@MotherOfDragons I mentioned some of the exceptions you cite. There is also something called “fighting words,” which some states treat as an assault, although these statutes are of dubious constitutionality.
The draft card case you mention is unusual, but the law required holders of a draft card to have it with them at all times. Essentially the card was treated as property of the U.S. government. The school cases you cite all deal with high school, and they do not apply or apply only in part to a college setting.
The types of outrageous speech that many seek to punish are exactly the types of speech that are and/or should be protected under the First Amendment.
VERY serious about the down side of Greek life for those who want in. Totally different than not being at a college- just go elsewhere. But those colleges with a strong Greek presence are right there flaunting their exclusion. No escape. Why can’t these groups allow those who want in to be in??? It is so high schoolish to have in and out crowds. We used to say those few who rushed sororities needed that crutch when I was in college- they were the outsiders to the majority. It is very hurtful (and immature) to make people feel badly because they are overlooked- all the excitement and wanting their members to feel special is derogatory to those who have to be aware of it.
There is often a sorority or fraternity for most types of students. If you are at a school where there aren’t enough to for the number of students who want to join, you can be involved in starting a new chapter on campus. This happened at the school I attended.
@wis75 Most of the colleges with a “strong” Greek presence are less than one-third Greek. So a majority of students on these campuses don’t belong. It’s not like someone who doesn’t get a bid is consigned to Hell.
The typical fraternity or sorority can only take about 100 members each year, and that’s at a school with really big Greek houses. At many schools the new-member cap is more like 25 or 30. Sororities have an actual, mandatory quota, but fraternities work to keep from taking too many or too few members.
Obviously each prospective new member will seek an affiliation with what he or she perceives as the “best” fit available for him or her. Each Greek organization will do the same, extending bids to those students who they believe will be most beneficial to the organization as a whole. As part of this process Greeks and rushees tend to affiliate with those with whom they share things in common. These groups aren’t “excluding” anyone. They are filling the limited number of slots will the best people possible (and each group will have a different idea of what is “best” for their own organization).
The downside of my local professional baseball team is that they don’t let me play with them.
The downside of my local concert venue is that they won’t let me sing with the bands.
The downside of exclusive, trendy night clubs is that it won’t let me in whenever I want.
Are any of those previously listed entities part of higher education? The mission, the objectives and greater societal goals are distinct. Furthermore, in many instances, as applied to public universities their are intrinsic obligations back to their respective constituencies.
@boolaHI I dare say the college I attended would not have allowed me to play on the baseball team or sing with the music department. A lot of groups on campus are selective.
Let’s switch “professional baseball team” to “college baseball team”, and “concert venue” to “campus stadium where concerts are held”. Then let’s change “exclusive, trendy nightclub” to “any kind of student group that requires an application”.
College sports (e.g. D1 scholarships) are based on skill sets, unless you might attend a D3 school where there are no tryouts. Your argument is flawed–so if we were to apply the application scenario to Alabama sororities, prior to 2013, it appears that the pigment of your skin was a major factor in the application process.
I don’t think there is any group on a campus that you can require to accept you. The student government if ‘admission by votie.’ What are these merits that are being voted on? Looks, personality, ideas. Music groups have try outs and often the ‘winners’ are selected based in part on looks. The cheerleaders, the flag team, the campus tour guides? Everyone who wants to be one can’t be one.
Even as the parent of athletes, I get tired of this retort. In theory, anyone can play D1 sports if they have the “skill sets,” but in reality it does not happen unless you also have the appropriate body type, so sports are exclusionary based on appearance, too.
How many 5’2" 135lbs players were on your D1 football team, boolahi?
If you could run fast enough and were strong enough, you would have a place…I have many former teammates who were undersized, but made up for it in a variety of ways.
Let’s be real here. A 5’2" 135 pound player isn’t “undersized,” he’s tiny, and regardless of how fast or strong he is, the only place he’ll have on a D1 team is the bench or the practice squad. Darren Sproles is considered tiny by NFL standards, and he’s 5’6" 190.
And the sorority and fraternity invitations are largely based on a skill set too. Social skills are not something everyone has but can be developed. My daughter had NO sense of humor when she joined our family and since that was a skill we desired and admired, we worked on her. It took years for her to not burst out crying if someone teased her even just a little. She didn’t talk to adults or even many peers. She was pushy (pushing people) and had to learn not to be. Appearance is important to most Greek houses, but the expectations can vary from ‘neat and clean’ to ‘beauty queen.’ It’s their club, why can’t they decide what is important to them? Do the Elks and Lions Club and Masons let everyone in who wants to join? No they have requirements. Knights of Columbus? Gee, they want you to be Catholic.
Recruitment is not just looks. The members talk to the PNM, review their awards and prizes, look at gpa’s, consider special talents like singing or athletics. If you don’t like those conditions, form your own clubs.
A 5’2" guy is not going to make a competitive big time D1 team, but may make SOME football team. He has to meet the system half way and pick a school where he has a chance. A college student may not be able to join any club he wants, but some club(s) will welcome him.
They range from fellows from 4-9 and up, so, again I reiterate my point. I also find it ironic, that folks who have never played a down of D1 football (I’m assuming) have such strong opinions…
You found 14 “smallish” players out of 12,650 to prove…what? That it’s all about “skill set” and nothing about physical appearance? I would call that a “fail.”
My point, is that a position can be related to size, e.g. a left tackle that is 5’7, will have problems making a reach block, if you can run 4.2, any coach would give you an opportunity. That said, even in my example, the numbers are better than ever achieved at Alabama sororities and AA candidates.