Should I transfer to UCLA?

I’m currently a junior at a CSUN, because I fooled around in high school. At first, I thought that if I kept my head up and made better choices than I did in high school, I would have no problem getting into a good grad school. Here’s the problem, however. I’ve been hearing that employers and grad schools care more about the school than your grades (a B at UCLA is worth more than an A at CSUN). To me this makes no sense, because where you go to for undergrad is based on how you did in how school. It seems absurd that when applying to grad schools, I could be judged for choices I made 4+ years ago. And I was also under the impression that just because a school is tougher to get into doesn’t mean that it’s tougher to graduate from and get A’s in. In fact, studies have shown that the tougher it is to get accepted into the college, the higher the gpa’s and graduation rates.

My question is this. Would it be better if I applied to UCLA as a junior, and graduated in 2018 instead of 2017? I really don’t want to do an extra year of college and graduate at 23 if I don’t have to.

Read more: http://pandce.proboards.com/thread/510472/transfer-csun-ucla#ixzz3ymsemsbE

You don’t say what your major is. Specifically in STEM fields, your academic record is more important than the school you attend (within reason). If you are really determined to go to graduate school, then do all the right things to make your application a good one. Get involved in research, develop good letters of recommendation by impressing your professors and get good grades in the most challenging curriculum available to you at your school. Plenty of students from CSUs go to good graduate programs. There is no need to transfer and spend an extra year in college when you plan to continue for a graduate degree. Getting a lot of A’s at your school and taking the toughest courses in your major will certainly be better than getting B’s in the same courses at UCLA.

The choice is yours. Nobody other than you can make the decision.

Yes, when you apply to graduate school, the name of your school does have an impact. But a poor GPA at a top school is not necessarily better than a great GPA at a school nobody has even heard of. When you say “a B at UCLA is worth more than an A at CSUN”, it really depends on the situation. I would say that in cases where it is either you have some B’s but otherwise A’s at UCLA versus straight A’s at CSUN, then UCLA is more favorable. However, in cases where it is either you have all B’s or below at UCLA versus straight A’s at CSUN, then CSUN is more favorable.

That’s patently false, and I’m not sure where you’re hearing that from.

Your grades are far more important than where you went to school. It’s not that your undergrad doesn’t matter at all - it does - but it typically only matters in the upward direction. In other words, while coming from a highly regarded department at UCLA might be an advantage, going to CSU-Northridge won’t be a disadvantage at all. I had some colleagues in graduate school who came from Cal State campuses. An acquaintance of mine actually went to CSUN for undergrad, went to a great PhD program in my field, completed her clinical internship at Yale and is currently doing a postdoc at UCSF (one of the top schools in my area).

If you like CSUN and you are happy and thriving there, don’t transfer because you think it’s going to make a difference. You can still get into an excellent graduate school with a degree from CSUN.

besides GPA, the other critical thing to have on your resume is Research, and the question is whether you have the ability to enter into meaningful research at CalState. (UCLA undoubtedly has more opportunities, but also a lot more folks gunning for those slots.)

You won’t be, but recognize that the student from UCLA with A’s in the major will almost always score an interview before you will (other things being equal).

But agree with the others…no need to extend a year of expense just to transfer. Instead, use that year to gain more research experience.

Ehhh, depends on that UCLA student’s other pieces. A Cal State student with a good GPA (let’s say a 3.5), lots of research experience, a publication in an undergraduate journal and clarity in their goals and interests will be a lot more appealing to professors than a UCLA student with a 3.8 but little research experience and ambiguous interests and research goals. Personally if a GPA is a 3.5+ I don’t even look at it further or judge any differences.

All other things are almost never equal. Graduate admissions truly are holistic in this sense - it’s all about balance. Yes, they have one advantage in their undergrad department, but you may have other advantages they don’t have.

It depends on the field. Some fields seem to be more concerned about undergraduate pedigree than others.

A UC Riverside Professor of Philosophy had a blog post on this topic a few years ago:

“Sorry, Cal State Students, No Princeton Grad School for You!”

“it seems to be extremely difficult to gain admission to an elite PhD program in philosophy if you’re not from an elite undergraduate institution.”

http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2011/10/sorry-cal-state-students-no-princeton.html

^The problem with this is that it’s combining two errors: that correlation = causation and the ecological fallacy.

