<p>* I also want to add, that a few of these schools also have merit based scholarships for current students- Colgate for example, only offers need based aid- but for students who are attending, there are many, often very generous scholarships designated by alums or organizations for Colgate students based on merit- something that if you are really interested in a school, you should check out*</p>

<p>For example my daughter attended a school that met "100%of need".( We are middle class, but still needed aid for her to attend- if she had attended our state schools, we would have paid full price)
Her scores and stats were below the average student at the college. It was a reach for her, and we didn't think that even if she was admitted she would receive enough money to attend.</p>

<p>If I had known at the time about another student on CC, who had applied, with even lower EFC, with much higher scores, who * didn't * receive a good enough package to attend- I wouldn't have even thought she had a chance.
But she *was * admitted and she received a good aid package, with very small subsidized loans and the rest grants & workstudy( that met EFC- no dickering about if EFC was realistic).
However, she had some things going for her, that others might not have had or considered. She had a strong academic background and performance- but in a school that didn't weight grades or offer APs. She had thousands of hours of community service, even before high school graduation, she additionally had taken a year off before college, to do more volunteer work.</p>

<p>I don't know, if she had taken all that energy and put it into raising her grades and her test scores, if it would have made the same impact.
( However again I am only guessing- I haven't asked why they ranked her high for the aid package and they didn't tell me)</p>

<p>I am also guessing that those who have the most problem with the amount of need based aid that is given to those with EFCs under $50K, have EFCs of * over* $50,000, additionally, that they are considering schools that don't offer * any* merit based aid.
So not alot I can say to them, that hasn't already been said.
They know there are alot of great schools out there that * do* offer merit based aid, they don't want those schools.
They don't want to attend someplace else and transfer to save money.
They don't want loans, they often don't want to work during school or even summers to put toward college tuition.
They frankly have already made their mind up that "life is unfair", and again from reading these boards, many families do end up sending their kid if admitted to the expensive school that doesn't give merit aid, they just want to grumble about it.</p>

<p>Fine, but don't expect anyone else from a less advantaged background to join you in your pity party.- they have their own, only the wine comes out of a box ;)</p>

126

<p>I can think of one situation where a pity party is merited. Some schools are devising programs wherein if your income is $XYZ you qualify for some amazing aid...if your income is $XYZ + 1 you don't qualify...your aid is not the amazing aid plus one dollar, your aid is calculated based upon the old usual not so amazing formula. </p>

<p>Some schools seem to apply these programs with lines drawn by formula, like a FAFSA determination, other schools do not, they look at the big picture.</p>

<p>If I made just a wee bit above the limit and missed the great aid, I would crack open the box and have a pity party ;) at the line being drawn so strictly.</p>

127

<p>if you consider what college you attend to be a reflection of your merit, and you think environment is one of the key factors in personal growth, with what's good for one person not always being right for the other, then it makes sense to think that those who are accepted at a college should not be unable to go based on finances.
how can meritocracy function if the doors to selective, admittedly excellent instituations is barred to those in certain financial situations, whether it's the poor, the middle and upper middle classes, or even the rich?
i feel that if you are good enough to get into a college, then you should not be stopped by money from attending. call me idealistic, naive, what have you, but i think that those who have proven their merit through acceptance are entitled to attend any institution they so chose.
otherwise, the makeup of top colleges, which routinely, due to connections, academics, w/e tend to produce in gross misproportion to the amount of people who attend them a large amount of leaders. if this door is barred, then the rich and whomever the colleges choose to aid financially will continue to rise, while the middle class will remain middle class.
i am not saying that state us and community colleges do not produce leaders, or that they don't provide a great education. what i am saying is that there is a HUGE difference in those 15 miles or so between Princeton (to which I did not apply, if you're wondering) and Rutgers, both great old schools revered at home and abroad. If you are #1 in your class at Rutgers, or if you make a friend and try to connect with alumni at Rutgers, you may do great; if you are #1 in your class at Princeton, and you make some good friends and meet the alumni, you will probably do better.
However, some people would be much better off at Rutgers than at Princeton; I did not apply not only because of the selectivity but also because the environment, according to people who actually went there, is so status-driven, both "merit" -wise and money/class/connections-wise that I would not do my best work. Not to mention that it is a research university where teaching undergrads is NOT the first priority.
how about the difference between Amherst and U Mass? or better, Amherst and TCNJ, a fine state liberal arts college. Both have a commitment to undergrads, both are selective (though one is more selective than the other) but really, the opportunities are not the same. TCNJ is not academically respected as much as Rutgers as though it does far better, according to some, in the teaching area. Amherst, by the way, gives students money to take their professors out to dinner. It is ranked as top feeder school to top Business, Law, and Med schools (the professional schools where name and alumni connection really matters more than undergrad). TCNJ appears no where on this list. THis could be for several reasons, which i'm sure the poli sci major will enlighten you on, but overall the quality of education, alumni networks, opportunities for special study, travel, etc. are just not in the same league.
I'm sure many people will get mad at me for saying this, but its true.</p>

