Should you incur substantial debt for that "dream" school? or an arts major?

<p>simba- I would also say there is a third issue at play here: whether the intended major/career of the student should impact how much money a parent is willing to pay, or how much debt a student is willing to go into, for the education.</p>

<p>I would argue that the answer is "yes" to that one. Is a degree is painting or theatre worth 100k, when the recipient is going to have to be waiting tables or working retail to get by for many years afterwards, hoping for that big break? No. Is a degree in business or accounting worth that much? It could be, because assuming the 100k outlay is for a school with a good reputation (which goes far in those industries), the recipient will be placed in a high-paying job which will allow them to pay off that debt quickly.</p>

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<p>And allows our kids to have choices. Hubby and I decided when eldest was 5 to start saving/investing for college (I know, late to the game) so that she (and 5 year younger sibling) would not choose a college based on financial reasons. </p>

<p>Eldest D will graduate from college debt-free next year, which is a good thing--because she hasn't been able to figure out any after-college plans yet [wide-eyed emoticon here]!</p>

<p>Larationalist, however, IF the parent is the one going into debt (as opposed to the student), then I feel (and this is truly a personal decision or viewpoint, not right for everyone), that the education is as worth the price NO matter the major. I never even thought of the worthiness of the pricetag in relation to the college major my kids wanted to pursue. I don't see the price of college in terms of their earning power and which field is more worth paying an education for. That's just me.</p>

<p>Also, with regard to your assumption about a theater major....I disagree that the graduate is going to be waiting tables or working retail for many years hoping for a big break. Some might do that but that is a very broad assumption. In my view, for starters, a person with a theater degree is still a person with a college degree who is employable in many fields. There are many skills a theater student possesses that are attractive to a wide array of employers. As well, a person who has majored in theater and usually still studied some liberal arts and has become educated and is capable of doing more than performing. Zillions of employed people are working today in fields that are not in their college major concentration. But their college degree certainly was a boost to becoming gainfully employed.</p>

<p>Since I do have a child pursuing a BFA in Musical Theater (and she indeed takes liberal arts classes too), I can tell you that while I hope she succeeds in professional work ON stage, I am very confident in her ability to get work in general and highly doubt she will ever be waiting tables (though that doesn't pay too shabbily in some places, lol). For instance, in her case, she has done a bunch of musical directing, as well as accompanying, and is already paid to do such work and she is still only 18 and doesn't have a degree yet. She is a skilled pianist and music arranger and choreographer. She is skilled at more than one thing. Further, she is a gifted writer in general and also creates shows and such. I feel sure she will be able to do a variety of jobs related to her college major regardless if she is cast or gets a big break as a performer. Even if she never got work in the theater industry or music industry, I know her education, intelligence, creativity, writing skills and leadership will help her get work beyond waiting tables or doing retail. She has already been employed in her field and has also done professional work. I only mention this because she ain't all that unusual. I know a lot of kids in her field and not a one who is waiting tables.</p>

<p>After being told that they would fund my private university fees, my parents changed their minds after freshman year. Their perogative. I paid half the fees--but it was a combination of debt, savings, RA year, year off. Paying that ticket allowed me to make my own choices though--some of which they were violently opposed to.</p>

<p>In certain professions, the brand name of the schools makes a huge difference. The brand name CAN be worth the aggravation of debt. Also, debt is a reality of business life. There is no reason to be terrified of reasonable debt. $100k for an architect would be unreasonable, it would be suicidal, but $25K should be a no-brainer.</p>

<p>However, in my view, no matter what degree the student earns, they must also ensure that they have some employable skill to go along with the degree. I am not a big fan of 'finding yourself' at university. I'd prefer my sons knew which course of study they wanted --and which skill they planned to develop alongside that intellectual advancement. Architecture students should make sure their CAD skills are amazing becuase that is what will get them the best job.</p>

