Should I do IB diploma or full AP?

Pre-College Issues High School Life
1

<p>Before responding, please read the whole post; I am asking which is better in my situation, not generically. I also have an additional question at the end.</p>

<p>I am a sophomore. My school has both the Advanced Placement (AP) and the International Baccalaureate (IB) programs. Whichever program I choose, I will take quite a few (10 or more) AP/IB classes (yes, I know that the typical CCer takes far more; here comes the ridicule). However, I have to choose whether to do the IB program and take 6 IB classes and ~4 AP classes, or do full AP and take ~10 AP classes and ~1 IB class (IB biology HL, which I will certainly take). This is becoming a really hard decision for me on which way to go, and I need some help. </p>

<p>Advantages of IB in my situation:</p>

<p>4 out of the 6 IB courses are pretty much the exact same course as some of the AP courses I want to take, or the one course, IB Biology HL, which I will take as IB no matter which path I go into. The three AP/IB courses are HL courses in IB. However, I hear that the AP students and the IB students do different things at times.</p>

<p>Going along with above, if I take the IB course version, I can still take the AP test, and will hopefully be prepared since the classes are nearly the same.</p>

<p>I might prefer doing the extended essay (EE) to my school’s new senior thesis format, which is rather weird and doesn’t seem that appealing to me. </p>

<p>My counselor will mark that I took the “most demanding” courseload.</p>

<p>Disadvantages of IB in my situation:</p>

<p>While 4 of my 6 courses (i. e. the HLs) will be the same as my AP courses, I would have to take two extra SL courses, which raises quite a few issues. First, my school does not have many course offerings in IB, especially when considering the SLs (see below about the experience factor). Second, of the courses they do offer, only one captures my interest; unfortunately, they are not even sure they will offer the course next year. Third, I probably will not get college credit for these courses. Fourth, despite my counselor’s recommendation above, from reading course descriptions, the existing SLs do not seem that rigorous at all, compared to APs. Finally, I would have to drop some AP courses that I would actually like to take, to make room in my schedule.</p>

<p>My second problem is whether the IB diploma is worth it, compared to the APs. IB seems to gain much worse credit at colleges in the United States than AP, which leads me to question whether colleges really prefer it at all. There is a slight possibility of me going international at some point in my life, although almost certainly not for undergraduate studies. I’m also worried that IB may look bad to colleges if I am going into math/science, as the IB diploma is a liberal arts diploma. I’m also concerned about lack of recognition, not only among colleges, but higher education and employment (I’ve heard that some still do ask to see the high school diploma). </p>

<p>Another problem is that my school has not had the IB program for very long, while I believe they have had the AP program for many years. Out of the people I have talked to who say that IB is very good, many, I find, are from schools which have had the program for a very long time and are experienced with its management. Also, as stated before, the school has meager IB course offerings, many of which don’t appeal to me.</p>

<p>Finally, my parents are against my doing the IB program; they see it as busywork, and they’re hinting that they won’t support the effort (i. e. paperwork, etc).</p>

<p>One last question: Even if I don’t do the IB diploma, should I take those four AP/IB courses with the IB label and take both the IB and AP exams? While, on one hand, it seems to maximize opportunity, I’m wondering whether it’s really worth it, considering that IB nearly always earns inferior credit at universities. Also, I’ve heard talk here on CC that colleges tend to look down upon taking many individual IB classes without getting the full diploma. </p>

<p>I would greatly appreciate constructive feedback/any suggestions, etc. Thanks in advance!</p>

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<p>I would suggest the AP program, because you can take more advanced classes, and more importantly, advanced classes in subjects that show your interest and you are best at. Also, you can get more college credit from AP classes. The full IB diploma is not necessary, and I find it very constricting. If you take the IB exam for a subject you do not need to take the AP exam.</p>

