<p>Compmom, good question. If he does well for the rest of college he will likely only have 7.5k in debt, and I might “forgive” that, assuming he’s doing something other than taking up room on my sofa 
He is not an easy one to talk to, but I do want to try and have some discussion about his life after undergrad while he’s home this break, so I’m looking for thoughts/suggestions from others to help me.</p>
<p>I’m confused. You can either afford to fund the balance of his education (if you’re “forgiving” the loan i.e. can afford to pay it off, why does he have a loan to begin with?) AND help subsidize his travel/adventures, or you can’t. If you can, then no problem- you know your financial limitations and he can put off being a grown up for as long as you’ve got the dough.</p>
<p>If you can’t afford it, then heading off for a non-renumerative adventure seems to me like kicking the can down the road. The loans don’t go away because he’s climbing Machu Picchu. And getting a Master’s degree- only to discover that THEN he needs his adventure, seems like further denial.</p>
<p>It’s great he’s a junior. That means he’s got time for a meaningful summer job this year. That means he’s got time to network with alums to learn about all the fabulously interesting things that people from his college with math degrees are doing. That means he’s got time to decide if he wants a job with a political consulting firm using Big Data to advise campaigns, or doing market research for a consumer products company, or working for a transportation consulting firm helping big municipalities develop peak pricing models for tolls and subway fares.</p>
<p>I can’t fathom getting a Master’s degree (and if you can afford “forgiving” his loans why will the Master’s require another 16K in debt?) just to put off having to explore your career options. The day of reckoning arrives eventually.</p>
<p>And I don’t know your kid- but I’ve known plenty of kids heading off to doctorate programs in math. They are not just kids who are good in math. They are kids who eat, breathe, sleep, and consume math. A bad GPA doesn’t derail them. They have professors who will pick up the phone to call colleagues at other universities to say, “you need to meet this student”.</p>
<p>If this isn’t your kid, then the GPA and whether he gets funded or not is a total red herring, i.e. irrelevant. Lots of people love college. That’s a terrible reason to go to grad school. Grad school is NOT an extra year or two of undergrad. And the best way to ensure that he ends up on your sofa is to allow him to slide into grad school in order to avoid a hard conversation about the rest of his life.</p>
<p>I know and love many sofa-dwellers. You don’t want that for him, just because he’s “not an easy one to talk to”.</p>
<p>I was tempted to go directly to grad school because I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my degree. I ended up getting a job with a large company and had the opportunity to move around into different roles. I eventually went back to grad school on the company’s dime. Though it took a long time since I worked full time and went to school at night, it was well worth it. I highly recommend that your son works for at least a year, and hopefully that will help clarify what he would like to pursue. And he should not go deeper into debt to get his MS. There is no good reason to do that at this point.</p>
<p>If he will get the scholarship no matter his major for the Master’s degree, I would say to look into a major other than math, or more specific than math (focused on one area).</p>
<p>Would his time be better spent trying to get a co-op or internship instead of worrying about getting a Master’s degree? As a junior, it is the perfect time to line up a co-op or summer internship, and actually try to figure out what he wants to do with himself. </p>
<p><a href=“National Security Agency Careers | Apply Now”>National Security Agency Careers | Apply Now;
<p>As for “finding himself” by traveling and so on after he graduates either with or without the Master’s degree, that is a LOT easier to explain if he gets some job experience in now.</p>
<p>I am mentoring a student who has no co-op or internship experience, and it has been near impossible for her to find a job. I worked every summer of college as a technician and research assistant, though I didn’t do any co-ops.</p>
<p>I am insisting that my son do at least one co-op during college though it is not required. As someone who has hired engineers in the past (before I started teaching I was in industry), it is a big blank not to have summer internship and co-op experience. More important than GPA in our minds when we were hiring.</p>
<p>There are ways to see the world that don’t involve spending money and may even mean earning some. WOOF, service, teaching English. I know many successful people who traveled after graduation or did some other kind of “wise wandering” (including restaurant work). If your son doesn’t have loans to pay off after all, I think having some adventures is a great idea, as long as they contribute to his development and aren’t just avoidance.</p>
<p>I also know many young people who are in grad school (sometimes high level students on prestigious scholarships) who explicitly say they have no idea what to do once out of school and that they therefore want to continue in academia. However, they do have passion for their subject.</p>
