<p>Unless you can fully pay college costs out of pockets, when applying, parents and students need to use financial criteria -and practice non-attachment. Of the 6 schools my daughter got into, only one was knocked out because the $ package was so poor, and we suspected it might not be good beforehand but were willing to see how it turned out, since they do sometimes have good merit awards. She was sad to have to say no to that school, but had a lot of good alternatives. As a result, she is going to a very well-ranked private school that she likes and it will be affordable. I absolutely hate debt and want to spare her and us that burden.</p>
<p>lkf725, I do somewhat agree. Although I really do believe that the teaching and nurturing is usually better at some LACS than at most state universities, I do believe that the opportunities, research etc can be the same and maybe even better at some state universities for one-fourth of the price of the LAC.</p>
<p>Most private schools try hard to make parents think that their outrageous tuition differential over that of a state school is warranted. From what I have witnessed among my many contacts, I think that their claims are incorrect.</p>
<p>I am sure that many parents here have friends who have attended a wide variety of schools and have experience in this area.</p>
<p>My kids attend/will attend a university with a faculty to student ratio of 1:5. My flagship U is more like 1:20'ish, and even those numbers are suspect.</p>
<p>anxiousmom, the faculty:student ratio at my son's first LAC was 1:6; at my daughter's college it is is 1:10; and at my son's current public university is around 1:20. My son had more opportunities to interact with faculty at his LAC, but more opportunities in terms of course selection at the public university, and will have a funded internship in the fall that would not have been possible by any stretch of the imagination at the LAC. My daughter has some classes as large as 300 students at her college -- my son's classes at his public u. are never that large. </p>
<p>No one is disputing that private colleges offer a high quality education. The question is whether it is worth students or parents incurring substantial debt. By "substantial" we mean something that creates a financial hardship - for parents it may mean an amount that jeopardizes retirement planning, for the student it means an amount that would not be relatively easy to pay off with a modest annual salary. </p>
<p>I am fortunate that my kids both qualified for financial aid at their private colleges. I think that without a doubt in our case it would be worth somewhat more per year for each kid to attend a private college over a public -- though more due to the level of academics and quality of faculty than issues like personal attention. (My son gets plenty of personal attention at his public u - and I am a graduate of a much larger public state u. and also had plenty of personal attention -- it really isn't all that hard to get.) But that "somewhat more" is not $30K per year, which is what the current difference is between the sticker price for my son's public school tuition and private tuitions. +$5K/year? - sure. +$10K/year? maybe. +$20K+ a year? no way. There just isn't that much marginal difference in actual experience. </p>
<p>I just don't think parents or students should be sacrificing their future financial well being over intangibles. </p>
<p>Now, if you can afford the difference, fine -- it doesn't matter then what the actual difference in value is. You can pay for what you want. I mean, if you buy a $90 bottle of wine you won't get any more wine than if you buy a $9 bottle, and the chemical composition of the expensive wine is no different -- but rich people buy expensive wine all the time, and only a wine connoisseur would be able to tell you what makes the expensive wine worth $81 more -- but that's fine. The people who buy the $90 wine can afford it, and middle income people are aware they don't need to go into debt in order to buy expensive wines.</p>
<p>I respect taxguy's point of view. The following paragraph will sound siimple to experienced readers, but now especially in Spring, everybody's reading these columns including many new to the college application process. </p>
<p>For the sake of readers who do not know if they might qualify for need-based aid, especially for middle-class families in the gray area, you can't yet understand how much you'd pay for a private university with a sticker price north and far-north of $35K. Your "EFC" (expected family contribution) will be determined after you file the FAFSA (financial aid paperwork), so that's after next year's taxes are filed for a final result. FAFSA is sometimes also reworked by a handful of colleges under their own formulas (not a mystery or secret; just call the finaid office of the individual college and ask, "do you use FAFSA or rework it somewhat by your own formula?").