<p>the reverse can be true as well. some people thrive in lecture halls in large universities. others do better with small classes and lots of interaction with professors.</p>

<p>however, in selecting colleges to which to apply, the student must take the initiative in selecting the schools they feel will be the best environment. sometimes students are wrong and transfer, but most students do not.</p>

<p>basically, if you force top students into an environment that is less than optimal for them, and also do not offer nearly the same advantages as private schools for financial reasons, you are not stunting their growth, but you are indeed putting them in a less than optimal situation. life is like that, but why should a similar student whose parents make more money, or one whose parents make less money, or one whose parents make the same money but refuse to contribute get the optimal environment and advantages where the student who is of similar quality but not financial situation be denied for financial reasons the priviledge of attending.</p>

128

<p>john, Just one comment about if you don't move, it is not so bad? Believe me, if we could move we would. It happens that our family's business which has been built over 25 years, is in this area. To relocate means losing one's current income, and secondarily to that it requires schooing, and testing and to seek a professional license in another state. This is a business that cannot even be sold if one wanted to do so. There are other issues involved such as an elderly disabled parent that lives near us in a facility. There is more to it when one gets older than just packing a suitcase and heading freely to a less expensive state.</p>

129

<p>I don't think anyone's mad passionflower but I imagine a lot of eyes are rolling. Hello? Where have you been? Do you read much? What you go on about are age old truthes not about to change anytime soon.</p>

<p>If fact, in the last 3 decades the rich have gotten MUCH richer as the middle class has declined terribly. You may not see it as much in NJ, but the middle class is suffering terribly in most parts of the Country. Manufacturing jobs have dissapeared. Competition from Asian countries is lowering wages. Pension funds have gone poof. The number of middle class high school drop outs is growing as is the number of kids putting themselves through college.</p>

<p>A middle class kid going to a good state school is not considered a problem by most of the middle class. Look at the list of Fortune 500 CEOs, many went to state schools.</p>

<p>I understand your want of a small LAC, I wanted that too which is why I'm on a gap year and worked more than 60 hours/wk for 2 summers during high school. Do I think it's unfair? Hell no, it's the way it is. I also think all efforts pay off. My gap year job and contacts are serving me well. Wouldn't trade the experience for the world.</p>

<p>So get off your soapbox Passionflower and start making lemonade--then sell it!!</p>

130

<p>Amen Suze. 127 posts later you're still not getting it. Passionflower8, you do have an idealistic view of how the Country works. If you want to be a future leader, hold on to good ideals but ground yourself in realism. Colleges are more of a meritocracy than they've ever been, and more people have access to top schools than at any time in history. Getting in is indeed a triumph. Affording it, however, is a family issue. </p>

<p>If you can truly look around and believe you and your family have done everything you could to make your dream school a priority, you have my sympathy. If however, you are like so many families that have bigger houses then necessary, multiple cars, plasma TVs...you get my point, then I have little sympathy.</p>

<p>Education is expensive and is a family choice like any other purchase. Suze is right, if you want it badly enough take a gap year and get a job. Are you working now? Hopefully your parents, out of guilt, will not take lonas that will hurt their retirement.</p>

131

<p>Wow, just wow! Clearly passion does not know how she sounds. Which BTW is beyond obnoxious and ignorant. Passion, do you not think tons of kids at every large State U would not prefer small classes and free dinners with profs (which many colleges offer,not just Amherst)? Do you not understand that money is perhaps the largest element of the college decision for all but a few percent of the population?</p>

<p>It's hard to believe between your school friends and family, no one mentioned that you should consider money when applying to college. Marx and Utopian ideals make good reading, but this is America, 2007.</p>

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<p>life doesnt work as post #127 wants it to work. ... Look at me, i have 0 efc, most schools will meet my need, yet i didnt apply to a SINGLE non state school, because my goals are grounded in reality. ....... becuase in either case i knew i wasnt getting a full ride, and in either case i was going to get loans. </p>

<p>If poeople chose universaties simply based on ideal setting and "where i would do best" then students wouldnt be making lists of 10+ schools.</p>

<p>Money plays a crucial factor in EVERYTHING you do. Unless your born like Paris Hilton, and can afford to drop any amount of money on any eduaction you may want to have, your goal is to find a insituation that will provide you a balance of the things you need, want, and can afford.</p>

<p>Life is a balancing act, money always matters, you seldom get what you want, and you hope what you have is what you need.</p>