<p>Regarding the loan amount, he knew going in that he would have to pay about 20K for undergrad. I was hoping to let him graduate debt free, by paying more out of pocket than originally planned (this was never promised or even discussed with him). When he received his terrible GPA one semester, I decided he should be required to take a loan to help pay. We are aware that he should be looking for internships/summer jobs, and I am pushing that also. But this thread was created about grad school. Although I may help a little, we do not plan to pay for grad school. </p>
<p>Thanks COMPMOM, that’s just the kind of thing I could see him doing. Right now this is all speculation, as he has 3 semesters of undergrad to complete. He does have a passion for math, I’m pretty sure of that. It may be that he can get a grad degree with just one additional semester, depending on how the next couple go. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does he know what specific subfields and topics he wants to study as a grad student? Does he have math Profs who know of him and about his passion for math and focused interests enough to write him a great LOR?</p>
<p>If he doesn’t or is not sure, he needs to get cracking on addressing those issues as if he waits until he finishes undergrad or worse, after getting that 5th year Masters, he’s not likely to be a viable candidate for a math PhD program…especially the respectable/elite ones.</p>
<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that unlike undergrad/masters or some professional grad programs, paying to do a PhD is CONSIDERED A BAD THING in the academy even if one graduates if the goal is to pursue a career in academia. </p>
<p>Academic hiring committees will view a PhD student about to graduate or a PhD graduate without any funding from the department/university or outside scholarships as little more than an academic dilettante being allowed to pay to do a PhD so the department doesn’t have to waste its fellowship funding on what they’d consider a mediocre student. This was a warning I kept hearing from established academics in undergrad, grad school, and academics within my extended family. </p>
<p>Thanks for the info. I’m not sure he will get a PhD, at least right away. Part of his “issue” is he is very hesitant to actually talk to professors or others who could be helpful to him. He prefers to be anonymous, and not bring any attention to himself. This last semester he got very sick, for example, and he never let most of his professors know what was going on. He has become somewhat more outgoing since he’s been at college, and I’m hopeful that he will continue to grow and become more willing to engage. I can’t remember if I mentioned previously or not, but he is very bright but fairly immature. </p>
<p>If he was sick (did you mention hospital?) he has rights to accommodations…depending on the situation, through the disabilities office, dean, support services and health center. He would have to talk to the professors but someone in an authoritative position would provide a letter and communicate via e-mail with professors on his behalf. If he was impacted academically in any way by his illness perhaps something could be done about it retroactively. He needs documentation of course. Was he in touch with college health services at the time?</p>
<p>“I can’t fathom getting a Master’s degree just to put off having to explore your career options.”</p>
<p>I’m not defending this as a rational choice, but I know countless master’s degrees (not to mention JDs, MDs, and PhDs) that were earned for this reason.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>^^I think I may have been guilty of this - mid-career, no less. The main difference between me and the OP’s son is that I was fully funded so no debt was incurred. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, I consider myself to be an experienced academic, and have sat on many hiring committees for tenure-track faculty in a technology field. I have NEVER heard of any consideration being given to the funding arrangements for the candidate’s PhD. Why should we care if it was research grant supported or paid for by Uncle Larry? The absolutely most important factor is the quality of the publication record, relative to stage of career, some other factors are considered, but not dilettantism. </p>
<p>Actually, I have a folder of applicants currently to hand for two open positions, looking through the CVs it is hard to figure out in most cases what were the sources of financial support for the PhD years. I suppose something like a Rhodes Scholarship would be impressive, but apart from that, nope.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You are the exception to the rule I commonly heard from relatives in academia in the natural sciences, my Profs in undergrad/grad school, and what I’ve observed at some academic conferences in the social sciences/humanities. </p>
<p>The idea is if one doesn’t get funding from the university department or is sponsored by an outside fellowship, then the individual concerned wasn’t really wanted by the department except to serve as a cash cow for the more meritorious PhD level students and as perceived “compensation” for possible “reputation damage/risk” incurred by department by admitting an otherwise mediocre grad student even if he/she’s wealthy enough to be a full-pay PhD-level grad student. </p>
<p>The academics I knew who served on hiring committees all said one of the things they check is the list of fellowships/scholarships provided during the tenure-track candidate’s time as a PhD-level grad student. Having none would serve as a red flag to them. </p>
