<p>^ We are all entitled to our political perspectives 
Colorado Springs has a notably conservative local culture and it was a tongue in cheek way of pointing that out. </p>
<p>For all I know, Rocket could have conservative leanings and would find Colorado Springs a plus from her perspective.</p>
<p>You don’t like me. Duly noted. Let’s let the thread return to its purpose.</p>
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<p>I am not sure if you didn’t understand me or I am not understanding you, but my point was I could support a decision by a parent (and it is totally just me, obviously other parents can do what they want) to not pay thousands of dollars towards a college education for their kid if they are fairly sure the kid is going to waste it by irresponsible behavior. What label you want to put on that kid’s behavior (irresponsible, reprehensible, stupid, ignorant, dangerous) is not particularly my point. Absent these kinds of behaviors, I think in American society in the 2000’s parents have an ethical obligation to support their children’s college plans financially to the extent they can. Legally of course they do not have to. If they are not going to pay, i.e. they think once the kid hits 18 that’s it their job is done, then they have the obligation to make sure the child understands this and prepares themselves as early and as much as possible. Obviously most 12 year olds wouldn’t really have a clue as to the impact of what those parents are telling them, but they at least need to try and prepare their child.</p>
<p>Read through the first few pages. Do not have time to read through 22. Has this been proposed?</p>
<p>For us, an FA family, merit has always reduced “need.” (Even for private high school when merit was awarded at entrance.)</p>
<p>Personally I think of merit in the context of academics not as entitlement but definitely as reward. I understand the psychological effect previous posters have discussed, regarding the problem of eliminating both the perception and reality of a “performance bonus” (to put it in job performance terms). Here’s my suggestion: When merit is awarded at entrance, and/or subsequent college years (if ever) for continued performance, it becomes a separate unutilized gift applying only to loan aid, until that student graduates. </p>
<p>Many colleges are 100% loan when they offer “FA;” but even “no loan” colleges become effectively “some loan”/tiny loan" when the “personal needs” parts of the package (travel, books, toiletries, recreation) are not fully covered by that portion – including with a max of 10 hrs./week work-study jobs. Those do, often, become loans, accrued during the 4 years. Another factor that can unexpectedly cause a loan situation even for Ivies, etc., is a sudden summer opportunity on/near campus, requiring summer residency, which is definitely not covered by the 4-year academic-year-only package.</p>
<p>I don’t know what vehicle would be used (the college, the merit-granting foundation, etc.), but there should be a vehicle that retains the original & any subsequent merit awards to reward the student on a more true and permanent basis for high school performance & anything subsequent, when the undergraduate experience expires (upon graduation or upon indeterminate withdrawal). So whether the loan aspects are $2,000, $5,000, or $40,000+, the original and any later merit award can then be applied to pay down, or off, the loan.</p>
<p>Is this too unworkable? Or is this an excellent marketing opportunity? (Or already suggested?) :(</p>
<p>clueless</p>
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<p>And there is a political forum to spew your venom and politics. No need to inject your hatred toward’s conservatives and the miliitary here</p>
<p>clarification on my post 323 above: suggestion of deferment of merit $ applied to COA refers to FA families. Obviously full-pay students would not be in a position to have anything “held,” because need is not a factor.</p>
<p>One additional thought on searching for colleges that provide good aid, whether merit-based or need-based: The total cost of attending a college includes not only direct costs (tuition, room and board, fees) but also indirect costs (travel, books and supplies, personal expenses, etc.) Travel costs can mount up when a student attends a college across the country. Families searching for good aid prospects should take the cost of travel into account when developing a picture of the total cost of enrollment. Some colleges may include a travel allowance in the aid package. Again, it’s critical to raise the issue with the financial aid office.</p>
<p>^wjb, that’s partly what my own post 323 referred to. The travel portion of the grant aid at “FA-rich” schools rarely covers needs for those significantly far away, which forces loans to go into effect. (Any additional travel funds are not loaned by the college, but the family is forking over travel, vs. other personal costs, which themselves can be loaned.) The personal portion of the aid package is usually a formula standard amount, which does not vary per student location. Just the student’s tough luck. :)</p>
<p>I just do understand the desire of a family and a student for actual cash recognition for outstanding performance as a separate feature, and I’m trying to find a way that recognizes that, while not providing an FA student a cash bonus in excess of COA. This also doesn’t impact a full-pay student, who can use his/her own cash bonus, if acquired through academic merit, immediately.</p>
<p>berryberry, I think clueless was just poking fun at what is for all practical purposes and has been for decades a college known for attracting pretty liberal folk plunked into the middle of what is known nationally as an arch-conservative town…there is a certain irony there if you step back and think about it.</p>
<p>^ Epiphany, thats a new and interesting thought, but it doesn’t appear colleges have a desire to design their merit awards that way for FA families.</p>
<p>What has emerged in this lengthy thread is that colleges by and large use merit awards as full-pay tuition discounting and substituting the TYPE of FA awarded in the case of need.</p>
<p>So, traps for the unwary for FA families who may be initially excited about “merit awards” when they grasp how those “merit awards” have no effect on their out-of-pocket at full need schools.</p>
<p>^^ Thanks mom3, I was attempting humor, but I guess one person’s humor is another’s venom. I’ll cross comedian off the list of my potential alternative career choices.</p>
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<p>Right. But there’s nothing to prevent them from coming up with creative alternatives in a competitive environment marked by one-up-manship, of which advertised FA is a huge factor. Ivies offering no-loan aid and gap aid found themselves quickly surrounded by copycats as soon as those other colleges found a way to match that. FA is part of the marketing package.</p>