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<p>the question i asked was "SHOULD efc...". i am telling you my opinion. i am not trying to say how things are, but how things should be.
Can you not agree it's wrong the way things are? or do you prefer having a chip on your shoulder to prove you made it when things were bad? do you think the situation now is as it should be, because it excludes all but the people who totally reorder their lives to go to a certain college?
it is like the chances, admissions, etc forums on cc. unless you would give your right arm for something, people say you don't deserve it or don't want it enough. i don't know what i'm going to do in my situation.
I HAVE STATED SEVERAL TIMES that I WILL GO INTO A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF DEBT and don't have a problem with that. I'm just saying that it is BS the way the system works.
I don't think you should have to take a gap year. Maybe I will do that, but I'm not going to be happy about it. I don't think you should have to choose a state school, maybe i'll do it, but I'm not going to be happy about it.
I AM WILLING TO WORK I AM WILLING TO TAKE LOANS. but THE SYSTEM IS UNJUST_ just because YOU found a way of dealing with it doesn't mean it's as it should be. instead of calling me idealistic, just understand what context in which i am speaking. I think things the way they are SCREWED UP. I will do what I have to do to go to the right college for me. i may go to a state school. I may go to community colllege and then transfer. GOd only knows. BUT I SURE AS AnYTHING will not simply be beaten out of my reason by an injust reality and think that just because i had to take an extreme measure to go to college and I found a way of working in a ridiculous system doesn't make it right.<br>
COLLEGE IS SUPPOSED TO BE IDEALISTIC, a place of philosophy and principle. It's goal is not just real world utility. JUST BECAUSE THINGS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE DOES NOT MAKE THEM RIGHT.</p>

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<p>suze, have you ever read candide?
we don't live in the best possible world just because we can make good out of what is. if you stop trying to work for a better world, then no amount of education, contacts, or what have you will help you change the world. maybe that is not your goal. maybe you want to be rich and powerful, or just lead a life of service. my goal is to change the world and make it a better place. idealistic to the extreme, but I'm proud of my ideals. just because I stick to my ideals in a unfair reality does not make me a spoiled brat. thankfully i have ideals, thankfully i have ways to cope with reality- i haven't lost sight of that as you seem to think.</p>

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<p>Passion, maybe while your changing the world you can work for Suze who will have degrees from Andover, Dartmouth and undoubtedly a top grad school if she doesn't quit her gap year job to fight all the world's unfairness.</p>

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<p>you don't have to agree with the system to work within it</p>

137

<p>Passionflower, we all have to tackle this world our own way.</p>

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<p>Passion, I hate to say it, but I think your parents make too much money. Not because of how it affects your eligibility for financial aid, but because of how it has apparently influenced your upbringing and attitudes. My guess is that even though your parents have had to work hard for their income, they have always been able to easily provide for you -- and this is the first time in your life you are up against the very hard reality of wanting something very much that your parents cannot afford to pay for. </p>

<p>Most lower and middle income kids confront that reality -- and learn the lesson that goes with it -- much, much earlier in life. The very poor may learn it when it impacts on basic needs; in middle class families like mine, the basic needs are met but the kids tend to learn that lesson when they want some special article of clothing or toy or electronic equipment that their friends can have, but which happens to be outside what their parents can budget. I know that my kids both understood about money limitations and comparison shopping when they were pre-schoolers; for example, it would be pretty common going through the aisles of the grocery store that I would make them put back items they wanted but which I could not afford. There was a time when they felt overwhelmed by disappointment and anger over the denial of something they thought was very important.... but that time in their lives happened when they were 4.... by the time they were 5 or 6 it was simply a well understood fact of life.</p>

<p>Of course it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world where everyone could have what they needed and what they wanted... but as long as there are children starving in Sudan I think it's misplaced to pin our idealistic hope of "what should be" on the preference of American teenagers to attend the college of their choice. Let's go for the ideals of meeting everyone's basic as the first "should" on our list -- when that part is taken care of, we can see about a program of guaranteed payment for the college of your choice.</p>

139

<p>Exactly. Her continuing tirades remind me of a small kid stamping her feet.</p>

<p>BTW, Suze, who you seem to think sold out to the system, did several months of relief work in India. </p>

<p>How do you describe your mission to better the world Passion, the campaign for free elite LACs for all with incomes above $150,000.</p>

<p>How about a weekend at a homeless shelter to understand how unfair the world can be?</p>

140

<p>These issues aside-- kudos to your parents, pf8, for working hard and doing well for you and your family. And I hope your Mom does OK.</p>

<p>Whatever school you end up going to, let their FinAid folks know that your financial situation is changing dramatically because of your Mom's illness and reduced income, it might make a difference in your aid eligibility. Good luck in college.</p>