Some schools also use CSS outcomes to determine EFC.</p>
<p>I'd only add not to let the sticker price of the private schools cause your family to rule out inquiring into the private colleges. If there is need you will receive help fully to fund whatever isn't your EFC (from some elite schools the words "fully meet need-based aid" are golden, and that's sure different from "we'll help you meet your need"). When they meet your partially, then you hear about the dreaded "gap" between what the school offers you next April and your EFC. On top of that, there is "merit aid" from some (not all) private schools and you'll never know til you compete if you are the "meritorious" winner.</p>
<p>Some families use a calculator to get a rough estimate of their EFC before the whole process begins, which is very very wise to do. It's not a definitive answer to how much aid you'd receive, but at least tells you if you're in the playing field. </p>
<p>The problem I see is that all the searches, visits, painful list-making etc. happens before anybody really knows their financial aid award from a private college/uni. By the time the kid and parents know, they've already invested tremendous emotion and time, written lots of essays. THEN, if the school doesn't award enough (or any) money, the parents are heartsick to say "no" and the kids feel their parents are taking away their "dream school" just b/c of money.</p>
<p>Taxguy wants families to consider the impact on their retirement more seriously and not be cavalier about their own parental needs to sacrifice too much for their kids. He also makes the economist's good argument that the differential between the two edcuations (private and public) can't be worth some of the extreme sacrifices he encounters in his practice as an accountant. Clearly, he's seeing much late-stage regret over huge loans taken out at middle age by parents, or if parents are unwilling, burdensome debt on the shoulders of college graduates that limit their choices in their first decades after college. </p>
<p>The only balance I want to express is that there are families who are surprised positively that they qualify for need-based aid; and kids who are surprised positively that they nab the few merit-aid awards at individual colleges. Neither of these can be counted upon, and I'd urge all parents to be mindfulthat the EFC isn't an award answer, it's just a piece of data the colleges use in making their award. Hopefully, they get close to matching your EFC by a combination of grants/scholarship (no repay needed), student loans
(repayable over time at low interest rates, but many advisors writing in to this column warn against student loan burdens above $15K, perhaps 20K, and I'd bow to their wisdom). And of course financial aid packages always come with the expectation that the student will work on campus (many do about 10 hours per week) where there are many jobs circa $8-10/hour, but some rare students have skills already to secure better jobs off-campus. Plus, of course, summer jobs by students. Any highschool savings of the student are expected to be applied fully to college.
Parents with large assets (paid-up houses, boats..) do not fare as well as the salary slaves still paying off mortgages. Since I assume parents who rent rather than own are worse-off than I am, I assume they have a chance at
being deemed worthy of finaid by a private college/uni.</p>
<p>There are no guarantees, but I only encourage that parents and students CONSIDER a private school because it's possible to engender enough aid from a private school that the actual gap YOU face is different than the initial sticker difference you read about in the costs. But if a student is permitted to apply to an expensive school, for the sake of seeing how it all shakes out,<br>
they should really be forewarned against falling in love with it. </p>
<p>Put it into an understandable example. If you can afford a $10,000 car, of course you can look at a $40,000 car and it will be much shinier. There's a program whereby SOME families who qualify can get help towards the $40,000 car but we won't know til we're practically standing in the check-out line. Are you willing to hold back enough emotion that we can all investigate both kinds of cars to see if we're eligible for the $40,000 package once we hear whether they'll help us out. </p>
<p>Instead of spelling it out like this in advance, I think families are saying "if we can afford it..." or "we'll see how the money comes in" and all the kids can see is some evidence that the parents could buy this or that, so they feel angry
at this time next year if the preparation wasn't done correctly from the outset of the search process.</p>
<p>In our situation, what began as an initial comparison between a private university for $40K (tuition, room, board) and our state university for $15K (tuit, rm, bd) morphed into a choice between $20K at the privates once the financial aid packages came in. So it became a $5K difference, and we felt it was worth THAT difference. This happened 3 times. We're a middle-class family. We would have never known any of this if we hadn't had the UNMITIGATED GALL to apply to privates and publics, do all that paperwork, hold our breath, ask the finaid offices to review our packages as well when initial awards came out. That's our story and we're sticking to it.</p>
<p>I'll add that my H is the financial handler in our house and I do all the scheduling and visiting chores relevant to college processes. So if I've misstated ANYTHING above, I humbly welcome corrections, just no flames if possible.</p>
<p>Great job ^^paying3.</p>
<p>Any chance you can copy/ paste it into a new thread too (for the 2012's) so it doesn't get lost in here</p>
<p>Well, thanks, I'd be willing to but only if Taxguy takes the lead on that...and includes my posting #325 above. I really think Taxguy's wisdom should be read by all, but would be willing if he includes my posting. Let's see if he wants to take that lead... it's his thread. And I've learned a lot from him this year :)</p>
