<p>In my opinion, she has a legitimate grievance. The fact that she is better off than 99% of the world's population doesn't make her complaint any less legitimate. Nor does the fact that life is frequently unfair absolve colleges of their inequitable conduct.</p>
<p>I do hope that she uses her creativity and intelligence to overcome this problem.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
<p>Passionflower, have you ever considered the difference between the education you've had to date and that experienced by a student in a poorer school district? Imagine no AP classes, no body of peers to inspire and challenge you, no school-funded EC's, and maybe enough violence to make you stop going before you finish. Life just isn't fair.</p>
<p>if you stop trying to work for a better world, then no amount of education, contacts, or what have you will help you change the world. maybe that is not your goal. maybe you want to be rich and powerful, or just lead a life of service. my goal is to change the world and make it a better place. idealistic to the extreme, but I'm proud of my ideals.</p>
<p>That's great :)
For example, perhaps you would be interested in founding a resource like
the Economic Opportunity Institute.
Their mission statement
[quote]
The Economic Opportunity Institute develops new public policies to create ladders for low-income people to move into the middle-class and to plug holes so that middle-class families do not fall into poverty. EOI is an activist, progressive, and majoritarian institute. We pursue our work through media outreach, public dialogue, and policy initiatives that address the shared economic security concerns of middle-class and low-income workers.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Or perhaps you are concerned about the environment- if so you would be like the former director of Washington Conservation Voters which * works to protect both our jobs and our environment for generations to come by advocating for strong conservation policy and electing and supporting candidates for public office who will fight to protect our land, air, and water.* who is only * formerly* the director of WCV, because he is now the executive director of the federation of state conservation voter leagues.</p>
<p>Perhaps you are interested in serving on in the cabinet of POTUS, for example, heading up OSHA?</p>
<p>If so you would be like three of the graduates of a public college in Washington State.</p>
<p>But, if you think that you need the boost of a school where you can have a more expensive piece of paper for your diploma, although it will limit to in the jobs you will be able to accept because of loan expenses, you may need to live a little longer till you gain the perspective that just because it is expensive doesn't mean that it is better or appropriate, and just because it is affordable, doesn't mean it is inferior and that those who really * do * plan on * changing the world * don't need the equivalent of Gucci bag and shoes to do so.</p>
<p>Well put EK,
[quote]
But, if you think that you need the boost of a school where you can have a more expensive piece of paper for your diploma, although it will limit to in the jobs you will be able to accept because of loan expenses, you may need to live a little longer till you gain the perspective that just because it is expensive doesn't mean that it is better or appropriate, and just because it is affordable, doesn't mean it is inferior and that those who really do plan on changing the world don't need the equivalent of Gucci bag and shoes to do so.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Passionflower, have you ever considered the difference between the education you've had to date and that experienced by a student in a poorer school district?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>MomOfour this is so true. On the other hand, I know of kids who go to private prep day schools that cost what my son's college costs, and his includes room and board! They have access to things that my kids have never seen ranging from LAX teams, indoor pools, classes with 10 students and their own textbooks. Public school students cannot highlight in their decade old textbooks. My kids have been in classes where there are too few computers (but at least we have some). They have had to share their texts and desks b/c there were not enough to go around. We do have APs and this is an excellent public, but it is lightyears from what exists in a private prep. There is always someone worse off, and someone who is better off. Those kids have had every advantage and they can attend the private colleges that are out of reach to many middle class students. It is not just the poor who cannot attend, but the middle class student is often left out too. I know that is an unpopular position to some, but it is reality.</p>
<p>Up until recently, our local high school was an underperforming school. There were rumors of gang fighting and shootings after school. Some of our teenaged workers have been shot at.</p>
<p>So when my oldest child was high school age, my major concern was simply safety. We ended up sending him to a public charter school in another city. </p>
