<p>A "dream roof" I can understand. ;)</p>
<p>Well, I am thinking of three Ivy grads I know well. One is a teacher in a small town, struggling, over 50 and barey able to pay the mortgage on a very modest house. His wife works too.
Two others graduated about a decade ago. Again, a tiny house, very old cars, no money for vacations other than visiting the folks.
THen, there are lots of folks I know that are Harvard grads of 5 to 35 years ago. Some are very well off, but many are not.
Don't believe that an Ivy diploma will guarantee a great income, or even a great job.</p>
<p>nemom, from the people that I know, I have to concur with your experience. I just wish I could have all folks, who are considering expensive schools, who can't afford these schools without incurring substantial loans, read this thread and take what I am saying quite seriously.</p>
<p>Sadly, I still see folks in the art and music forum asking which of several noted expensive schools would be best for their kids,while also asking about financial aid.</p>
<p>I think it is sad that kids want to major in film from NYU,while incurring 80K+ in debt,which, as noted above , reduces their options considerably and probably actually reduces their chances of making it in film. </p>
<p>One of my daughter's friends lives with her single mom. Despite their financial struggle, this kid accepted University of Rochester under "Early Acceptance." She cancelled all of her other applications and found out that she only got 10K a year in scholarships. Although she does work hard in summers, she will have at least $60,000 of debt upon graduation and probably a lot more.</p>
<p>Two other friends of my daughter also have a single mom who isn't the richest person in the world, Instead of accepting a big scholarship for each of them from the University of Maryland, they attended two very expensive, well-known private schools that are a LOT more expensive than the Maryland option and majoring in things that would have been just as available at the University of Maryland. Insane!</p>
<p>I just wish I could shake some financial sanity into both the kids and the parents.</p>
<p>Great post taxguy! In their enthusiam, students and parents alike often make the fiscally irresponsible choice. We almost did too, but two years later I am very glad we didn't. Whew, that was close!</p>
<p>Graduating with $60,000 in undergrad loans is insane. But my DS will graduate with less than $15,000 in undergrad loans, and we can pay our EFC, since we are fairly frugal. So the "expensive private college" thing works for us!</p>
<p>Anxiousmom, I completely agree. Sadly, there are MANY kids that graduate with $80,000-$100,000+ in debts. They think nothing about it since the debt seems to come for "free." Thus, the kids and parents treat it like monopoly money. They do, however, get a shock when they graduate and get a payment schedule.</p>
<p>Taxguy,
Thanks for starting this thread. I think it's crucial for prospective arts majors and their families to consider the cost of their education. I suspect (hope?) that there are more parents and students who are considering costs than it seems from the posts you have read on the arts, music, and MT forums. </p>
<p>My D has been interested in performing from a very young age. Her first professional theatre job in our area was when she was 11. My husband and I saw early on that the majority of kids with whom she took private arts classes and the majority of kids who were auditioning and performing in our area came from quite well-to-do families. We were the exception. My husband and I are both music teachers. My husband is now retired from his public school job and I work as a private teacher. The parents of most of our D's arts classmates were airline pilots, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. The cost of private lessons and expensive classes did not seem to be an issue for these families. My family had to get creative to be able to afford the training that we felt our D needed. The costs we incurred while our D was young are but a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of some of the top arts colleges. </p>
<p>I know many families who encouraged their kids to apply to any college or conservatory they chose. The parents felt that they could cover the costs. However, I know several other families who have a much larger income than my family who have told their children that they would not allow them to audition for certain schools because of the high cost. IMHO,the cost conscious parents seldom post their concerns on the CC arts forums. I think they get the message that other posters either have no trouble affording the cost of expensive, big-name schools, or that financial aid in the form of grants and scholarships will make those schools affordable.</p>
<p>I am glad to be able to say that my D was informed of the perils of too much college debt by several members of the arts community in our area. She attended a performing arts H.S. Every year the school hosts a college information night. A frequent guest speaker at the school is the dean of the U. of Cincinnati's College Conservatory of Music (CCM). The dean is unequivocal in his advice to think VERY carefully about how much debt arts majors incur. He's quite upfront about how shaky the after-graduation job market is for artists. Many of my D's acting, voice, and dance teachers also spoke to her about the perils involved in attending a very expensive school. Not one teacher ever advised my child to choose the most prestigious school, cost be dam**d. The arts teachers know first hand what kind of salaries these kids can expect.</p>