<p>Having attended art classes at university from 16 onwards, I would not pay $160K for an art degree. The student would be better off doing apprenticeships with working artists. Professional athletes, dancers and actors are somewhat similar. I'm not sure full freight 'college' is the best place to 'learn' those professions.</p>

<p>berurah - I can also recommend the book. Since I worked in Haiti for over 5 years (commuting from the US, from 1998-2003), I could really see in my mind the descriptions of life there. Very interesting man.</p>

<p>Back to the topic here: is it worth a six-figure debt for ANY degree? In my opinion, in a word, No.</p>

<p>

All three of my daughters own the same shirt with the simple saying:
"I'm an actress. May I take your order?" :D</p>

<p>That said, Soozie is right...there is much work to be had in related fields, and a dedicated MT major could wind up taking any number of other jobs related to his/her field. It is my obvervation, however, that those jobs are not very high paying. Our particular area is <em>FULL</em> of actors who are working at local children's theaters as directors, accompanying on the piano, or choreographing in order to make ends meet. Unfortunately, the stereotype of the unemployed actor who's waiting tables while holding out for a big break does haves roots in reality. If one were in a position such as this while trying to pay back a huge school debt, it may prove to be disastrous.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

<p>p.s. dig~
Thanks for the second on the rec!</p>

<p>soozievt & berurah- I was just searching for an example to make my point. Obviously, each needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, taking into account all of the factors that go into employability. The broader point was that I believe that the more employable one's degree makes them, the more money that degree can be said to be worth investing in it. </p>

<p>digmedia- is it worth it for any degree? I would say it is worth is for someone pursuing an MBA from a top school, a J.D., or an M.D., because someone who can from the high five figures to low six figures right out (or withing a few years) of school can pay back that debt quickly by living below their means.</p>

<p>Education is an investment- what will your investment make for you? Naturally, if you can afford the investment outright, then it's less important that it pays big in the end. If you have to beg borrow and hopefully not quite steal to make the investment, then you have a different set of expectations. A parent who can send their child to the school of their choice without making the child take on debt is giving a very special gift.</p>

<p>An old friend of mine has 3 daughters who have talent in music. They all wanted to become musician and were told unless they could become top two in the field they should do something else instead. It turns out two of them after music degree went to medical school. One who is prettiest and has star quality become musician, won several top prizes in international competition and was eventually tenured in a famous orchestra. Debt wasn’t much an issue in their case, as they all have good merit scholarship into music field and worked with top musician. But it also show that how difficult it is to become successful in the field of art and music.</p>

<p>taxguy, we consolidated S's loans summer of 2005 after he'd just graduated. I recall a 20 year payback schedule was standard; I don't think 15 years was an option (don't remember for sure). With that 20 yr schedule his payments, for 40K total indebtedness, are quite manageable. 150 K might be another story but realistically how many come out of undergrad with that kind of loan? </p>

<p>I also believe his consolidation rate was sub 3%...is that possible as recently as 2 yrs ago? I know rates in general have risen in past 20 months but 8% vs 3% makes for a ton more interest.</p>

<p>I 'll admit I had some reservation about his debt amount but unfortunately what you major in does matter. He majored in an "employable" field (CS, and made 6 figures first full year out); were he an aspiring not yet famous actor waiting tables (which would be fine!) I would however be concerned about the loans.</p>

<p>larationalist I know people in medical and dental school coming out with 200, even 300K debt. One (300 plus) just recently took a radiology residency...he'd prefer pediatrics but doesn't think they make enough to pay back that incredible loan.</p>

<p>my federal loans are also consolidated at 2.85%, with my one private load at 7.8%. I believe current rates for federal stafford loans are closer to 6.9% now? Either way, once you get into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least some of that will be in private loans.</p>

<p>Sax notes,"Every one of us has our own answer to the question "is one school experience worth $100,000 more than another school experience"</p>

<p>Sax: Please reread my posts. The question isn't "is one school experience wrth $100,000 more than another school experience." The question is, "whether one school experience with the supposed increase in potential earnings capacity, worth losing between 1.6 million and 2.3 million at retirement due to spending an extra $100,000 today? This is really the economic marginal cost.</p>