<p>There have been many changes over the past few years in the school and in our community. I was somewhat reluctant, but agreed when my middle child decided to attend the local school. It was the right decision for him. Sure, there are not a boatload of APs etc. but he is getting a decent education and as mentioned before, my main concern is safety.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Passionflower, have you ever considered the difference between the education you've had to date and that experienced by a student in a poorer school district? Imagine no AP classes, no body of peers to inspire and challenge you, no school-funded EC's, and maybe enough violence to make you stop going before you finish. Life just isn't fair.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I realize these questions are not addressed to me, but -- as I stated before -- I think "Life just isn't fair" is a bit of a cop out. Because it is frequently used to belittle peoples' legitimate complaints.</p>
<p>Have you ever complained about anything ever to anyone? Because they could easily respond "Hey, life isn't fair" They could also point out that whatever your complaint is, there are people in much worse situations than you.</p>
<p>lskinner, can you explain how someone with a $150,000 family income has a legitimate complaint here?</p>
<p>I have the same question. $150K is about triple the national average. In another thread Passionflower explained her parents are a nurse (not blue collar btw) and prison guard. These are professions where 1) you can typically do in lower cost parts of the country and 2) get a lot of overtime. They had choices to make and the outcome was not to save for college. The EFC, fairly IMO, believes they should have saved. </p>
<p>Why should their child get more aid that that of a family with the same income that did save? You will find many on this board with similar incomes and lesser incomes who made college savings a priority and enabled more school choice for their children. I would guess most of their children are not inquiring if freshman can bring cars to college as passionflower did on another thread.</p>
<p>Why do so many have this crazy idea that colleges owe the general population something?</p>
<p>How many Honda drivers wouldn't prefer a BMW? However I would venture to guess that most appreciate what a good value the Honda is and appreciate that they have a safe ride as they pass the people waiting for the bus. I know I do.</p>
<p>One last point. I found your rant at Suze sad but probably typical of how most middle class teens think. Taking out some time, in Suze's cas a year and a few summers, to make your dreams happen would make you unhappy. It's inconvenient and unfair.</p>
<p>Suze, I hope your parent's know what a gem they raised. I admire you, and them greatly. When you're my age you realize what a small sacrifice 1 year is. I'm also not surprised it's been so rewarding for Suze. Perspective is everything.</p>
<p>Passion save this thread and read it when you're thirty. Share it with your children. Ah youth!</p>
<p>
[quote]
john, Just one comment about if you don't move, it is not so bad? Believe me, if we could move we would. It happens that our family's business which has been built over 25 years, is in this area. To relocate means losing one's current income, and secondarily to that it requires schooing, and testing and to seek a professional license in another state. This is a business that cannot even be sold if one wanted to do so. There are other issues involved such as an elderly disabled parent that lives near us in a facility. There is more to it when one gets older than just packing a suitcase and heading freely to a less expensive state.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh I definately understand that situation (it sounds similar to one in my own family) but unfortunately I cannot offer any realistic solution other than perhaps political activism - and we know what a slow, time consuming, and incremental process that can be. Obviously, you are aware of your options and have weighed the consequences and come to a conclusion. My point was addressed in regards to some who feel they have no choice or that their choices are unfair. </p>
<p>Voters and politicians support too many resolutions that just end up making life more expensive. So I kind of understand the "whoa is me" attitude, even considering we are the world's richest we can see political activities that rob us of that wealth. As good as things are, they could still be better (or made worse in the attempt of being made better, as history shows).</p>
<p>Personally, I want to get through my second undergraduate degrees loan free so I can go nuts on a medical program that's simply perfect for me (and extremely expensive). For the OP, that might be a good option for you too. Go cheap in undergrad, just make sure you are at the top of your class with work experience in the field (or internships) and leadership activities so you can get into a great grad program. If your ultimate goal is an advanced degree, you're going to need to be REALLY specific about what you want to study. "Politics" or "Government" is way too broad to pick an appropriate grad school, so don't bury your later, more important financial choices with an expensive introduction.</p>
<p>
[quote]
lskinner, can you explain how someone with a $150,000 family income has a legitimate complaint here?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The biggest legitimate complaint is that colleges charge far more in tuition than what is reasonably necessary. It doesn't matter how rich you are -- if you are getting ripped off, you are getting ripped off. In theory, colleges are not-for-profit entities. It is reasonable for a profit-making entity to set a price for goods or services that far exceeds the reasonable cost to the entity of providing those goods or services. The difference is profit and business corporations are taxed on that profit. If Chrysler can find people willing to pay $30,000 for cars that cost $20,000 to manufacture and wants to pay its CEO a $2 million dollar salary, then more power to them. But colleges are (or claim to be) not-for-profit. It is inappropriate for them to engage in profit-seeking behavior, no matter how rich the people are who provide those profits.</p>
