<p>Perhaps the reason that the schools don’t print their FA policies in black and white is to leave themselves a little wiggle room. Nothing worse than getting hit with accusations of discrimination, and its harder to defend against a writtten policy than an unwritten one. Many, MANY students and parents go back to the FA drawing board and ask for reconsideration, and play offers against each other when they come in. With the policies left purposefully vague, this allows the schools to participate in this if they so wish. There is a great thread from several yrs ago by dudiligence about this. I will have to see if I can find it,and if so, will post the link here.</p>
<p>SltheyTove - Well, that is a lot to chew on, but can you tell me what school requires a FAFSA and CSS for merit aid? That makes no sense to me. Not saying they don’t exist, it just makes no sense to me. Unless they are saying they won’t give merit aid to people that can afford full pay, in which case it isn’t really merit aid, it is need-based aid with an academic qualification filter.</p>
<p>The person you turn to if you have that question (and if it isn’t on the web site, which it usually is for the question being asked here) is the FA person at the school. Maybe they don’t want thousands of calls, and what better way to get them to make it clearer on their site than to overwhelm them? If the market isn’t telling them this is a problem by calling or complaining to them, what is there to fix as far as they know? Again, thousands of calls and e-mails is good motivation for being clearer on the site and mailers.</p>
<p>Frankly, if you submitted the FA forms under the theory that “hey, we might get something” and they saw you were full pay, that would actually help you if the school wasn’t need-blind. There really isn’t much to be done if people are not familiar at all with the terms need-blind and need-aware, and in such case don’t find it in researching schools. I guess that is another thing schools need to put on their home page in large red blinking letters.</p>
<p>I guess I need some education here with regard to not being able to get FA in subsequent years if you don’t apply freshman year. Can you give me an example of a school that does that? Thanks.</p>
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<p>“Ok, while I work for a top PK-12 Independent school,…” Your words, 10/06/09 post on this site. Were you lying then or are you lying now?</p>
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<p>See, that is the trouble with your assumptions - they continue to make you look foolish. Where I work now says nothing about my background, where I worked previously, what my current responsibilities entail, etc.</p>
<p>I won’t hold my breath waiting for your mea culpa</p>
<p>@ Post 363: This is too easy. Does working for an Independent school necessarily mean they are an educator? They do have finance people, some have marketers, and there are other functions besides teaching. I think that assumption just explained everything.</p>
<p>Now this is just getting embarassing for him. At least he picked a good name.</p>
<p>jym,</p>
<p>this this the thread by dudediligence that you were referring to?</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/164684-question-fa-experts-2-kids-school-does-out-pocket-x-affect-y.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/164684-question-fa-experts-2-kids-school-does-out-pocket-x-affect-y.html</a></p>
<p>Thanks, as always, sybbs! I think this one too had a ton of great info <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/118616-my-dinner-admissions-officer.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/118616-my-dinner-admissions-officer.html</a></p>
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<p>Submit FAFSA for some schools, PROFILE for others. All I meant was that I’d fill out both. Though in my know-nothing state, I probably thought that you submitted both forms to all schools. :)</p>
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<p>Well, like I said, it’s taken me two years of reading and learning and thinking to get to the point that I realize that this is a question I need to ask. My assumption 
is that there simply aren’t thousands of people who have stumbled across something like this on CC or through knowing parents who’ve run into this situation who would deluge the FA people with this question. </p>
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<p>Wouldn’t that depend on what info the adcoms have in hand? I don’t know if they just know that the applicant has applied for FA, or if the FA office has established the amount of FA they’d give each applicant. General consensus here on CC is that submitting is going to hurt admissions chances for non-need-blind schools. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.</p>
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<p>I think it’s my turn to say that this proves my point Seriously, I can’t give specific names, I don’t remember them, but I DO know that people have mentioned this on CC. So I do know, now, that I will ask this just of the schools where D1 applies.</p>