<p>I want to make it clear what my various posts are saying. There seems to be some confusion. I am not suggesting that the question is "whether one school's education along with its alledged earnings capacity is worth spending an extra $100,000 over that of another school." The question is whether one school's education along with its alledged earnings capacity is worth spending $100,000 more today over that of another school and giving up between 1.6million and 2.3 million at retirement,which that money would produce." This is the economic cost of going to a higher cost school that we accountant don't filter into the equasion. This is also in addition to any interest costs arising from taking out loans.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The broader point was that I believe that the more employable one's degree makes them, the more money that degree can be said to be worth investing in it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't agree with this philosophy. However, once again, the issue is different if the student him/herself incurs all the debt load. If so, he/she has to take on a debt that is doable with their potential income. But as far as if it is worth "investing in" whether or not the parent can pay for it outright OR like us, get financial aid which includes loans for part of it, for me IS worth it no matter what the major. I don't care what my kids major in, nor what the potential income is for their fields. How much I am willing to pay for college is not related to their major or potential income as far as what "it is worth." An education is what is worth it to me for its own sake. It isn't more worth it if it is a better school or if the major they do has the potential of earning more. In fact, my own background is in the field of education, a low paying field. I went to college and graduate school (the latter being Harvard). My education was worth it to me. I have never earned very much at my jobs. </p>

<p>To me the degree is indeed worth investing in regardless of the money that can be made in a certain field (again presuming the student isn't responsible for all the payback for the education.....if they are, that's different). We never considered the idea that our kids pay for their education and it is just part of my culture that the parents take on the cost as our own parents did. I'm not against it but it simply is our choice to find a way to pay for it and get them set up this way with an education. </p>

<p>A degree is a degree no matter the major. People get jobs all the time not even in their major. When you study a major, it is not the ONLY thing you study and it is not the only thing you can do. Even my kid who is training in musical theater, is currently studying Sociology of War and told me today she is going to register for History of Philosophy. She will be an educated person and that never goes out of style and is beneficial in the long run in terms of employability. I know my D's own field is not well paying. But I can't imagine her not pursuing it. It is her life and passion and frankly she's good at it. I don't know what jobs she'll ever land. As I said she is already paid to perform, to musically direct, teach, transcribe music, and accompany. She has a friend who recently graduated from her program and while he was trained as she will be to be a musical theater performer, he got a job right out of school as pianist for a National Tour of a well known musical at a very high salary. Who knows if my D will get work but I think she'll get something. My kids, as well as myself, chose their fields out of interest and we never discussed potential earnings as they relate to a college major. I never did considered income potential when choosing my college major and neither have my children. My life is still fine.</p>

<p>taxguy, looking at the question as you now framed it in post #61.....which is not quite like the original question about a degree in the arts or about a "dream school"......but now is more about if incurring debt for college is worth it versus money for retirement.....well, admittedly I don't have money for retirement saved up (which is unfortunate) but no matter what, I would pay for my kids' education because I value that over anything else I could spend the money on. It was a given for us and never anything we have thought twice about or weighed. We were educated by our parents and we feel strongly to find a way to pass that on, whatever it takes. That isn't better or right but it is our personal philosophy. We didn't consider what else the money can buy instead.</p>

<p>Soozievt, actually I am addressing two points: one was about the large amount of debt and the other about the economic cost of attending an expensive school even if no debt is incurred.</p>

<p>As for your willingness to pay for your kid's education regardless of cost, I certainly applaud your zeal and commitment toward your kid's education. </p>

<p>Being rich isn't about making a budget. Budgets, in my opinion, don't work. Sucess in life is about prioritizing, in my humble opinion. We all have limited funds. The question is: where do we place those funds. If we want to fund our kids' education regardless of cost then we must cut back elsewhere such is in our retirement funding.</p>