<p>Second, colleges engage in price discrimination. It's like the scene in the movie Vacation when Chevy Chase's car is broken down in the Arizona desert and he asks the garage owner how much it will cost to fix his car, and the garage owner says "How much you got?" It doesn't matter how rich Chevy Chase's character was -- he was still getting ripped off and he has a legitimate gripe. Colleges put a nice spin on it, but the whole financial aid thing smacks of stripping families (particularly middle class families) of as much money as they think they can get away with.</p>
<p>Third, colleges promote the fiction that they will meet financial need. This is simply false. No matter how rich you are, you have a legitimate right to complain about dishonest behavior, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Fourth, when allocating financial aid, it would appear that colleges don't take a lot of expenses into account. For example, when you apply for a loan, you are normally asked about your monthly house payment; your monthly car payment; etc. The lender evaluates your ability to pay based on the difference between your income and expenses. In deterimining ability to pay, it seems that colleges don't pay enough attention to expenses. Where I live (Bergen County, New Jersey), you can easily spend $50,000 per year just on mortgage payments and property taxes for a basic no-frills house. That's not fair.</p>
<p>Last, colleges are allowed to get together and agree on methods for determining and allocating financial aid. In my opinion, this is completely anti-competitive, and is part of the reason so many families are getting screwed. In any other industry, if the major players got together to agree on how they will set prices, their CEO's would all end up in jail. But colleges are allowed to do this, and as a result (in my opinion) everyone ends up paying more. It doesn't matter how wealthy you are -- if you pay more for a good or service because of anticompetitive behavior, you have a legitimate grievance.</p>
<p>I can tell you're not an MBA! You really lost me with the Chevy Chase analogy. The only guy fixing cars in that part of the Arizona desert deserves whatever he can get. I'd also pay a fortune for a drysuit if my boat was sinking in Alaska.</p>
<p>So your point is that everyone has a legitimate complaint against colleges. So's here's the good news: you don't have to go.</p>
<p>On the parent's board Mini often proclaims that many people would pay a lot more than the sticker price at top colleges if they could get their kids in. I agree, I know lots of people who'd pay way more than 40 odd thousand for a top 20 school for the little darlings. </p>
<p>The only point you may have is that maybe private schools should not receive govt. money and should have to pay tax. Believe me, they'll do that before they change their ways. In fact, all that would do is force them to take a higher percentage of the very wealthy.</p>
<p>Also, understand why they don't have different allowances for different people or different states. Should they allow your Mercedes car payment along with my Honda's? Then they need to figure out if you have to licve in beautiful, expensive San Diego or you just want to. Should they hire people to wade through who is thrifty and who overspends? As for different state's, let's face it, a $150K kid from NJ isn't providing anything much different than the $150K kid from Kentuckey, not meeting any of the college's needs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd also pay a fortune for a drysuit if my boat was sinking in Alaska.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would too, but it doesn't make the guy who's overcharging you any less of a jerk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So your point is that everyone has a legitimate complaint against colleges. So's here's the good news: you don't have to go.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So what? Just about any unfair policy can be avoided by not doing business with the offending institution. Doesn't make things any less unfair. Anyway, the question was whether someone who earns $150k can have a legitimate complaint about colleges, and the answer is clearly "yes."</p>
<p>Yes, but the overcharging jerks dissapear pretty quickly if they don't have a market.</p>
<p>Just to make sure I understand you, the kid from a family making $500K also has a legitimate complaint?</p>
<p>Also, you do realize there is not a strong LAC in the country that doesn't say tuition does not cover a student's full cost.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, but the overcharging jerks dissapear pretty quickly if they don't have a market.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Can I take it that you favor scrapping every last consumer protection law, antitrust law, and anti-profiteering law on the books? I suggest you put down your Ayn Rand literature and face reality: Markets sometimes fail.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just to make sure I understand you, the kid from a family making $500K also has a legitimate complaint?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Absolutely. The legitimacy of a complaint does not depend on the affluence of the complainer. If Warren Buffet buys a new car, and the dealership sneaks in a $200 document fee at the last minute, that dealership is behaving unethically and Warren Buffet has a right to complain about it.</p>