  1. **Correlation =/= Causation**. Yes, attendance at elite schools is correlated with acceptance (or at least attendance) to elite programs. But that could be for a variety of reasons. It could be, for instance, that students from elite undergrads are simply more likely to get accepted.

It could also be that students from elite programs are simply more interested in graduate school in the first place, and more likely to apply. This makes sense for a variety of reasons: They tend to come from wealthier backgrounds and can afford the undertaking of graduate school. (Yes, I do know that PhD porgrams are funded, but they still often require at least a minimal outlay of money.) Since they come from wealthier backgrounds, they are also more likely to have had family members who have attended graduate school, or family friends who are professors or whatnot, and thus more likely to have been exposed to the idea of going to graduate school. They thus may have a clearer idea of what graduate school actually entails.

In addition, professors at those elite schools may be more likely to assume that their students will want to or be interested in attending graduate school, and mention it more often. This may have the effect of making those students more interested or at least more aware of the possibility of attending graduate school. And let’s face it: the students who go to elite schools are the ones who are on average more interested in school in general anyway. They’d have to be, right? They were at the top of their classes in high school, and probably were nerdy academics their entire lives in some shape or another. Then they go to a school full of OTHER elite nerds who were also at the top of their classes in high school, and they talk about their philosophical ideas and scientific interests and big plans to take over the planet (in some way, shape, or form) with each other for four years. Of COURSE they are more interested in school, so maybe they are also more likely to apply to graduate school.

And even when the student from Regional State U applies to graduate school, maybe they are less likely to even apply to a top graduate program - because they believe that they can’t get in, or they believe that only students from UCLA and Stanford go to top programs. So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Your average working-class student from Regional State U is not necessarily interested in getting a PhD. The students who are attracted to and attend regional state universities tend to be less well-off, and attend college often with more vocational goals in mind. Maybe they have student loan debt and do not realize that PhD programs are funded, or they want to work right away to support families they have, or they were never really into school in the first place (because of a variety of OTHER reasons) and just want to start working.

  1. **Ecological fallacy**. The ecological fallacy is "a logical fallacy in the interpretation of statistical data where inferences about the nature of individuals are deduced from inference for the group to which those individuals belong."

In other words, you say that “because this generally happens in Group X it must also the case that this will happen to Specific Person X1 within Group X.”

It may be true that generally - for example - CSU-Northridge students don’t get into the PhD program at Stanford. But - particularly since we don’t know why that happens - we cannot say whether or not any specific CSU-Northridge student’s chances are higher or lower than a UCLA or UCSB student’s chances of getting in. It all depends on a variety of complex factors.

And again, I’m not saying that elite school origination doesn’t make a difference in admissions. I suspect it does. Professors are humans who have their own biases and beliefs. If the question is whether it matters, it probably does - but if the question is whether it matters enough to compel an individual student to uproot their life to transfer schools, including spending an entire additional year in college (and the concomitant tuition money)? I’d say probably not.

Graduate admissions does depend on a complex variety of factors but the new book “Inside Graduate Admissions” by Julie Posselt documented that elite school origination does make a difference in graduate admissions to top programs. Dr. Posselt observed the inner workings of graduate admissions committees. The two strongest predictors of admissions to elite graduate programs are attending a highly selective college or university and very high GRE scores.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/06/new-book-reveals-how-elite-phd-admissions-committees-review-candidates

I’m not encouraging any individual student to transfer. In addition, most graduate admissions committees do not put much emphasis on the name of the undergraduate school but this new book does say some top graduate programs are biased toward certain undergraduate schools.

I’m in the middle of the book now and while it’s clear from the research Posselt did that elite school origin does matter somewhat in admissions, I have yet to see any support for the statement that it’s one of the strongest predictors. Maybe it comes in later chapters.

As a side note, I just want to note that the passage about the Christian college student is very selectively quoted. Posselt gives a fuller description of the conversation in the book and it’s not quite as one-sided as it seems from the excerpts IHE quotes. They deliberately left out the quotes from faculty who had opposing views in the argument - yes, I know they spent one sentence noting it in the article, but it’s still weird that they selected around those statements when they were made in direct response to the really bad statements they did quote. For example, they did spend more time discussing the students’ background - but that was directly because of the college she attended, and it was actually brought up by the faculty defending her. They were trying to point out that her application was far more well-rounded than just the college she went to.

It wasn’t a shining moment of positivity for the academy, but still.