<p>The general advice from them is that receiving admission to a PhD program without funding is basically a “soft rejection” and one would be foolhardy both from a financial and career standpoint if one’s goal is to land a tenure-track position. There’s also the consideration that most viable candidates for tenure track positions would have received departmental funding and/or outside fellowships during their time in the PhD program so someone without those fellowships on their CV wouldn’t as good in comparison. </p>
<p>Also, several undergrad classmates applying to PhD programs were pointedly warned by a former undergrad Prof of ours to avoid accepting PhD program offers from departments where they are expected to be full pay for those very reasons. </p>
<p>Your relatives are wrong. Selection committee members, in real life, go straight to the publications.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The ones I know look at and scrutinize both along with LORs. </p>
<p>They also don’t feel it a coincidence that the most competitive tenure track candidates with the strongest publication records were also those who received departmental and/or outside fellowships for which demonstrated academic potential/publishing record was a prerequisite. </p>
<p>I’m wondering if your field/department may be the exception as you said you’re in a technology field. </p>
<p>What I’ve described doesn’t apply as much to more preprofessional departments due to various reasons such as PhD graduates having a more direct route to industry as opposed to the fields my relatives and friends were in. </p>
<p>As a practical matter, attending an unfunded PhD program will probably be too expensive anyway.</p>
<p>Going back to the original question, it may not be the best idea to go directly to a master’s degree program without a clear reason to do so. An example would be to improve one’s academic record and get more research experience in order to get into a funded PhD program if one’s bachelor’s degree credentials are not good enough to do so directly. In some pre-professional fields, it is sometimes used as a way of stalling entry into the job market if bachelor’s degree graduation happens during an industry downturn (hoping that the industry improves by the time master’s degree graduation happens). But it seems like a bad idea without a clear reason and a significantly greater debt load.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Especially considering the average time to complete a PhD from start to finish in many fields, including natural sciences is creeping past 6-7 years. </p>
<p>Granted, some universities, notably Princeton have instituted a 5 year limit which depending on department could be a hard limit(5 or you’re out)* or soft(after 5th year, department fellowship ends so grad student needs to find outside fellowships/other means of financial support)**.</p>
<p>However, Princeton and universities like it have a policy of fully funding practically every PhD-level grad student they admit even with that time limit. </p>
<ul>
<li>A college classmate’s dad ended up having to leave Princeton for not finishing his PhD after 5 years. Ended up having to finish at at another university.</li>
</ul>
<p>** Knew a tenured math Prof who took 9.5 years to get his PhD at Princeton. His department just cut off funding after 5 years and he recounted sustaining the last 4.5 years with a mix of outside fellowships and working as a waiter at some country club while keeping it a secret from his advisor/department. </p>
<p>If he gets into a math program, he will likely get funding regardless of his undergraduate GPA. Freshman Calculus always needs another TA. And if he is in, he is in. He will not be accepted to a Master’s program and then not supported because his GPA is sub-par. It is more of a team mentality. A Master’s may be viewed as failing to pass the qualifying exam, unless it is in something more applied as mentioned above, such as CS.</p>
<p>I do feel for you regarding the personality. If you live close by, you should seriously consider accompanying him to the students with disabilities office to get on their radar. At the vary least, deal with the illness episode with the dean for student affairs or the disability office. I am not sure he will outgrow this. I have his twin.</p>
<p>A good REU for this summer may give him inspiration and focus as well as a solid reference. </p>
<p><a href=“AMS :: Research Experiences for Undergraduates (REUs)”>http://www.ams.org/programs/students/emp-reu</a></p>
<p>It comes with a stipend and travel monies, and can help him to look at an academic problem, be around a small group of peers, and hopefully dig into a particular branch of Mathematics. Maybe a membership in AMS would be helpful, with their monthly magazine? He is just entering upper division courses. A lot happens over the next 9 - 12 months in terms of intellectual maturity. Emotional maturity is something else entirely…</p>
<p>He really should target applying for a Math PhD, just as an inspiration and a goal. If this summer goes well, everything could change. Have faith! PM me and let me know how it is going.</p>
<p>Ultimately, a Bachelor’s is a useful degree; and he could adjunct at a community college or non-research institution (if there are slots) with a Master’s, though the last few years has resulted in everything tightening up.</p>