<p>And keep in mind that to a poor person in the Third World who makes $300 per year, a working class American who earns $50k per year may very well seem like your hypothetical $500k earner.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, you do realize there is not a strong LAC in the country that doesn't say tuition does not cover a student's full cost
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That may be true. And the LAC's might even be telling the truth, if you define "cost" to include everything they spend money on, no matter how unnecessary, extravagant, or frivolous.</p>
<p>Thank you for you kind words Zagat. I was thinking about what Calmom wrote. My parents certainly taught the can't afford lesson at a young age. And because their priority was to spend on education, I've often found myself in the midst of kids who have a lot more than I do materially and in terms of choice. </p>
<p>In HS I worked breaks and summers or went to free programs while friends traveled Europe or paid for "research and leadership" opportunities. The funny thing is, I wouldn't trade places looking back. In many ways, what I had to do got me a lot further than some of my peers with trust funds.</p>
<p>When it came to college, there was no way I would stress my parents who will have 3 tuitions to pay the year I start. When I got a large merit award at a school that ranks higher than the one I wanted to (and will), I struck the deal that I would be responsible for every cent more than taking that offer would have cost them. I've wanted to go to one college all of my life and it was worth it to me.</p>
<p>I though I'd graduate with a lot of debt even with the gap year but as luck would have it I ended up with a great job at a great time in the industry and my Xmas bonus was more than beyond my dreams. Bottom line is my bosses know where the money is going and wanted to help. They constantly comment their kids would rather slash their wrists than work the hours I do.</p>
<p>So anyone considering that route, I highly recommend it. You can couple a job with a few months of doing something for your heart (I volunteered in Indonisia and India for the first 3 months) and have a great year.</p>
<p>You can take it that I've been involved in high end product pricing and fairness was never one of the considerations.</p>
<p>The biggest legitimate complaint is that colleges charge far more in tuition than what is reasonably necessary. It doesn't matter how rich you are -- if you are getting ripped off, you are getting ripped off.
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/2007-01-12-college-tuition-usat_x.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/2007-01-12-college-tuition-usat_x.htm</a></p>
<p>Public schools are saying that tuition for instate students only covers 1/3 of costs.State subsidizes are not covering much either, which may contribute to schools looking for out of state students.</p>
<p>If we are actually being charged too much as you argue, are there any schools in the country that are charging the correct amount, and if not, what would be a fair price and what would that cover?</p>
<p>Actually...if anyone has legitimate reasons to complain about college...it isn't the person with 150k in income...it is the staff members at the college who get screamed at and cursed out because the 150k student only has a 2.0 GPA, low SAT/ACT scores, and no qualifications for merit scholarships and is only offered Federal and State Aid. As a Financial Aid Counselor....I can tell you we get cursed out quite a bit by students with income/EFC's like the OP.</p>
<p>I have seem many students like the OP....who are so far in debt they will be paying off student loans long after retirement. It is a sad state to see an adult whose student loan debt is 6 figures....working for 5 figures a year.</p>
<p>lskinner, as a Canadian, I think you'd be happier there.</p>
<p>Are doctors and hospitals ripping us off too?</p>
<p>
[quote]
If we are actually being charged too much as you argue, are there any schools in the country that are charging the correct amount,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and if not, what would be a fair price and what would that cover?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A fair price would depend on the school's own resources. Wealthy schools like Harvard or Stanford may very well be able to have zero tuition.</p>
<p>But anyway, I would estimate that a basic no frills education, including room and board, would cost about $15 to $20k per year. There would be no spiffy student center, just a basic old building from the 50s or 60s. No classes in some obscure language that only 2 people are taking. No campus women's center. No office of multicultural education. The sports teams wouldn't get new uniforms every year. There would be long lines for registration. etc. etc.</p>
<p>Oh, and no fireworks display for incoming freshmen (yes, when I started at Stanford, they had a freaking fireworks display for us. Talk about tuition dollars going up in smoke. I was furious.)</p>
<p>Assuming that about half that cost could be covered by the endowment and/or donations, that works out to tuition, room & board of $8-10k per year. I think that's fair.</p>
<p>And I wouldn't give anyone financial aid. A hypothetical poor student could easily make $5k per year by working part time and summers and borrow the rest. Total debt upon graduation would be about $20k. That's a monthly payment of about $220, which can be handled no problem with a basic entry level job.</p>