<p>To be explicit: my point here is to show that this is a really, really complex process, so complex that there are nuances that even knowledgeable, intelligent people here on CC haven’t heard about. The things that many of us here now understand as standard knowledge would be considered nuances by others who are just starting to climb the learning curve, let alone those who have no idea that the curve exists at all.</p>
<p>Slithey, I am not aware of any need-blind school who would not award need based aid sophomore year if the parents qualified, without regard to whether you’d applied for freshman year. Schools know that parents circumstances chance- another kid entering college, parent loses job means that you can qualify for later years even if you didn’t qualify initially. And schools are always willing to take a look if “special circumstances” requiring professional judgment apply-- unusual medical expenses, grandparent needing full time care, etc. Not saying you will always get- but the need blind schools will look at your fin aid application without prejudice based on your current (meaning your last tax year) info.</p>
<p>Can’t speak to the other schools but I’m sure someone else can.</p>
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<p>The exact quote in the PM was: “a k-12 teacher/admin of some type” So no false assumption made, as he-who-shall-be-ignored well knew. Excuse me for using the term “educator” as a term of honor in my post.</p>
<p>Embarrassed? No. I guess I would be embarrassed if my passion was business rather than educational mission and the best I could do was a k-12 nonprofit.</p>
<p>But if I believed in education stongly enough to be part of that mission, I would embrace the term “educator” regardless of my job title at the school. I just wouldn’t view my job duties as qualified to opine on what happens in the larger world of business/investment.</p>
<p>On later years, in the case of international students I have seen specific reference that no aid in initial application means no aid in any subsequent years. I think that was Stanford; obviously internationals are a different category.</p>
<p>wow…what happened the happy cooperation on this thread?</p>
<p>thanks for the heads up stevensmama…I’ll be sure to look at Juniata…</p>
<p>I guess what this comes down to is that I assumed(and I get that this is 100% my fault…the old saying does go that assuming makes an ass out of you and me) that when I saw financial aid and merit that they were two different categories. A naive assumption to make. But I assume the good in people and I assumed(once again…my fault) that the colleges would be looking out for my best interest and would not deceive me. And no, they did not outright deceive me, but they did leave it purposefully vague. Should I have investigated? absolutely IN HINDSIGHT…but at the time it would never dawn on me to do so. </p>
<p>Once again, I pose the question-could you have expected any better out of your college bound kids. If NO ONE was there to guide them, would they have thought the same thing? I think so…That’s who colleges need to be gearing their websites towards…kids like me without a clue</p>
<p>Rocket, I don’t think you are clueless but you have a singular advantage over clueless parents when it comes time to evaluate your aid packages- you are a kid, and a mature one at that.</p>
<p>There is room in every aid package for judgment. No, they will not buy you a car and and a washer/dryer as a “thank you” for agreeing to attend their school. It is unlikely they will pay 100% of your EFC out of some discretionary funds. But it is likely that if the school really wants you, and if you approach the financial aid people with a well reasoned and documented case, that they will at least try to be as flexible as they can given the need to also be flexible with all the other prospective students who are in tough financial situations right now.</p>
<p>Here’s what might help- your parents illness. (Document, if you can, both loss of income and out of pocket medical expenses.) Any evidence that their “on-paper finances” don’t accurately reflect your household income. (financial responsibility for an elderly parent, unusual expenses to take care of a special needs younger sibling, etc.) Your intention to take advantage of work study, applying to be an RA as an upperclassman to reduce your housing costs, your willingness to take out loans for whatever is gapped.</p>
<p>Here’s what won’t help- Your parents unwillingness to pay, if in fact, there are assets available. Your unwillingness to take out loans since you want to preserve your creditworthiness for grad school. </p>
<p>You can ask your principal for help drafting the letter requesting a review of your aid once you know where you’ve been accepted and once you know what they are offering you. You may or may not get very far (and obviously I don’t know your financial situation) but stressing the positives and not the negatives (in their mind) may help you. You may view debt as bad and are unwilling to take out loans or your parents are unwilling to take out loans. And that’s your business. But colleges view their fees as coming from three different places- current income (duh); past or future income (past is your savings or other assets, future income is in the form of loans which you repay once you get the income);Other (which is institutional aid, special endowment funds available for specific types of scholarships, government subsidies, outside scholarships and foundation money, etc.) Virtually every family in America thinks that current and Other are fine ways to pay for college. Virtually every family in America resists or resents or just won’t accept the future/past income category. Nobody wants to be “penalized” for their thrift by having the school “take the money” out of their savings. Nobody wants to be penalized down the road by having the bank “take the money” out of their future earnings.</p>
