<p>
</p>
<p>Stating your opinion is one thing; making it clear that you believe you are 100% right and anyone who disagrees is a total moron worthy of your distain is something else.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly! Why is that so hard?</p>
<p>I’ve stayed out of this but finally broke down.</p>
<p>I consider myself a highly educated intelligent parent, but I also misunderstood the interaction between merit and need aid until it would have been too late to influence application plans for my child. In our case it worked out well, but we were lucky. I do not think any college does a good job explaining this and I think the popular press is, to put it kindly, misleading.</p>
<p>As for assuming “free room and board” only applies if you are on campus, I know many cases where the student receives a cash disbursement to cover off-campus housing/food if they do not live on campus and a parent/child could easily misunderstand that all colleges follow the same policy.</p>
<p>As always the best approach is to ask lots of questions, but that only works IF you know what to ask. Hence the call for transparency and even better a Q&A section on each college’s site where specific (yet amazingly common) misunderstandings could be addressed.</p>
<p>
But merit awards DO have an effect on out-of-pocket! EFC is far from the total out-of-pocket cost, as most families consider loans and workstudy to also be “out-of-pocket,” and those are routinely packaged to fill need.</p>
<p>A call for transparency is of course admirable and I hope colleges do so; but I don’t think it’s necessarily a “trap” if they do not, any more than the concept of different colleges calculating different EFCs for the same family.</p>
<p>I’ll agree completely and utterly with with MSmom&dad. The spouse and I are also HEIPs who didn’t have a clue about the myriad workings of merit and need aid, along with many many many other pieces of the puzzle. Trying to figure out what questions need to be asked when you never even thought of them as questions that needed to be considered is a huge, nontrivial undertaking. CC is a wonderful resource, but just how many people find their way here? How many parents run an EFC calculator prior to filing the FAFSA, let alone years in advance? Kudos to all of the parents that do so, but when you see how many CC-reading parents are confused by this stuff, it tells me that there’s a fundamental lack of understanding that’s not just the fault of the parents and the students making false assumptions or not doing homework.</p>
<p>An anecdote: a few years back we had a transaction that made us eligible for a federal tax credit of several thousand dollars. Then we found out (along with lots of other unhappy people) that you only got the credit if your Alternative Minimum Tax came out much lower than your regularly calculated income tax, even if you didn’t need to pay AMT. We’d have made this particular transaction anyway, but suddenly it cost us a heck of a lot more than we’d expected. This same goof caught a lot of people (and was eventually changed by the federal government so that now even if you pay AMT you get this credit for this transaction). None of us had the slightest idea that this was going to be in any way an issue for getting the tax credit. There was no reason for people to think it was going to be an issue. Many financial professionals were blindsided by this as well. </p>
<p>That’s pretty much what college financial info is like for the vast majority of people.</p>
<p>^ true Keil, but for many families the key out-of-pocket is “OK what is the check I need to come up with so my kid doesn’t get disenrolled”</p>
<p>There remains all sorts of value in merit aid to FA families, but the above is the gut check.</p>
<p>It is easy for posters on this site to assume sophisticated parents. But recall that these are CONSUMER transactions and, yes, there are very worthy kids whose parents may not be college educated, or may be among the many who get screwed when they walk from the dealer showroom to the dealer finance office. Why is it controversial to ask that colleges act with high ethics in their merit aid disclosures rather than sharp dealing in their poaching pitches?</p>
<p>Colleges do no wrong? Hmmmm, how long ago was it that the Ivies were colluding in violation of antitrust laws to restrain aid package awards?</p>
<p>And this thread has not been about claims of entitlement to any type of scholarship aid – just upfront disclosure of terms.</p>
<p>stevensmama</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>First off, it is disdain.</p>
<p>Second - do you dispute the facts here that at virtually every college in this country merit based aid does not reduce EFC? Because if you do, please post the evidence - or I am 100% right</p>
<p>Third - I think those who chose to play deaf, dumb and blind and make false assumptions rather than asking the simple question are indeed worthy of disdain. Whether they are morons depends on the individual. they could simply be misguided, naive, unsophisticated, etc. But here is the important point - if you don’t know something - ASK, don’t ASSUME.</p>
<p>It says something that Keilelexandra - a HS student knows more about the facts of this subject than many adults posting here</p>
<p>I’ve just discovered the ignore feature on this site :)</p>
<p>It’s a pretty cool tool to remove the stain of someone who treats you with disdain. ;)</p>