<p>Paying3tuitions, I loved your post number 325. It should be read along with my first post by ALL Parents and kids. It does summarize my statements better than I could. Bravo.</p>
<p>Great post Paying3, I thnk you've summed it up vey well.</p>
<p>Yes, and I liked your point about taking the time and effort to apply to expensive schools which you knew offered the possibility of strong aid. You have to do that research find those possibilities and then you have to wait and see where it pans out.</p>
<p>I know numerous students who have less expensive college costs at expensive private schools than they would have had at a public university. It is possible but you can't know in advance and so need a range of schools, including one or more financial safeties.</p>
<p>hi,</p>
<p>i'm wondering how realistic it would be for me to attend this school: </p>
<p>this is my award package for the year. i would be transferring as a sophomore with independent status. </p>
<p>(Parsons)</p>
<p>university scholars award- 3k
fed workstudy program-2k
federal perkins loan-2k
federal sub stafford loan-3,500
federal unsub stafford-4k
bfa scholarship-14,900
bfa dean's scholarship-5k</p>
<p>total:34,400</p>
<p>the estimated coa is 48,600 </p>
<p>so far... my parents won't contribute a cent. I may have to beg them to co-sign seeing as how i'm not being approved for an alternative loan to make up the difference. anyone have any opinions/recommendations/tips? what are my options on choosing a lender looking like?</p>
<p>also what kind of debt am i looking at on average with other art students that may be in a similar situation?</p>
<p>Your figure of 34,400 includes lots of different kinds of things. The first thing you should do is to divide those elements of the financial aid offer into three parts:
1. Scholarships/grants
2. Work-study
3. Loans</p>
<p>Then take COA and subtract scholarships. Now look at the figure. You could then subtract work-study and a conservative estimate for the amount of money you could earn over the summer. What is left is the amount you will have to borrow or get funded otherwise (such as through additional scholarships, parental/relative contribution).</p>
<p>i got 23,700... how do you guys go about choosing a lender? so far i only applied at chase and they rejected me. the interest was really high i just wanted to see if i would get approved. so i would have to take out 14,200 a year in private after 9,500 in federal. </p>
<p>i feel really lost as to where i'm supposed to get the money. parsons said they don't have a recommendation list of lenders anymore.</p>
<p>I don't have a list of lenders (but perhaps someone else could help you with that), but try to pare down how much you would have to borrow. Do the work study and work a lot over the summer.</p>
<p>Also, where are you now? Are your parents contributing now? Is it really worthwhile to transfer? I'm not saying it's not -- it may be.</p>
<p>I'm living in an apartment in Pennsylvania. There aren't any reputable art schools for fashion here. Well in Philidelphia but as far as I know it's an all girls school. I really want to get out of here and be in a community where there is an art/design industry and I'm able to make contacts. I think they offer more internship opportunities than I'll receive anywhere else. Right now I'm closer to Pittsburgh if anywhere. My parents aren't contributing now... to anything. </p>
<p>I'm definitely going to have to transfer somewhere. I was accepted to Otis and Pratt too but they didn't offer as much money and didn't accept all my transfer credits. Unfortunately I didn't apply to any public schools... but again the public schools in Pennsylvania aren't known for fashion design so it wouldn't have really mattered.</p>
<p>Insomb, there are a number of state schools that offer fashion design, have good programs, and are cheaper than most private schools. Examples would be FIT in NY and University of Cincinnati.</p>
<p>Paying3tuitions, the KEY is to make sure that both the parents and the kids don't fall in love with those expensive private schools in case there is little aid offered. In my experience, this is very hard to not do, and I think it is almost impossible. After all, many private schools have these really nice brochures, great looking buildings, ivy covered exteriors, fabulous statues, well design interiors etc. It really is tough to approach them with detachment.</p>
<p>taxguy, I'm following up on sax's suggestion now..</p>
<p>how about if i put together a new thread that:</p>
<pre><code> starts with your post Number 1,
then my post 325,
(any other of your faves, taxguy--write the numbers back & I'll slice them in)
a link to THIS entire thread
</code></pre>
<p>It needs a title to invite new readers, espec those looking for 2012</p>
<p>Which title do you prefer:
For Class of 2012, Important thread from last year re: Finaid</p>
<pre><code> For Class of 2012, Finaid for Dummies, Start Here...
Financial Aid Perspective, a Primer for 2012 applicants
</code></pre>
<p>I'm not much of a marketer. If you can write a better title, I'll use it.</p>
<p>Suggestions for which forum of CC to put it under, also welcome.</p>
<p>Then I'll repost HERE, but I'd like you to sweep it and post it under YOUR name b/c you're the expert on this, really</p>
<p>Paying3 tuitions, there are a number of good posts here; thus, it is hard to prune. I would recommend the following posts as essential and placed in this order:</p>
<p>Post number: 1, 80,225, 230, 255, 293, 311, and 325.</p>
<p>Other good posts that you might want to use in your judgment are:</p>
<p>Posts number 13,14,16, 18, 20,21, 22,28,30, 51,57,58, 76, 79,90, 101,103, 109,112, 113, 114, 115, 118, 119,120, 124, 125, 126, 127, 133, 144, 145, 153, 173, 174, 198, 203, 207, 209, 218, and 219</p>
<p>Whew, obviously, these may be too many, and you may want to prune some using your judgment. </p>
<p>Sadly, the moderators such as Roger_Dooley lets many very important threads get buried instead of keeping this as a sticky archived thread,which I believe is a BIG Mistake. Maybe if enough people write him, he will have a section for important archived threads.</p>
<p>Good luck</p>