3

<p>Okay. I’m sorry, but I think you don’t understand the IB program at all. I don’t care what you think, but IB HL classes are much harder than AP, hence why you take the AP exam when you take those classes. IB SL classes are, generally, easier/equal to AP. Colleges don’t care whether or not you “like” a class. They tell you what you want and IB satisfies that. If you take straight AP, you get a very narrow thought process and don’t do any analysis. You reiterate what you learn and that’s it. In IB, you will be asked a question you’ve never seen before, but be able to manipulate the question to find the solution. Not doing IB is absolutely stupid. It teaches you to be a well-rounded student and gives you the ability to do college work MUCH BETTER than AP. I take both AP and IB classes. Trust me when I say that the assessments in IB are much closer to college assessments. It’s not just a test like AP. There are portfolios, dossiers, orals, papers, CAS, prescribed title, EE, etc. I feel like you’ll be passing up an opportunity that many kids wish they had. By the way, the colleges take both IB and AP equally in credit. If you look at the classes IB offers and AP offers, the colleges gives credit for the fundamental classes (except English) for the higher level courses. AP just have more “Americanized” courses. Just plan ahead if you want credit so badly. I’m retaking some credit next year in college even though I will have the credit from my IB COURSES.</p>

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<p>^The problem I see though is that is a generic solution, while I had specific problems to be addressed. On one side, the AP and IB HL classes are exactly the same in my school - both AP and IB kids sit together in the same class at the same time under the same teacher, and we do almost the same things. As for the SLs, what the school offers does not really have an AP equivalent or a college equivalent.</p>

<p>Also, when you talk about college credit, I see that you are going to Brown, a school that does seem to offer greater credit for IB than AP. Unfortunately, Brown seems to be the only school in that regard ([Anti</a> Corruption Republican: AP vs. IB](<a href=“http://anticorruptionrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/06/ap-vs-ib.html]Anti”>http://anticorruptionrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/06/ap-vs-ib.html) - under the category for greater IB credit, Brown is the only school listed). Therefore, I’m worried that your opinion does not reflect that of the vast majority of colleges, particularly the ones that I’m looking at.</p>

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<p>When I made the choice, I went with the program that would give me the most credit. It was strictly a financial decision, and I figured that since I’ve been taking college courses since freshman year, I could just replicate the work ethic and holistic understanding gained from an IB program.</p>

<p>You’ve stated far more disadvantages for taking IB than advantages. In the end, if you’ve always been a good student there’s not much of a difference between the two programs.</p>

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<p>I don’t think my response was very generic at all. Okay, I’ll say this a little more specifically. You’re first issue is the SL courses. Regardless to whether or not you take AP or IB, you will need to take an equivalent of the classes in either program. Colleges require some classes and “recommend” others. IB forces a well-rounded education that colleges want. AP supplies the classes for this well-rounded education. You will basically be required by top colleges of this education. Therefore, that shouldn’t be much of an issue. Your 2nd issue is the credit. Okay. You’re a sophomore. You have 3 years until you’re in college. Your junior year, college will be 2 years away. How much do you think you will remember in that time frame of your AP class?? Do you think that the subject will be fresh enough in your mind that you will take all the credit you earn as well as score well enough on all the APs to get the credit? IB will teach you better skills, whether or not you get the credit from them. The hell you go through sucks at the time, but is definitely worth it. </p>

<p>Yes, I am going to Brown. However, you still gain a lot of credit through IB. There are some classes that you won’t take in college, except for introductory freshmen classes. Therefore, the SL classes that you probably WON’T get credit for will most likely will be classes you need to take again or don’t have to take again. If you take the AP class, which is in between SL and HL, you will be expected to be very good at that subject. I think the subjects you would take SL is important. If english is one of them, a very small amount of top colleges accept AP English and/or IB English HL credit. If history is the other, check to see what you need on the AP exam to get credit. Most of history AP credits are given strictly for 5s on the AP exam. I’m sorry, but no one can guarrentee all 5s, especially on subjects you don’t like.</p>

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<p>I hold the opinion that IB is most beneficial in the way classes are taught. The philosophical questions posed and the essays you have to write encourage you to think in a manner that will be very useful in the years after high school. IB is not the best program for gaining college credit, and if this is solely what you seek then you have two options:

  1. Do AP instead.
  2. Do IB, test well in your HL courses, and take the AP equivalents in your SL courses.
    Neither is a bad option. I chose option 2, and it’s working for me quite well.</p>