<p>Berry, I’m quite confident that Hat, if a litigator, would light up like a Christmas tree if he had the opportunity to take you to the cleaners on the other side of a case. Jury trial all the way, baby!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think this actually proves the point berryberry and I have been trying to make as well as anything posted. How many people would try and undertake a complex transaction that has nuanced tax ramifications like this one without consulting with a tax lawyer or CPA? And if they do and it turns out they completely blew it, how many of us wouldn’t think they were stupid for not asking? Now I don’t think the FA process in college is as complicated as the tax code, but clearly some people do. And if they do, why would they ASSUME anything, just like I sure would not assume anything about the tax code? Heck, I think I understand the FA process of universities, and I would still ask.</p>
<p>There really is no excuse for being surprised about the definitions of the process beyond the first step. Going in? Sure, OK. Maybe people might have thought it would be different. Obviously by this thread, they often do. But to push blindly forward assuming you are right about something you clearly knew nothing about, and not asking? That is no ones fault but the person doing that.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have heard of that for cases where the dorms are overbooked or for fellowships, but otherwise not for an ordinary college situation. Could you give some specific examples? Thanks!</p>
<p>fallen and he-who-shall-be-ignored have a pure caveat emptor view of the world. My objection is not that they hold this caveat emptor view, but that they insist it is the only true point of view.</p>
<p>Well, the securities laws of this country take the opposite position: the seller must fairly disclose all material facts upfront. Similar legal requirements at the FTC federally and many state consumer fraud laws. So apparently there are other valid points of view …</p>
<p>Is there a feature on CC where you could vote someone off the island?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow. Just wow. Believe it or not, you’re not perfect. Just rude.</p>
<p>As for your second point, the financial aid director at Juniata College told us at the open house that outside scholarships would NOT impact need-based aid. No, I don’t have a notarized letter from her stating that. (By the way, rocket6louise and others–their regular admission deadline is March 15…) </p>
<p>I don’t understand why you have such a problem with people wishing that colleges would be more explicit. All they would have to do is include one paragraph on the financial aid page of their website explaining exactly how merit aid and outside scholarships impact need-based aid–whether loans, workstudy, or grants would be replaced first. Why is it better to have thousands of people calling the financial aid office?</p>
<p>cluelessdad - it is very clear you are not a lawyer. But hey, go sue the universities under your theory. I will bet my house you get absolutely nowhere.</p>
<p>It is interesting you purport to know what view of the world I have. I thought you chastised us all for making assumptions like that. Not only does caveat emptor not apply here, I never said that I thought the universities had no obligation to disclose. I am not saying they cannot be clearer. They probably can. Then you will want them to be clearer about something else, then something else, until oh-my-gosh, they actually have to put it all on a few pages of terms and conditions like they are now! Shocking. And you are right, I do hold the view that the receiver in a transaction has an obligation to know what they are buying. Another shocking stance, I know.</p>
<p>clueless</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does this mean you are now going to quit sending me insulting PMs as well?</p>
<p>fallenchemist</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly and well said. If people do not understand something or know the answer for sure, the common sense action is to ask - not assume</p>
<p>stevensmama</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Never said I was perfect - just correct in this instance. And given that you haven’t posted any evidence or disputed the facts here that at virtually every college in this country merit based aid does not reduce EFC, you seemingly agree I am correct. Your one Juniata reference is not in line with what we are talking about as your example brings outside scholarships into play - and that is different than the college’s own merit scholarships that have been the basis of the thread and the OP’s question</p>
<p>As to what people wish for (ie colleges to be more explicit) - where did I say I have a problem with that? But wishing and assuming are two different things. Some folks posting here believe the colleges are obligated to be more explicit - and that because those posters make faulty assumptions, it is the fault of the colleges for not hitting them over the head with every nuance of every one of their policies. That is what I have a problem with. When people assume rather than ask the question. When people blame the colleges for their own ignorance. People need to take personal responsibility for their own actions rather than blaming someone else</p>
<p>My company reimburses moving expenses for new hires and we gross it up for tax purposes. (perfectly legal, our rationale being that if the IRS treats your 10K moving expense like income so you have to pay taxes on it, the cost of joining our company is now your marginal tax rate… which people wouldn’t like.)</p>