<p>I have no problem with parents deciding to foot the bill for an expensive school. If they can afford to provide the education, more power to them. I do not think it is reasonable for an arts student to graduate with huge debt. My husband and I agreed that we would fund our D's education. We do not want her to start her life with a mountain of debt. Because my husband and I work in the arts, we cannot afford to pay off a mountain of debt either. Our D was told that certain schools would be off limits to her unless she were to get very large amounts of aid in the form of grants and scholarships - NOT loans! We are thankful that she was accepted to a good musical theatre program that is reasonably priced. She will graduate with around $12,000 to $15,000 in loans, which my husband and I have agreed we will pay. D will be asked to help with the loans if she is making decent money. We have managed to pay as she goes with the exception of the above loans. We hope to have all college debt paid off one year after D graduates.</p>
<p>I don't know how people can live with this debt. This is the very reason i have decided to stay in state and finish as many classes as i could at a community college. However, my only extra expense will be the 4k extra per year that i will be spending on a UC over a cal state. 8k over two years is doable. And considering i will come out with 10k or less in debt from the whole thing, i will be happy. But then that debt will be immediately paid off since i have had some money sitting in a muni market fund. So no debt for me, i cant say how good this feels. </p>
<p>I have seen people turn down UCLA for CSULB and people turn down Columbia for UCI. People are not stupid for these decisions, rather they are money conscious.</p>
<p>dancersmom, I am glad to hear that the overall debt that your daughter will incur will be no more than $15,000. This will make a big difference in her life as it will in yours since you are paying this debt.</p>
<p>Sadly, tens of thousands,and I think it is more like hundreds of thousands, of families are not so wise. They either leave their kids with huge debts by encouraging them to go to any college that seems to fit their fancy, no matter the cost, or the parent makes a choice to pay this debt. </p>
<p>Yes, the parents did indeed voluntarily assume this debt for their kids. My problem is that I am not sure that many of these adults understood what they are geting themselves into and how much it really will be costing them in terms of both lifestyle and retirement. Personally, I think it is very foolish for anyone to compromise their retirement but that is not my call.
I can only call attention of the cost of doing so and let the chips fall where they may. </p>
<p>Sadly, this thread will probably dissappear form the CC favorites and few will be remined of what I consider a very real peril to peoples' lives. They will constantly be asking "which school is better" among the choices of expensive options or which espensive LAC or Art school is better and not give a thought to long-term affordability.</p>
<p>Ok here's the scenario...</p>
<p>My decision has come down to two schools. </p>
<p>1st school:
I first visited Washington University in St. Louis last spring and have loved it since I first stepped on campus. I have been back 4-5 times and fall in love even more each time I am there. I am going to major in economics and go on to grad school to obtain a dual MBA/JD degree. Also, I will have the opportunity to play for the Bears Women's Basketball Team which has been a DIII powerhouse for over 20 years. I love the coaches, the team, and everyone I have met at WashU. It has pretty much been a dream of mine for the last year to attend WashU. I have gotten a pretty good financial aid package but it will still cost me $20,000 a year to attend.</p>
<p>2nd school:
On March 23, I was awarded one of the most prestigious scholarships in the state of Indiana. This scholarship is a four-year full-tuition scholarship to any accredited public or private university in the state of Indiana. If I choose to stay in Indiana, I will attend DePauw University. DePauw is a great school and has a strong reputation for its economics department. I went down to visit this week and was accepted into the Management Fellows Program. This is a prestigious program that will ensure me an awesome internship and great connections upon graduation. Also at DePauw, I will have the opportunity to play basketball. They also are DIII and ironically beat WashU in the national championship game (so no matter what I will be playing at an awesome and well-respected program). Now that I've had the opportunity to visit DePauw, I now love the coaches, the team, and everyone I have met there as well. If I chose to attend DePauw, I will be making money, because I was awarded a $17,000 scholarship before I received the full-ride. I have talked to my parents and it sounds like I will be able to pick out any new car I would like if I choose to attend DePauw also.</p>
<p>I just wanted to get some imput while I was making my decision.
DePauw or WashU??
At WashU I will come out with close to $80,000 in loans, at DePauw I will have nothing to pay at all.
Which one of these schools sounds like the better choice and opportunity?
