<p>GrooveGirl....I absolutely AGREE that it is possible to find the positive in any situation and make it work somehow. Many have parents who for whatever reason cannot or will not fund the education. Many don't get into their ideal schools or their hoped for major, etc. Where there is a will, there is a way to pursue one's path and dreams. People can "make it" coming out of any college. </p>
<p>On another note.....I understand your parents wanted you to get a "practical degree". I know there are many parents who will only fund certain majors or certain schools they prefer or think are better or more worth it. For me, we didn't care which schools they picked (not talking the money factor but simply the choice of schools) as any school was worth it to us if they felt that school met their articulated criteria. We also did not care which major they picked. We want them to pursue whatever they are interested in. I am not saying this is a better approach but simply the only one we ever considered. Nobody told me which college to pick or which major to pick and so I guess I am passing on that same philosophy.</p>
<p>I certainly applaud you for what you are doing on your own too!</p>
<p>Also, I have never even thought twice that my kid is in an arts major. I can't imagine her NOT being in it! Her field is inextricably part of who she is as a person. I can't imagine her not pursuing it. It is who she is and as she has stated, her "raison d'etre". We never even discussed what major she'd pursue....we've known it for years before she applied to college. We never questioned it and support it.</p>
<p>Soozievt-
I don't think anyone is trying to disparage anyones choices - just a much needed reality check is in order for many students and parents just starting this college selection process.</p>
<p>Good luck to your daughter in the arts. Its a tough field to get a break in. Having just gone through a year of watching my son and his fellow graduates look for work in the creative field was an eye-opener. The jobs are scarce and at least in the beginning, of a temporary nature. Health insurance was a real concern. Chances are her career will be in the expensive big city. But you know what? They have fun and to be young in the big city is "priceless". We do all the worrying!</p>
<p>soozievt: (SUBSIDIZED SUBSTANCE MISUSE) I just want to clarify that I see some kids who are clearly going down a very wrong path at a very high cost; severe 'down and out'. Perhaps I should have not broadened the discussion that taxguy so appropriately prompted. I see a number of 'strung out' kids. The colleges do what they can, as do advisors and profs. It seems, however, that the parents are either clueless, in denial, or just hate taking that bumper sticker off the back window. I guess this topic has more to do with immediate return on investment, or gaining 'differentiation advantage' once admitted. Nevertheless, I have rarely seen the issue discussed on CC, and I thought it an appropriate tangent to the discussion started by taxguy. Its a touchy issue that all parents should reflect upon, so perhaps it is worthy of its own thread.</p>
<p>To go into debt to finance ALL of an undergraduate degree is a significant problem. The students usually feel they need to wait for graduate school when the debt load is very high. Many do not continue with higher education due to many factors that are normal in life - getting married, kids, etc. </p>
<p>A debt of $25,000 is about as high as one needs to go for undergraduate work. LESS is better! There are so many scholarships and grants available, students need to research those more than the loans available.</p>
<p>I agree that some colleges may "fit" better or open more doors in terms of employment or professional school. But it's all relative and I don't believe that a school name will ultimately supercede the student's ability and talent. Look at performers, CEO's and scientists. They come from all sorts of backgrounds. So, "NO", I don't think that the dream school is worth any price. DH and I had a relatively small amount of college debt and it was a burden, so I can't imagine how a young person can ever get out from under a $250K loan balance. And we are certainly not going to assume that debt and live out our retirement years in the same poor position in which we started our marriage.</p>
<p>Our son wanted to attend CMU also. We wanted him to be able to go. But YIKES, be reasonable! With almost no financial aid, we'd all be in the poor house. I'm pretty sure he'll be fine with his 4.0 from the state school down the road. :)</p>
<p>You are absolutely correct! Your son will do well with a 4.0 from almost any college or university. </p>
<p>We are encouraging our S to pursue many scholarship options. Some are offered through the college/university, but there are many outside scholarships available. Many of the outside scholarships are in $500 or $1000 increments, but they add up. With what he is able to earn with summer employment and campus work/study coupled with scholarships and what we can contribute for him, he can probably graduate without loans. However, once he enters graduate school, he will have to rely on loans unless we come into a surprise fortune waiting for us.</p>
<p>Ikf725: The thing that bothers me is that outside my office door sits some literature from the top consulting and investment banking firms; the literature that they give to potential clients. Some of the brochures list their new employees with where they graduated from in bold letters; of course, they are listing the Ivy and top LAC kids. So, in effect, they are branding their services to clients based upon the brand ID of the college they recruit from. This, of course, has been going on for centuries, but it's just amusing that we now do it, not based upon some archaic notion of 'blue blood', but instead, on the presumption that HS performance and aptitude test scores, which determine college placement, predict future performance; a dismal science, to say the least.