<p>^ Well said. I think colleges could learn a lot about program design tweaks and disclosure best practices if they read these “focus group” posts!</p>
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Now I see that your statement could be taken two ways. I took it in the way that sybbie replied to it (parent’s reprehensible behavior). </p>
<p>I agree with your (now clarified) meaning, which was about reprehensible behavior on the part of the wannabe college student.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys</p>
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<p>No - I believe Clueless was showing his true colors and feelings. All you need to do is follow his other comments. That said, even if it was a really poor attempt at humor, it was and remains an inappropriate vile statement showing a lack of tolerance towards others and has no place in this forum</p>
<p>clueless-I am a liberal, which is why I ruled out Colorado college…I might be tempted to kill Pat Robertson</p>
<p>berryberry-would you please quit provoking everyone…this thread was finally getting civil til you popped your head back in.</p>
<p>rocket6louise</p>
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<li><p>This is an interment message board - everyone is free hear to express their opinion whether you like it or not.</p></li>
<li><p>Making a statement you disagree with is not provacation - rather it is simply stating facts or my opinion. I have provided some cogent analysis and explanations on this thread about exactly why one’s EFC is not reduced by merit aid. You don’t like the fact that it is and would prefer to talk about how unfair this is to you. Thats not my problem. I am addressing the topic of the thread which is should merit aid reduce need based aid. It should and does in nearly every college in this country. Why there is continued debate over this simple fact amazes me.</p></li>
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How tolerant of you</p></li>
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<p>Because berryberry things are not black and white in this world. You do see things sometimes as one way or another way with no in between and you do tend to poke …if others want to continue the discussion and dissection that is fine and generally people just leave the thread if they tire of the back and forth. People do say things in humor sometimes and generally people just “blow over it” but sometimes you take it as a personal attack or an attack against your personal belief structure or their feelings as “invalid” instead of taking it at face value. We all have moments where another poster ruffles our feathers and we either take the time to try to put a thoughtful reply together or we just ignore it. Discussion generally means back and forth until a concensus is reached or the discussion dies out. Some discussions are settled or die in 3 posts and some in 30 pages. Some are actually a Socratic diaglogue with no apparent conclusion. I’m not sure why you find this amazing, it’s actually quite common.</p>
<p>I think that Clueless has a point about how colleges describe the “non-stacking” of merit scholarships. A lot of the parents who are taking him to task are coming from the standpoint of already understanding how most (if not all but Colo C) work. When you look at the description of how the college treats merit scholarships and you already have an expectation that merit scholarship will not stack, it is easy to read. If your expectation (because of lack of experience with the system) is that the colleges will stack merit scholarships, then reading the colleges’ descriptions may not really help. I am a lawyer and most of the explanations that I have read seem unnecessarily obtuse, when they could simply say that merit scholarships will reduce the amout of need based aid. Which part of the need based aid is reduced first could then be explained.</p>
<p>At first blush, Swarthmore looked like you could stack merit scholarships (at least $500 and then one-half of the balance). In fact, Swarthmore is worse than many colleges because they reduce the grant based aid with the first $500 and then reduce the student loan and work/study portion by only 50% of the remaining merit scholarship, using the other 50% to reduce the grant based aid.</p>
<p>I went to two scholarship weekends with my son and both were done by the schools for the purpose of “poaching” scholars from top tier schools. At least one of the schools admitted it. Most of the talk was about how much money they were offering, but I do not recall <em>any</em> mention of the scholarships reducing any need aid. Realize that such a discussion would be counter-productive to the school if they are trying to recruit scholars. These kids were in the top 3% of all of their applicants and I would bet that all of them got into at least one Top 15 school. At one of the schools the scholarship provided for free room and board, but it required a parent asking the question to make it clear that “free room and board” meant that you had to live in the dorms in order to receive it.</p>
<p>Personally, I think that Colorado College has the best idea. Merit (or “poaching”) scholarships reduce need based aid, but outside scholarships reduce EFC (but to no less than $0). I would think that even reducing EFC by 50% would be great because it recognizes that outside scholarships generally require some work or achievement on the part of the student. Think of it this way - if the kid won the money on a game show that money would be considered an asset under FAFSA, but would only effect EFC by 20% of the value.</p>
<p>momofthreebuys - but in this case it is indeed black and white. Ask nearly any college in the country whether merit aid reduces EFC (or can be stacked with need based aid) and the answer will be the same - no. If the facts are different, please present them. However, you know I am correct.</p>
<p>Now whether someone likes this or not or believes it is unfair is their choice and not my problem but the facts are indeed clear (both by the practies of nearly every college in the country as well as the definition of need based aid itself) and really people trying to continue to debate the facts are being disingenuous</p>
<p>Now, as to the issue of their opinion that this is unfair - well they can certainly post about that as much as they like but they should expect to be rebutted and “poked” at for their misguided beliefs</p>
<p>Hat</p>
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<p>Did you or anyone ask the simple question. Again, my point about making false assumptions vs. doing one’s homework and asking the question</p>
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<p>Again, this seems to be a case of making a false assumption. Seems like real common sense to me that if a college is providing free room and board you would have to live on campus to receive it. But even someone with no common sense should be smart enough to ask the question</p>