<p>If you request a transfer to another location for personal reasons, sometimes we pay your moving expenses and sometimes not. (Depends on lots of factors, how long you’ve been here, are you a top performer, does your transfer help us or hurt us in the long run.) Again, if we pay, we gross up for tax purposes.</p>
<p>We have many employees discover after the fact that their job search/relocation expenses are not tax deductible. The laws are complex in this arena (and I’m neither a CPA nor a lawyer), but defining whether the job is “in your current field” or “outside of your field” isn’t as obvious a matter as it might seem, but it determines the deductibility of certain job related expenses.</p>
<p>It is both sad and irritating to see how many people assume that job search/relocation expenses must be tax deductible because we gross up relocation expenses. While I understand the internal logic that some people apply (taxes= taxes; job relocation expenses= job relocation expenses) in fact, the reason we gross up the relocation expenses is precisely because the IRS does not allow a deduction for most people. (if they did, we wouldn’t be handing out extra cash, trust me.)</p>
<p>I see this as comparable to the people who assume that merit aid goes to reduce the EFC for someone already receiving need based aid. Yes, it would be great if it did, and yes, it would make a lot of sense if it did. But in point of fact it doesnt-- and to assume that of course it does and it should is sort of like all of our employees who need to move to Orlando to follow their girlfriend who just got a job at Disney and first they get annoyed that we won’t pay to move them, and then a year later they get annoyed that they can’t deduct all of their expenses on their taxes.</p>
<p>People- you gotta ask! And no, this is not on our website (but it is in the fine print in the employee manual and on our intranet site for employees.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>fallenchemist, CPAs and tax lawyers were AMONG the people who were blindsided by this. But for the sake of argument let’s assume that there are impartial, knowledgeable, professionally certified individuals who can oversee your college financial planning. Where are they? CFPs can help you with the savings and investment part. CPAs and tax attorneys can help with the legal and tax implications. College counselors and GCs can help with the matching up of stats with admissions and fit. The impartial knowledgeable people who can help with the “you can afford to go to these schools” are…well, certainly not the individual college reps. CC is as good as it gets in this department. Yet not many people find their way to CC. If there was a professional financial counseling service, the people who most need it would be the least likely to be able to afford it.</p>
<p>We are probably going to be a full-pay family. Here’s an inside look at how I’ve been trying to figure out just one issue of many: should our children apply for FA?</p>
<p>Year 0, before reading CC
We should submit FAFSA and PROFILE when D1 applies to college. Well, you never know, she may get some money.
Oops: we wouldn’t have thought that doing so would affect her admissions chances at some schools. </p>
<p>Year 0.5 on CC
Don’t submit either form unless required for merit aid! It won’t get us any money, and it will hurt her admissions chances.<br>
Oops: we wouldn’t have thought that this might affect her being eligible at some schools for need-based aid in future years if that suddenly became necessary. </p>
<p>Year 2.0 on CC
Ask each college where D1 applies if they will only consider her eligible for FA in future years if she applies as a freshman, and then ask if applying after the FA deadline, so that it doesn’t affect her admissions chances but makes her eligible for Stafford loans, will make her eligible to apply for need-based FA in the future.
Oops: I don’t know, I’m sure I’m still doing something wrong. 
And I’m also sure that after I figure out this particular “oops” that I’ll still mess something up. So will most of you :D</p>
<p>I’m sure I haven’t peeled all the layers off the onion yet. Even so, it’s taken me two years of self-education to get to the point that I can formulate that last question. I suspect that the vast majority of full-pay parents of high school juniors wouldn’t have the slightest clue that this is a question they should be asking. Our legal and financial advisors wouldn’t have the slightest clue we should be concerned with this, either. I’ll ask the counseling staff at D1’s school, and I bet you that they will not have thought that this is an issue.</p>
<p>Lotta stupid people out there. ;)</p>
<p>To ignore or not to ignore, that is the question …</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I would never insult someone for being a k-12 educator, it is a worthy profession. The point in my PM was that, not being in the business world, you are wholly unqualified to opine on how legitimate business/investments get conducted – particularly the importance of business reputation as an initial screen that one must hurdle to even get in the door to do deals of any significance. And that by your attitude and rudeness already demonstrated on this thread, you flunk that screen.</p>
<p>And the real point of my PM was to ask you to stop beating up on a 17 year old girl. the words heartless and buzzard come to mind …</p>
<p>But then, I often think I am hilarious when clearly I am not :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There you go assuming again. When will you ever learn.</p>