I suspect that there is some early 'effect' of 'prestige' on career options and earnings, but, that statistically, the effect decreases over the long run. How does the old Dylan song go; 'we meet again on the way down'.</p>
<p>I went to a state/public university for my undergaduate degree. I majored in Biology and my undergraduate student loans are around $18,000. I had financial aid plus the honors scholarship. I have been accepted to do graduate studies at NYU which is my dream school, however after carefully reviewing my financial package I am beginning to have second thoughts. Although my GPA is above 3.60, they are only offering me a scholarship that is only worth close to $9,000. The rest is loans which together come up to $16,000 for one semester alone. The total tution cost is about $54,000. I am no longer sure if going to my dream school is worth it. </p>
<p>I can totally understand parents and students who do no wish to get so much in debt.</p>
<p>My goal is to have my kids be inspired to be their best and part of that inspiration is exposure to the Ivy League schools. I work with some Ivy League graduates and I have seen the doors that have opened to them that would have been closed had they graduated from Cal State or University of Idaho or ?? My kids are young at 12 and 8, but the seeds have been planted---that these schools offer something special. It is something that I wish I would have had to work with after graduating from college.</p>
<p>But being a parent who wants the best for my children, I am not inclined to direct them to a life of massive college debt. Most of the young people I am around are already drowning with credit card debt and car loans. I don't know how on earth they could manage 100,000 in school loans. I am hoping that my kids will not fall into the trap of having to have a "new car" and charging designer duds so they can "look good". I will of course do all in my power to help my kids with paying for their college education, but we are upper middle class--self employed and I don't see how we could take that debt on ourselves for two kids. Our income is not consistent enough to make that a realistic idea. </p>
<p>So I am torn--do I keep encouraging the "best", when I am not sure we can afford the best? From what I know of some Ivies--they say--just get in and they will help you find a way to pay for it. Am I foolish to think that that means "they will pay for it"--vs. "we will get you hooked up with loans, so you can pay for it"?</p>
<p>I read earlier in these posts--do your basics at a state school or community college and then transfer to the the higher end schools--does that work with the Ivies? Or do they look at your transfer and laugh you out the door?</p>
<p>We were looking at high end private high schools--and one mom told me to quit work, so that we will look better (read poorer) for the financial aid package. She did that and got more money for financial aid than she is able to bring home in a paycheck....hmmmm--anyone out there done this or heard of this idea?</p>
<p>Ivy2B
"My kids are young at 12 and 8, but the seeds have been planted---that these schools offer something special."</p>
<p>I'd be real careful with that line of thinking. Not that your kids won't measure up academically. They may, they may not. But read these boards. Every year the most amazingly qualified kids are rejected at these "prestigious" schools. Would you love them any less? Will they feel like failures? Pretty ridiculous to think that a name college is worth all that.</p>
<p>"I am hoping that my kids will not fall into the trap of having to have a "new car" and charging designer duds so they can "look good".</p>
<p>Aren't you doing the same with colleges?</p>
<p>And why on earth would any sane person want to impoverish themselves to "look good" for financial aid? That means you would not only "look good" on paper, you would actually have that much less money. Not to mention sabotaging your career.</p>
<p>I believe this thread was about fiscal sanity.</p>
<p>"Planting the seeds" of Ivy worship when you can't afford to pay for it, won't qualify for financial aid and you don't know what kind of students your kids will be in high school (and without considering the fact that 90% of qualified applicants are rejected from most of theses schools), doesn't sound like a very wise plan for the future. Fortunately, you made it to CC in time to give some of these things a good long think. If your family can live on one income, how about putting the other one aside for college costs? A financial advisor could tell you the best way to do this. That way, you and your kids will have some options when the time comes for college.</p>
<p>Ivy2B, listen to deezmon and bethievt. Also note that while an Ivy degree MAY open some doors, a huge debt load WILL close a lot of doors. Many of my law school classmates graduated with six figure debts, which forced them to take jobs based on money rather than their interests. Forget about public interest jobs or non-profits with that kind of debt load. Those who weren't able to get the high-paying big firm jobs are really struggling with managing their futures, even ten years later.</p>
<p>Again, financial freedom increases options. Debt closes them off.</p>
<p>"I work with some Ivy League graduates and I have seen the doors that have opened to them that would have been closed had they graduated from Cal State or University of Idaho or ??"</p>
<p>Hmm .. the top students out of Idaho are in grad school at Stanford and Caltech and the like, law schools like Georgetown, working for Boeing and Microsoft in Seattle, or at high-tech firms in the Bay area. Speaking to a couple of recruiters in Seattle they stated that they like these kids as much or more than kids form the "name schools" because they know how to work and they do not think the world should be handed to them the day they arrive on the job. The same might be said for top grads from Utah, Arizona, Florida etc. Might want to rethink your view. (I know since all of our kids are going to be Supreme Court justices or Nobel Prize winners or the top producers at Bear Stearns they are different and need to go to elite places. But as I have always wondered myself, if they are so good why do they need the "connections" to help them?) I ask this to my own kids and spouse too.</p>
<p>I've told my son for ages that certain decisions keep options open and certain ones limit the options. I posted recently about my friend's D with a $150K debt out of law school. She was working in securities law, which she didn't especially like, but it paid enough to address the debt.</p>