<p>The reason that I started this thread is NOT to make those choices for people but to address the financial cost of making the choice that you made and cost of making a choice to incur large amounts of debt. I do understand that this is a conscious choice. I was just alarmed that too many parents and kids are not making these choices with all the possible facts at their disposal. To me most people seem to feel that finances are a sidenote and not part of the main body of decision making for college selections. This was certainly true in our high school. I just wanted to provide a counter point to this way of thinkings so that everyone can really understand what they are giving up when they choose expensive colleges or incur high amounts of debt.</p>

<p>Yes, I do understand. Cost was not a factor in choosing a particular college for us, not because we are rich (we aren't....our kids receive financial aid), but because this was a top priority. </p>

<p>The worth of each school was the same no matter how good the school was, how prestigious it is, or what the intended major was to be.</p>

<p>In the case of NO debt being incurred, the cost also would not have mattered because to me, the college education is worth it and not based on the name of the school or the worth of the major.</p>

<p>Great analysis, taxguy. I think that one factor overweighted by both students and parents is the effect of the college on salary. While in a few fields there may be a significant school effect, most employers aren't going to pay a lot more for a prestige degree. There's a common belief that getting into a top school justifies any amount of debt - unfortunately, that's usually not the case.</p>

<p>In response to those who felt that funding the best, name-brand education at any cost is worth it, let me add the following: </p>

<p>Being rich isn't about making a budget. Budgets, in my opinion, don't work. Sucess in life is about prioritizing, in my humble opinion. We all have limited funds. The question is: where do we place those funds. If we want to fund our kids' education regardless of cost then we must cut back elsewhere such is in our retirement funding.</p>

<p>The reason that I started this thread is NOT to make those choices for people but to address the financial cost of making the choice that you made and cost of making a choice to incur large amounts of debt. I do understand that this is a conscious choice. I was just alarmed that too many parents and kids are not making these choices with all the possible facts at their disposal. To me most people seem to feel that finances are a sidenote and not part of the main body of decision making for college selections. This was certainly true in our high school. I just wanted to provide a counter point to this way of thinkings so that everyone can really understand what they are giving up when they choose expensive colleges or incur high amounts of debt.</p>

<p>I'm glad everybody agrees with everybody else on this thread. Problem is, in your world there'd be no artists, actors or dancers with intellectual vision. You cannot quite fathom how some kids will choose material sacrifices to engage their imagination on a daily basis by working professionally in the arts after a top quality experience at a college? </p>

<p>Having no fear, I'll weigh in to say that my S, who graduated from a top LAC with a major in Theater/Dance and Music, just visited home for l0 days. It's the first break he's had since graduating nearly 2 years ago. He brought his girlfriend, a gifted teacher of autistic children. He doesn't own a car b/c he lives in Manhattan where owning a car is a second job. He has roommates to keep down costs, and they're okay. He knew that all ahead of time when he chose his college majors. It's just the pricetag for a way of life that he chose.</p>

<p>The staggering humanity and decency of his LAC environment shaped him into a kind, intelligent man who now attracts support from others when roles are cast. He's a classy guy. He enjoys the trust of others, a decade older than himself, who are starting a new theater company, and who knows where that will go? He acts in one production after another, meanwhile working several jobs that only an educated person could perform, including: adult literacy tutoring, SAT tutoring, Hebrew school teacher, commercial photographer. He also works on assignment with a nonprofit organization that performs plays in the city's middle schools against bullying. The actors perform in the school auditorium, then conduct discussions in the students' classrooms. I can't imagine anything more socially useful, and well-paying by the hour, as there is a grant behind this work. </p>

<p>The college absolutely focussed his intellect so that he can research acting roles for their historical context, emotional nuance and more. He will be acting in a Shakespearian production this fall, and in June a new translation of a Spanish playwright's masterwork, "Life Is A Dream." </p>

<p>Because he anticipated a frugal lifestyle following college, he worked his tail off in campus jobs and each summer while some of his friends did whatever. I was stunned with how SMALL his debt was when he graduated, for he had already ripped into those student loans. Aside from us covering his health insurance, he is entirely self-supporting and has been so since graduation. That's actually a better track record than some with other more practical majors. </p>

