They have a formula for dual enrolment which can range from $600 to $900 per class depending on the city and state…Let me know if the number is much different (with what city and state).
Also the highest level class offered in mathematics is Calc BC in high school compared to Linear Algebra and differential equations at community college. Also in physics many high school do not offer either calc based physics classes or the quality of these classes is poor compared to community college
Reply to EarlVanDorn: You are right-if the student is not directed properly they can end up not learning or growing compared to other students in other countries. But high tuition cost can limit them growing further. That is why college tuition should be free for high school students.
@nmc2015, is there some reason you’re ignoring requests to know what state you reside in and what your child’s stats are? You do realize what’s true in CA is not true in PA or FL, etc.?
Someone could have a field day with all the fallacies in these arguments. Got anything else? Apparently, in some places HS students can take college courses free or at a reduced rate. Why should we be anymore generous than that?
I’ve not yet posted on this thread, because I just can’t get past trying to wrap my brain around this line from the original post:
What in the world is this supposed to mean? Upper-division courses generally cost more to deliver, not less, because the classes are usually smaller and they require faculty with higher levels of expertise.
Seriously, I want to know how the economics of this is supposed to work.
@dfbdfb and @sylvan8798, I first thought that perhaps it was a language issue, and then thought that finding the logical and practical fallacies was a worthwhile endeavor, and settled on this as a combination of being too stubborn to admit to making a half-baked argument and a very strange form of humble brag.
That said, I should have thought to hire out my HS students to neighboring colleges, since the professors could have derived such benefit from their being in class. Short-sighted me.
fwiw - I interpreted this as “these students” being the sort having the potential to enrich/ benefit the college and, by extension, society as a whole, not necessarily by their tuition dollars but by what they accomplish in their later lives, and that our current system doesn’t support these students. Since I don’t believe the current system necessarily maximizes human potential, I may just be projecting here.
Where you live matters. Wisconsin has had Youth Options for kids to take courses when the HS does not offer the material. State/district (not sure) pays the tuition to the college. Other costs- transportation, meals room and board if the student leaves his town for a full college load are borne by the family.
Potential is just that- it in no way compares to achievement. Interest and ability are different- having great interest is common in college students and no big deal. Even gifted students at a top flagship U or other elite U will not be at all as smart as many of their professors.
My gifted son finished HS and started college while 16. He did not need financial aid and of course we paid in full for his education. Did not look for any money from NMS- he was a finalist. High schools are expected to offer a certain level of education, it is not their job to teach beyond the norm so a student can get college courses until age 18. Wisconsin allows HS students to take college classes- there was a 14 year old girl in his freshman honors physics class. Cost- depends on what the state chooses to spend taxpayer dollars on. With current budget constraints this may go by the wayside (not living there anymore so not in the loop).
Back to the thread title. Getting A’s is not a sign of giftedness. In fact, it depends on the grading system, doing homework (which is not always needed by a gifted student for mastery), being bored etc. A student who is not in the top percentile (singular- generously maybe top 3% as is used by some states to define eligibility for gifted programs) should be spending more time and effort on HS work, not attempting college work. Of course the HS student will have no study halls and be involved heavily in extracurricular activities including arts, sports, music and academic clubs. btw- AP courses are merely average level, not top tier level college course material. Plus- a student can self study and take any AP exam.
No HS student will enrich a college. Even the most brilliant student does not have the same knowledge base as the professor or any TA’s. I also did not understand a comment about team work. That can be done with HS peers.
OP- I think you are off base in your thinking. Educate yourself on gifted education- Google it. Doing the work to get an A in HS by no means a student can do well in a college course, especially at a school compatible with his/her intellectual ability. An A most often means hard work along with being above the average in IQ. Nothing that special. In fact the kids who need the college course often do NOT get A’s in HS because they are too bored to fully engage in the busy work others need to master concepts.
I agree with posters who would be upset if their college student was displaced by a HS student paying no tuition and fees.
AP courses are the answer to offering college level courses for free to HS students. But- the local tax payers need to be willing to foot the bill for the extra costs to their school district.
Here’s another take on the idea. Should we be willing to foot the bill for your gifted athlete to participate in beyond school sports, your gifted musician’s music lessons beyond what the school offers, your dancer, artist or any number of other abilities???
I have a niece who ran out of high school math classes by mid-sophomore year. Her high school arranged for courses taught by a college instructor – the classes were offered to my niece and a few other advanced kids from other nearby high schools. It was a regular public high school, but in a wealthy area. So while, technically, my niece didn’t “pay” for the college-level math she took in high school, her parents paid plenty to live in this wealthy suburb.
In Reply to Wis75 - Statement#1 " High schools are expected to offer a certain level of education, it is not their job to teach beyond the norm so a student can get college courses until age 18. " and Statement#2 -“Back to the thread title. Getting A’s is not a sign of giftedness”
I feel that you are contradicting yourself here. First you are saying that your kid is good and parent is responsible for paying for college if parent want kid to stay ahead. But 2nd statement says the kid getting A should not be considered gifted. I am very clear in what I am saying - That yes students are getting A because the high school levels are below average. The student needs to go to college because it is high schools that need to improve their standards. Then why students suffer for what high school is supposed to be working on. USA needs to be competitive compared to other countries high school education.