<p>I don’t know how your school works, but at mine there is no concern for colleges looking down upon a prospective math/science major because he/she underwent the IB programme which is a liberal arts diploma. There are many opportunities for multiple science courses by utilizing group 6 options, and several students pursue dual enrollment math opportunities. Moreover, colleges don’t want to see all math/science geeks; I have promoted myself as a math/science student who seeks an academic balance through the IB program.</p>

<p>I also would not worry about lack of recognition. Those that will care about your high school diploma - and trust me, depending on your field of study, if you’re talking about potential employers, most won’t - will know what IB is.</p>

<p>If I were in your shoes, I would choose IB - it seems that many of your disadvantages are not disadvantages but rather misunderstandings about the IB program. However, I’m not in your shoes and I don’t know how your school works, what you intend to do with your life, etc. Also, please don’t make a decision based on what your parents want or don’t want.</p>

<p>If you do choose AP, I don’t see any purpose in taking the IB exams. The way I see it, you do IB for the classes and for the whole experience it entails, and you take AP exams for college credit (especially in your SL course equivalents).</p>

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<p>The fact remains that IB credit is much harder to come by (this coming from an IB student who loves the program–well, most of the time). </p>

<p>However, in this situation, it seems like AP is the best way to go (though you’ll be taking a smattering of classes of your choice, so it’s not the “AP Program”). As a science and math student, you’ll have the opportunity to pursue classes more individualized to your interests. For example, Math Methods is the equivalent of Calc AB; with AP, you can take Calc BC as well as math electives like stats. You can also take multiple sciences, which is possible with IB but more easily without balancing the endless requirements of IB. IB is also more focused on critical thinking (versus facts), which is something I’ve found attractive as a humanities student, but you might prefer a more to-the-point curriculum.</p>

<p>Now, some of your disadvantages are certainly misconceptions. Your parents see busywork, whereas in actuality, IB just has more requirements to meet (Internal Assessments, Orals, papers, CAS, EE), but none are useless or things you can complete mindlessly. However, if you really want to pursue science and math ECs, AP will likely allow you more time. </p>

<p>And to add my two cents on the HL/SL/AP debate, generally, HL is considered a little more difficult than AP classes (which is why you can take the AP tests for these classes) while SL is considered slightly less difficult. However, be wary of comparing AP to IB across the board, as they’re different curriculums that only occasionally overlap. You would have to study outside of class before taking AP tests should you choose the IB route, making it more questionable whether you’ll garner the college credit you clearly crave.</p>

<p>Quick question: Why would you take Bio HL regardless? That might look strange on your transcript if you go the AP route.</p>

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<p>Swim2daend: </p>

<p>In this case, the SLs are not equivalent to the APs; my school does not much offer much in the way of SLs, and many of those subjects don’t coincide with APs at all (e. g. philosophy). The issue is that I only have a limited number of periods, and I have APs planned in the spaces where I would need two more SLs. The APs in question interest me; the SLs do not. I should clarify that they would teach different fields.</p>

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</p>

<p>I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Also, could you please clarify what “skills” these are that would be lacking in the AP versions?</p>

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</p>

<p>Unfortunately, that’s not the case; again, my school does not offer many SLs, and the ones they do offer and I’m eligible for (philosophy, etc) aren’t really courses I would repeat in college. Sorry, should have clarified that.</p>

<p>Secret Asian Man:</p>

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</p>

<p>I have to listen somewhat, as they have to sign paperwork for me to be in, which they aren’t too keen on doing right now.</p>

<p>glassesarechic:</p>

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</p>

<p>In my case, the HL and the AP classes are the exact same class taught by the same teacher at the same time with almost the same things. (except for biology; see below)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>In my school, many AP route students end up taking biology HL regardless; it’s widely known to be more rigorous than the AP biology course in my school.</p>

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<p>Since it seems that AP/IB are essentially the same classes at your school (at least for HL) it seems the only differences are a) the extra requirements for an IB diploma and b) the restrictions on the classes you can take if you do IB. Can I ask what your 4 HLs and 2 SLs would be were you to do the IB program?</p>

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<p>The 4 HLs would be English, A2 language, math methods, and biology.</p>

<p>The 2 SLs are what I’m not even sure about. The only possibilities for me are:</p>