<p>I just want to weigh in that there are some students for whom a college major in the arts is the right choice. If you know anyone pursuing this path, you'll quickly find that they are passionate that the lifestyle frugality is worth it to do what they find redemptive. They measure their success by the quality of their performance and the ensemble. When my S meets friends in the city who are making a fortune now in I-Banking, they are still friends; however, he can't join them for ski trips or afford to be their roommates any more. His clothing is excellent and elegant as theirs, because he hawks designer labels on ebay and buys them for dollars-- not hundreds of dollars. He looks turned out and handsome as they do. He remains their treasured friend, and as each new graduate decides to move to NYC, he's among the first friend they call b/c he knows so much of the city, having made films and met people all over. He guides them to neighborhoods, housing and more. If they eat a pricey restaurant, he joins them and eats more simply, and he DOESN"T MIND. </p>

<p>I feel, as long as he's paying off his loan and supporting himself, we made exactly the right choice to set up his mind and spirit for the rest of his life. We arranged a second mortgage on our house but we're managing that, and if we never retire to one of those pretty picture places in the South, I just don't mind AT ALL. This was the value system of my family; education was paramount over things. </p>

<p>If the acting doesn't pan out in a few years, he can apply at age 30 to law school because of his top quality undergrad education, and will have no trouble gaining entry as long as his LSAT's ring in, which I'd expect they would. </p>

<p>Anyway, a certain unchallenged crassness on this thread finally got to me.
Some haven't forgotten that there is also a civilization to create through the arts. I'm proud that my kid is using his college degree to work in that direction. </p>

<p>And, he may never retire with those extra millions that the differential provides had he gone to a community college. I'm absolutely sure, however, he'd refuse to make that trade. </p>

<p>I do not apply this to graduate school. My D, who has a Religion major from a top LAC, intends to obtain a teaching degree as a literacy specialist but from a state college, rather than a prestige school. As Roger Dooley just pointed out, there are some professions for which a prestige degree won't bring in a better salary, and teaching with all of its union steps is one of them. She'd rather have the intellectual quality of her undergrad degree, coupled with a simple straightforward professional training at a state school for the teaching certifications, to work. There, the degree for $5K/annum sounds adequate to her and she rejects the thought of applying to the elite universities for teacher education at $40K with great professors and name recognition, although she could certainly qualify. So we're not all crazy around here. It depends on the degree. Maybe we have it upside-down to put all the bucks into the undergrad, but our own experience as parents tells us that it set us up for a life of flexibility, imagination, resourcefulness, and great friends.</p>

<p>Paying3tuitions, I congratuate your son for the foresight and hard work in order to reduce his debt. As I mentioned in my thread, I am NOT making the choices for people to take less expensive schools over more expensive, name-brand alternatives. I am simply pointing out the financial cost of doing so and of the financial cost of incurring lots of debt.</p>

<p>Also I absolutely agree that we as a nation need the artists, musicians, philosophers, teachers etc. It is sad, though,that a number of these folks may be relegated to lower paying jobs and, compounding that problem, may have incurred a lot more debt that that of your son.</p>

<p>. Maybe schools should charge different tuitions based on the major incurred? Should a computer science major pay the same tuition as an education major? Maybe the government can step in and subsidize certain majors. Who knows. This isn't my specialty, and I really hope that this thread doesn't degrade into trying to address these issues.</p>

<p>Would your son have been the same had he majored in theater at a good in-state unversity instead of expensive LAC, who knows? All I can say is "please look over the financial analysis found in this thread, especially in posts number 1, 38 and 40. Be an informed consumer and understand the real cost in incurring high tuition. Understand the real cost of incurring a huge debt load for undergraduate studies because of a poor financial aid package. If you, as some others, feel that the cost is worth it, go for it." At least, though, understand exactly what you are giving up!</p>