Also yes I see high school students doing homework until midnight with very little or no learning. This is another major factor that is not helping students. Yes a student can get A just by doing homework but would fail the test when sitting with students from other countries. High schools needs to change the way they are giving homework and provide quality education that makes them more capable in learning concepts. But the entire education system with the concept of no child left behind is making sure the child should not be left behind. Rather than that if they focus competitive environment, the children will not left behind as they always try to catch on.
^I’m not seeing any contradiction there. High schools are designed to get students to a certain point in subjects X, Y, and Z. In math, to at least offer an introduction to calculus, possibly AP Calculus. Students wanting to go beyond that have to go to different institutions. And getting A’s is not a sign of “giftedness”, even in college.
I would much rather see our K12 school systems put extra money into improving the entire educational experience, from Kindergarten, for gifted students, than worry about paying the high cost of college classes for high school students.
" Rather than that if they focus competitive environment, the children will not left behind as they always try to catch on." This makes for a horrible childhood and learning environment–students who don’t want to help their peers succeed and therefore are unable to learn from each other, students who care more about grades than learning, rampant cheating under the pressure.
First of all, @nmc2015, you are not clear in what you are “saying” or writing, so I’m going to hazard a guess that English isn’t your first language. Please correct me if I’m mistaken.
As to, “USA needs to be competitive compared to other countries high school education,” I must ask why you came here. Why not just stay in your home country if the US educational system is substandard?
And, again, for the third time, I am asking you to identify the state you live in and your gifted child’s scores. You write as if the US has some huge, monolithic educational system. That could not be further from the truth. The state where you reside and pay taxes and, more importantly, your individual school district (also largely funded by local taxes) will determine how advanced and suitable the options are for a gifted student.
I would like to get back to the subject - If a high school student has completed all the classes for a particular subject and community college (at least dual enrollment helps student with less money burden and the classes at community college are not that bad and may be they should offer littlebit higher level of such classes) with As, shouldn’t that student attend classes for free in a college when other high schoolers are not paying anything graduating from a high school. What I am getting is that High School administration need to work on this and not College administration. I believe high school, college administration and the state all together need to work on this. They have come out with dual enrollment which is very good. But the education administration need to do more than that. What I have learnt is that Community colleges do have good professors and they do teach well and can keep these good kids occupied. Only community college offers classes to a limited level.
Some of the posts were very helpful and thanks to everyone for providing valuable information.
^^ Asked and answered back on page 1!
WHO is going to pay for it? And where will those funds come from? Do you honestly think a “High School administration” just has some slush fund to pay for this kind of thing?
The local school board (elected by local taxpayers where I live) sets the budgets for the high school. If you want more monies appropriated for college-level classes, you need to get involved at the local level, either by running for the school board or lobbying its members effectively.
Lashing out at the “USA” will solve nothing.
I don’t think anybody’s really clear on what the “subject” of your numerous threads is beyond how to get a free education for your apparently not-so-high stat student.
No, college shouldn’t be “free to students (who received) A’s in previous level courses.” If your son is great at math, good for him. But what you’re suggesting is a logistical nightmare. How can colleges plan budgets when they don’t know how many students will get A’s in each subject? What do you do with the kids whose college GPA doesn’t meet Satisfactory Academic Progress? Do they still get to take the free class they qualified for because they got one A?
At the high school level, it’s impractical. High schools can’t award diplomas unless a student meets the criteria set by the state. All A’s in math but D’s in English isn’t the goal of our education system. A student needs to show competence in a variety of subjects, not just their favorite ones. I’m not sure which country you’re from, but you don’t seem to understand our system of education. Students don’t just take courses related to their major in college. They have to take a slew of general education courses in a broad range of subjects. If your son can’t handle the work, he won’t pass. So instead of hyperfocusing on more math classes and how to obtain them for free, you may want to encourage him to spend time on his regular high school coursework.
If you truly feel the education system in other countries is so much better than what you can get in the US, get some applications and have your son apply to college there.
You asked, “Shouldn’t that student attend classes for free in a college” ? We answered, “No.” And cited the many reasons. You repeat the question. We repeat the answers. How long are you going to keep this up?
Free = some one else pays. If that person paying does not do so voluntarily that is legalized theft. I don’t think it could be any clearer that that.
You are already eligible to take all those cc math classes for free. We had to pay tuition for the post-calculus classes our kid took. Stop complaining. Because of logistics, my daughter wasn’t able to take as many college-level math classes as she could have. Guess what? There were plenty of other classes in her high school for her to take. Even after she graduated, she said, “I wish I’d had time to take X and Y”. There is plenty of opportunity for your kid but asking the public to fund a complete undergraduate major in math while your kid is still in high school is not reasonable. Especially when you make so much more money than most people.
The cost of paying for 2 private college classes would eat up nearly the entire yearly budget for educating a student at our school. Where do you suggest the money for these classes should come from?
Some states have programs where the dual enrolled high school students do get to take courses, for free, at community colleges and universities. There may be limits, but it can be done. In Colorado I think they can take up to 3 courses a semester. The school district will pay the university, and the district will be reimbursed by the state. Yup, it’s all one circular budget but not really because wealthier districts get less from the state and more from the property taxes, but all the student cares about is that he can hop on the light rail (also ‘free’ to students) and take a class at one of about 10 community colleges and universities in this area. Not near a college? Take an online class. I believe books are included but not sure.
One high school principal openly encouraged students not to graduate early or even on time - he encouraged them to continue to register for high school, be present on October 1 (that is the census day) and take the free college courses. The high school got credit for registered students, the student got free college. Um, yeah, the state put a stop to it but it worked for 5-6 years.