<p>Graduating without debt leave all options open.</p>
<p>Plus, I'm extra puzzled on why people are incurring so much debt in undergrad, especially if they plan to go to grad school or professional school later. From my own experience, the name brand of the undergrad school matters much less in these circumstances. I went to what many people consider a no-name technical school for undergrad (I graduated with no debt), managed to get into a top-tier law school despite a big fat F on my transcript (I had really good work experience to make up for it, I guess), and was able to land a plum DC law firm position after graduation. Now that all my law school loans are paid off, my options are wide open. Hooray!</p>
<p>The name of the school only gets you so far. I'm a firm believer that personal initiative, people skills, a love for learning, and street smarts contribute more to success than where you went for undergrad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Unless you are poor, they won't pay for it. However, they do give parents that impression, don't they?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You don't have to be poor to receive financial aid. We are far from poor. However, we are not upper middle class as the Ivy2B parent is talking about. Our financial aid is a mix of grants, scholarships, student loans and parent loans. </p>
<p>Ivy2B parent....I hope you will listen to the advice of posters who posted responses to you. I can't imagine having "Ivy" as the goal. Encourage your kids to do their very best in school and to pursue their interests in and out of the classroom. Support their choices. They will get into some good colleges. It need not be Ivy whatsoever. Very good students who are motivated, are likely to succeed in life no matter where they go to college. It need not be an Ivy. There are also very selective colleges that are not Ivies. You have to be open to many colleges when the admit rate is about 10% give or take at the Ivies and kids with perfect qualifications are still turned away. But they are likely to still be a success in careers and in life. A motivated hard working high achieving student is likely to make it no matter the name of his or her college. While I have a child who attends an Ivy, she never ever mentioned wanting an Ivy league school as a goal, ever. She wanted a good college where she would fit with students who are on a similar level of challenge and motivation. Many schools fit that bill, including Ivies. She simply picked schools. She even liked certain schools over some of the Ivies, even Ivies she got into and would have picked them first. She just picked the school that she liked best out of the ones that offered her admission. We never discussed "the Ivy League" itself. I strongly encourage you NOT to plant a seed that your kids should be Ivy bound. They should be college bound and with hopes of getting into the best college they can that they also like a lot. They should work hard to achieve. The rest will follow. It need not be an Ivy. Certain Ivies may not even fit what they like in a college when the time comes. The 8 Ivy schools are very different from one another. And there are many colleges of similar calibur as well.</p>
<p>Ivy2B, I don't know if you'll find this relevant at all, but this is my experience...</p>
<p>Dartmouth offered me a just over $25,000 in grants compared to $21,000 and $3,000 from Bryn Mawr and Wellesley respectively; in that sense, they were very generous. However, my family can't afford the remaining $25,000 per year, so even though I will receive $3,000 per year in educational grants from my country's government and will work to earn money towards tuition, I will graduate nearly $50,000 in debt. Since I'm not a US citizen I don't have a state school to fall back on; I could attend any school in the EU almost for free, but I've lived in the US for years and would like to stay here. Dartmouth was my most reasonable option, and $50,000 seems relatively manageable compared to the six-figure debts described here. To me, it is "worth it."</p>
<p>On the other hand, I was raised by European parents who didn't expect me to go to college in the US at all, much less to an Ivy League school. This has been my project from the beginning, and I've done enough research on my own that I feel prepared to finish it, even if that involves debt... but that is my responsibility, and regardless of the sacrifices, I'm grateful to even have that option in the first place. I'm not taking anything for granted. If you can encourage that attitude in your kids, instead of raising their expectations to an unreasonable level, I think you are less likely to disappoint them.</p>
<p>edit: My situation is different, of course, because I don't have the option of graduating from anywhere debt-free unless I go to Europe. Since I plan to work in the US after graduation, attending a US school makes the most sense; my only choice was between crushing debt and mildly debilitating debt. ;) I was very fortunate in that the smaller debt and the "dream school" coincided.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We were looking at high end private high schools--and one mom told me to quit work, so that we will look better (read poorer) for the financial aid package. She did that and got more money for financial aid than she is able to bring home in a paycheck....hmmmm--anyone out there done this or heard of this idea?
[/quote]
Just a thought - What message does this send to the children?</p>
<p>I agree with deezmon that being able to pursue your dreams in your 20's debt-free is the best gift we can give our children, if at all possible without jeopardizing our own futures. And the kids need to be part of financial planning. My parents did that for me and my 3 younger siblings at a UC where they paid what they could for each and we contributed from summer and school-year jobs and savings. By the 4th kid, there was less need for his contribution, but that's life. My parents generously bought me an inexpensive car upon graduation and sent me on my way. I never got another dime from them for living expenses. We did (are doing) this for our two kids. #1 took on HIS reasonable debt for law school and is paying it off very quickly due to the examples we set in our household (thank goodness for the low consolidation rates 2 years ago!).</p>