<p>But to a financial aid officer, these three categories represent the entire ball of wax of funding options. So if you can’t afford it by writing a check from your current salary, and don’t get adequate aid (or if you get adequate aid but won’t or can’t pay your EFC) then the only option is to borrow. Or to choose a school with a better financial deal.</p>
<p>Good luck- you sound like a very smart person with a lot of backbone.</p>
<p>Rocket many adults here have told you that they, in fact, assumed the same thing, especially in the case of outside scholarships. Slithy has a wonderful post about the evolution of understanding. And no, I don’t expect the kids to understand this. I know for fact that our high school guidance counselors don’t, even the ones with kids in college and our GCs specifically tell the parents in the junior year “college” meeting to “meet” with a professional regarding all-things college, they don’t even see it has “their” responsibility short of holding the kids butt to fire to get their apps done they’ve got bigger fish to fry just keeping kids out of trouble and in-school and we have a USNWR school. This is the real world not a rarified world where people actually know all the ins-and-outs of the “business decision making” of a specific industry. Not to worry.</p>
<p>Students who are receiving need based aid are getting it because they NEED it. A better question might be…Should students coming from wealthy homes receive any merit aid? Aid of any type should only be given to those who trully need it, and I personally think that those who can afford to pay should feel blessed enough to give that money to a kid who can never afford an education otherwise.</p>
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While I don’t necessarily agree with berryberry in viewpoint or tone, I would like to correct your counterargument: berryberry was referring to institutional merit aid which is TOTALLY different from outside scholarships. If Juniata gives an FA student a merit scholarship, that scholarship will not stack with merit aid (as far as I know).</p>
<p>Some schools do require FAFSA and CSS PROFILE for merit aid. Brandeis, I believe, is one? Or BU? They have scholarships designated specially for families who have a high but not ridiculously high EFC.</p>
<p>IIRC you must apply to Macalester for FA at admission or you cannot apply in subsequent years. It meets full need but is not need-blind. This is for domestic as well as (I assume) international applicants.</p>
<p>I agree that FA is a nuanced and complex process. But the tax code isn’t simplified because people can’t wade through it; those who can’t pay others who can to do it for them.</p>
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<p>Are there people that I could pay who could really guide on this? I don’t think there are. Yet.</p>
<p>momma-three I think all kids should be able to get merit aid. I like the colleges that award $$ with the acceptances and disconnect it from the finaid (which happens at many of the Rolling and EA schools, many of those college/unis simply don’t “know” the financial detail at that point.) I just think that is a fair thing to do.</p>
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<p>Actually quite the opposite. I don’t know anything about it because I never looked into it at all, not because it is complicated. I never claimed I knew everything about FA or that anyone would. So rather than make an assumption of any kind that I would act on, I asked you for evidence. I did make an assumption that what you said makes no sense. If a person’s financial circumstances get considerably worse, I would think a college would treat that person like anyone else needing FA. But I don’t know that is true, and I would never have assumed it to the point of making an important decision.</p>
<p>So at this point there is no evidence that there are schools that require FAFSA and/or CSS for merit aid (or at least you didn’t tell me who does), nor is there evidence that you cannot get FA if you didn’t apply for it freshman year. Right? I know for a fact there are schools where you cannot get MERIT aid after freshman year (Tulane for example). Is that possibly what you meant?</p>
<p>^ an example from Keil as to at least macalester on FA:</p>
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<p>Makes sense in a way, in that colleges may be trying to project what their FA exposure may be over the full 4 years and a later wildcard could be harder to plan for. But that’s me guessing at (assuming?) a rationale.</p>
<p>and also brandeis/BU on merit/FAFSA:</p>
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