Thanks in advance for your feedback.</p>
<p>Plymouth25, actually if you think you will come out with 80K in loans, it will be more. You also have to factor in inflation for tuition, room and board, miscellaneous expenses such as health insurance, transportation home, entertainment, supplies etc. Thus, the debt will more likely be 95K+</p>
<p>My suggestion, take Indiana and never look back. You will REALLY be happy that you have no loans upon graduation.Indiana is a very good school, and from your post, both schools seem to fit you well. This will also give you a lot of options. If you really don't like Indiana, you can always transfer if you do well and save two years of expensive tuition.</p>
<p>My suggestion becomes even more important if you have to borrow money for grad school/ law school. Take Indiana!</p>
<p>I've already replied on your other thread. Take Indiana and don't look back!</p>
<p>I agree. Since you like DePauw, it's a no-brainer. Also, the difference will be the $95K + the car. If you graduate with loan payments plus the cost of graduate school, the last thing you need is a monthly car payment.</p>
<p>Interesting thread. Does it get discussed every year?</p>
<p>I think it points to setting limits before you start your college search. Sons and I agreed that they would borrow no more than the Stafford limits in college and that I would pay my EFC of $12K each kid. They were welcome to apply to any college but grants and scholarship must make up any difference above the set limits or it was a no go.</p>
<p>They had a great choice of schools in this range both in-state, out of state, public, and private when the college aid packages came in. They also had to groan and cross off accepted schools that did not fit the money profile. One son really wanted to go to CU boulder but it was crossed off the list, as was Case Western due to poor financial aid packages.</p>
<p>IF you set your limits early and stick to them the type of agonizing we are seeing here would never happen.</p>
<p>One son will have no loans to attend USC and the other will have $2,500/year perkins loans to pay back at OSU. Plan ahead and stick to the plan to avoid this type of temptation.</p>
<p>drizzit, although there are elements of this thread discussed in other years, this is the first thread that I have seen over the years that covers the topic of expensive, well-know schools vs.lower cost alternative and the effect of colllege debts on the decision making process. Thus, it is probably the most comprehensive thread on the topic.</p>
<p>It is very sad that this thread will dissappear in a few weeks or months, and no one will remember the lessons taught here. They will go back to discussing "which school is best among the expensive alternatives"without even giving a thought to financial affordability.</p>
<p>People who will remember this thread are
(1) those who are grateful to make choices unemcumbered by debt, and
(2) those who are wondering how long the pain will last</p>
<p>I wish this thread would have been around when we were struggling with the options. It would have validated our decision and provided a voice of reason over those encouraging best-fit and dream-chasing at any cost.</p>
<p>Maybe it could be sticky forever! :D</p>
<p><em>sigh</em> my dream school is peppedine. The view, the community, the LAC I love. But for LA Majors, its probably not worth it, which really sucks. The total cost for Pepperdine is about $45,000 per year and they rarely give scholarships to avarage middle class families.</p>
<p>What an interesting thread! I have read through these posts with great interest - - the cost of college is amazing and I feel Taxguy did a wonderful job outlining the possible loan/debt realities. Obviously, this IS something that must be considered by the college student and his/her family and the more we know, the better decisions we can make. </p>
<p>However, isn't any kind of debt a very person decision? I would find it difficult to decide or even state an opinion on these boards as to how or where a person "should" spend his/her money. A friend of mine lives in an area where a 3000 sq ft home can be easily purchased for $250,000. A similar home in most areas of the country would easily cost double or triple what she paid. Is everyone who goes into more than $200,000 debt while purchasing a home wise or foolish? How much debt is too much? What about the parents who pay for private elementary schools or take out a loan to drive a $50,000+ car? These are such personal decisions that are made based on our priorities as well as our finances. We all make financial decisions that we feel are in our children's best interests. No one should attempt to make that kind of decision for others - - especially total strangers on the CC boards! Knowing what you are paying IS critical. However, people should not be judged by how they decide to spend their money and what is "worthy" debt!</p>
<p>Meandmyboys, You raised a couple of interesting points in your post.</p>
<p>First, I do think that there is "good" and "bad " debt. Real estate has been one of the best long term financial investments in this country. Thus, debt incurred there is probably a good thing. It becomes twice as good when you consider that your alternative to home ownership is to pay non-deductible rent and enrich some landlord type.</p>
<p>With colleges, there really are good, cheaper alternatives to incurring a lot of debt. Thus, I don't think that your real estate analogy is on point.</p>
<p>As for noting that incurring indebtedness is a personal decision, I completely agree. In fact, my posts note that I am NOT taking a position on whether people should or should not incur a particular debt. I just wanted parents and kids to make an informed decision about what it costs them and their families in incurring a large debt or paying large tuition bills at the cost of diminishing their retirement. There is a cost to everything, and sometimes the cost isn't that well known.</p>
<p>Too many posts here on CC involve the dreams of the kids and the fit of the school. Sadly, few ever really consider the cost of these dreams might actually lead to the death of the dream itself.
IKF725 noted that there are two groups of families in life:,"(1) those who are grateful to make choices unemcumbered by debt, and
(2) those who are wondering how long the pain will last"</p>
<p>There is actually a third choice, those who have regretted their financial mistakes because of reduced options in life and at retirement.</p>
<p>However, as you wisely noted, it' s their choice.</p>
<p>There was an older study that shows only 2% of all people who reach age 65 could retire with the same standard of living that they had before retirement. The rest must continue working, live on some form of charity or relatives or reduce their standard of living at retirement. I feel badly for those that fall into the 98% category, especially if they didn't understand all of the implications of the financial choices that they are making.Too many people forget about the newspaper articles of older people who must live on dog food because the failed to properly provide for their retirement. </p>
<p>At least an informed consumer will be a better consumer.</p>
<p>Meandmyboys, please also read my post numbered 80 in this thread. It really demonstrates the impact of spending $100,000 ( even without incurring debt) vs. investing the money over the lifetime of the child. I think it will give you something to think about.</p>