<p>Environmental systems (not sure if eligible, but would be interested)
A2 language ab initio
Music (all three options)
Philosophy
Physics (I’m taking AP physics C, which is more rigorous)</p>

<p>Except for environmental studies (which, again, I’m not sure I’m eligible for), I’m not interested in the above courses.</p>

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<p>I was too lazy to read alot of the other comments, but I am an IB student right now (first year), and my school is similar in that many classes are AP/IB, so we have both students in the classes, and IB students can take both exams if we want.</p>

<p>It seems that, in your situation, you should go with an AP courseload. It seems that your not completely interested in some of the IB courses, and if your not, it’ll be difficult because of all the extra work required. For SL bio, for example, we had to design our own labs and do a write up. I thought this was fun, because I enjoy bio alot. However, some of my friends did not enjoy it nearly as much, and so it was just extra work.</p>

<p>In terms of college credit, you’re right. It is much harder to get a 6/7 in IB than a 5 in AP, and colleges don’t take this into account when deciding credit. However, I do think that colleges appreciate the IB system, because it ensures that you have good writing skills, study skills, and are an independent thinker. I think California (I’m not sure exactly which state) gives in-state scholarships to IB graduates, because they are prepared and will do well in college. Princeton also really likes IB students, and I’m inclined to think many other colleges do.</p>

<p>IB also prepares you well for college. It is an immense work load (at least at my school), but you learn to handle it all. We get more independence with lunch sign out, and special privileges as a result, which are also nice. I also like IB because it is open-ended. You won’t see any multiple choice, but rather, short answer and essay questions. The Theory of Knowledge class is also really mind-opening. I have learned so much about myself in that class. It may be due to an amazing teacher, however. </p>

<p>In terms of math/science focus, I don’t think it will hurt your apps at all. You can always choose math/science higher levels, as you are doing. I also think that, at this point in our education, we shouldn’t limit ourselves. It is good to get a liberal arts education in high school, to fully expose yourself to opportunities before settling for on. You need to be well rounded. CAS requirements also help the well-roundedness. </p>

<p>I also feel that AP classes are harder. There seems to be more busywork, ALOT of memorization (at least history), and less discussion and personal interpretation. IB encourages discussion. In history, in particular, our classes consist more of discussions than rote memorization, like I had in my AP Euro class last year.</p>

<p>I feel like I’ve been supporting IB in my posts- I am biased because I really like the program, and so I’m contradicting myself haha. But I would ask to see how many of your school’s IB candidates receive their IB diploma, and how their scores compare to their predicted scores. If most do, and your bright, you’ll probably do as expected too. Some new schools, however, still have to figure out how IB grades, which may cause problems. You don’t want to do IB if it results in a low score, simply because of an inexperienced school. </p>

<p>So…I think I’ve presented both sides of the case. Hopefully, this will help with your decision a little :)</p>

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<p>Math methods is SL, not HL, so I’m a big confused - the three math options are HL Math, SL Math Methods, and SL Math Studies (well, and SL Further Math but ignore that).</p>

<p>Anyway, I do see what you mean - you’re extremely limited. For IB you need one course in each of the six subject areas:
Group 1 - English HL
Group 2 - Language A2 HL
Group 3 -
Group 4 - Biology HL
Group 5 - Math HL?
Group 6 - </p>

<p>Group 3 is essentially humanities. Does your school not offer any other Group 3 courses other than Philosophy? Or are they HLs that you don’t want to take.</p>

<p>Group 6 is electives; so you can put in any of the other courses. One option is to use Physics - you take the AP Physics C course and then test in AP Physics C and IB Physics SL. That way you get a rigorous course, your IB diploma, and college credit. You would need to talk to your counselors and see if they let you do this.</p>

<p>My experience with IB has been extremely positive and I truly believe that it is the best option to prepare students for college; as such I highly recommend it to everybody that is trying to decide between AP and IB. I still recommend it to you, but the classes your school offers and the classes you desire to take/are willing to take may be too divergent for it to work for you. Perhaps then AP is the better route.</p>

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<p>

I suppose this depends on your interpretation and definition of the word “harder.” AP entails more memorization and has more difficult tests (in some subjects anyway); you will spend much of your time studying. IB entails more discussion and easier tests; however, you will spend A LOT of time writing papers. Depends on the type of student that you are.</p>

<p>I do agree with the general sentiment that an HL class is more difficult than an AP class and an SL class is slightly easier. I feel that IB is more difficult overall (somebody who does full IB vs. full AP).</p>

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<p>I think the general consensus is that, though the posters here are IB students who appreciate/love the experience, AP may be best for you. Your school has less separation between IB and AP than most have, so taking AP allows you to take similarly (or, in your case, identically) rigorous classes, take the AP exams for credit, avoid the humanities HL classes that you don’t seem interested in (same with the electives/SL that you’re having so much trouble with), and avoid the requirements of IB outside of class (EE, CAS). </p>

<p>Perhaps your school is not very adept at handling the IB program. I say this because you seem to be confused on some accounts–Math Methods is the harder SL track, but SL all the same; the holes in your Group 3; the misconception that IB is busywork (I know this is your parents, but why has this rumor not been wholeheartedly dispelled by your GC/IB coordinator?); and the general disorganization I sense from your school’s IB administration (my school gives several information sessions on IB, starting in middle school). For this reason alone, AP may be a better option. Though I’m a big fan of the IB program, it needs to be established for a bit to hit its stride and schools need to embrace the IB philosophy for the program to reach its full potential. Your school seems reluctant to distinguish between the IB and AP curricula, which leads me to think that your school may put more energy into AP.</p>

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<p>First of all, sorry if I used the wrong IB math terminology: I have never actually seen the school use the phrase “math methods”; there is an IB math studies SL, an IB math SL, and an IB math HL. Since you called it “math methods”, I assumed it meant both the SL and HL. Just to clarify, I do mean Math HL.</p>

<p>nith901: Unfortunately, my school refuses to disclose the IB scores (I asked). I’ve tried to find out indirectly, and I think I have a good (if slightly outdated) idea of what the scores end up being.</p>

<p>Secret Asian Man: Yes, unfortunately, I haven’t found another suitable group 3 course.
We do have a history HL, but I cannot add another HL. IB Economics SL used to exist, but it seems to have been dropped from the course offerings. There is another course, but the school seems to be uncertain whether it will end up happening (they do not currently offer the course). Also, unlike the other IB classes, AP physics C is not the same class as IB physics SL, and I am dead set on taking AP physics C. </p>

<p>Keep these posts coming; I’m learning quite a lot!</p>

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<p>Ya. Though I’m an IB advocate, your heart seems to have already chosen AP. :slight_smile: I wish much luck in your remaining years in high school. Btw, nothing of what I said was meant to be offensive if it came off as tht.</p>

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<p>None taken :)</p>

<p>It’s like this; before high school, I thought that I would for sure do the IB diploma. Yet, now that I’m here, I start to see that it maybe isn’t the best option; it’s not an IB happy land where there are tons of courses to choose from. Therefore, I’m still trying to decide if it’s still worth it, versus just doing full AP. I’ve had cousins, friends, etc do IB before me, and I’ve had some do AP, and my experiences aren’t quite matching up to theirs. That’s why I presented my specific problems; without them, the decision might be easier ;). As for the credit thing, one reason for considering IB was that I was considering going to an international university after high school; however, that seems to no longer be the case.</p>

<p>However, I would still like more input from others.</p>

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<p>bump 10char</p>

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<p>I’m too lazy to read most of the comments to your post… however, I agree with others in that you don’t appear to understand the IB program at all.</p>

<p>As an IB student who has taken more than 10 AP classes, IB is definitely the most beneficial program. It develops you as an international student, a lateral thinker, a well rounded global citizen. The courses are difficult, challenging, yet enriching and entirely doable, they give you a greater appreciation for knowledge and how you come by knowledge than AP classes which essentially test your ability to memorize details you’ll no doubt forget once the year is over. </p>

<p>Also, even though IB and AP curriculums diverge, you can take the AP exam and earn credit for doing well on it for virtually any IB course you take, however, you may have to study a bit for the extensive nature of the exams. </p>

<p>I agree a lot with glasses, if the philosophy of IB is embraced, the program is brilliant.</p>