Should you pass on college because of the debt?

Parents Forum
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<p>We were in this situation. PA resident, DS was interested in Engineering, NO affordable public options.
CC and Penn State satellite were not options. My son had AP credits which wiped out most 1st year courses. Our CC is introducing “Honors” section/courses this year for the first time. In the last 2 years they have also added more STEM courses, including Linear Alg, Differential and Calc III. I am hopeful that this means CC will be an option for my younger son who is leaning toward engineering.</p>

<p>We found OOS with high merit due to GPA/SAT or National Merit.</p>

<p>Some privates, like Drexel, give enough merit to equal cost of Penn State.</p>

<p>PA CCs each have their own Guarantee Transfer. It is not consistent from one CC to another. It is also by major. Our local CC in PA has a transfer agreement with only 1 school for engineering. Guess where? SUNY Environmental Science & Forestry. YES - Not 1 in state private or public Transfer Agreement for Engineering.</p>

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<p>@laralei My son is attending Bama. It was not anywhere near his top choice when we began our search. He has been doing very well there despite the initial misgivings.</p>

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<p>Seems like PA does a very bad job at making higher education accessible for students from low income families:</p>

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<li>State schools are relatively expensive.</li>
<li>State schools have poor in-state financial aid.</li>
<li>Community colleges are poor preparation (in terms of course offerings) for transferring to (four year) state schools.</li>
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<p>Perhaps it is no surprise that PA students tend to have relatively high levels of student loan debt.</p>

<p>Perhaps move to a different state with more friendly higher education policies early enough to get state residency there?</p>

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<p>From reading many posts a 2000 SAT score is very unlikely to get any merit aid</p>

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<p>I think with a 186 SOPHOMORE PSAT that a HIGHER SAT / ACT is possible. My younger son had a similar sophomore PSAT (189) and scored much higher SATs/ACTs as a junior and senior…and he is not the type to practice much for tests (which is why I have to dye my hair more often after his non-study efforts for the MCAT…that’s another story!!! )</p>

<p>So, with some practice, this student could jump to the 2XX on the Junior PSAT, and then go into the 2100+ for the SAT and similar equivalent ACT. </p>

<p>PRACTICE FOR THE JUNIOR PSAT!! My older son’s friend went from a 162 soph PSAT to a 217 PSAT and made NMF…and got free tuition to Fordham. </p>

<p>Anyway…the point is that this student has the potential for some very good merit options instate (not PSU) and OOS …especially for engineering. </p>

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<p>BTW…a 2000 SAT can get decent merit if the M+CR is enough. A 1330 would get him free tuition + 2500 per year as an eng’g major at Bama. And an ACT 29 (or equivalent SAT) would get him half tuition plus 1250 per year from Bama as an eng’g major. (or comp sci)</p>

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<p><<<<
Seems like PA does a very bad job at making higher education accessible for students from low income families:</p>

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<p>I dont know the history of PA state tuitions, but I wonder if there has been a rapid increase over the last 10 or so years. It seems like PA’s intentions were good, sprinkling PSU’s around the state so kids could commute, but then crazy-high state tuition rates means that a student loan can only cover a small part of basic tuition. That is bad.</p>

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<p>I am a PA resident with 1 3/4 students graduated – the second’s tuition bill just came due, and it is nearly 2,000 a semester more than when he started 2 years ago, almost 4K a semester more than his sibling’s beginning. Couple that with Penn State’s nearly non-existent financial “aid” (because loans are not scholarships, grants are not free money) and for most middle class residents, it just isn’t realistic. The state system schools, in total, often cost less for a year of tuition/room/board than PSU does just for board, and they just embraced a hefty increase. (Or that’s what I’m remembering. Luvthej will no doubt appear with better data :slight_smile: I get a headache everytime I hear about a new building, a new parking lot, the renovated athletic facilities…but that money is never directed to tuition relief. If a donor wants to give a bazillion dollars, I have always wondered why they can’t be persuaded to endow scholarship instead of buildings. Clearly, I don’t understand something here. </p>

<p>The PA Gov has continued to dismantle public education – primary through college — as he is beholden to edubusiness and the concerted push to privatize education here by giving it to businesses who masquerade as educators in charter centers. </p>

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<p>Why does your child have to go to college? I don’t get how there are people who automatically assume their child would be best served by going to college. No college = no college debt.</p>

<p>Trade schools should be put right next to college opportunities, and compared and contrasted. Why should it be “I can only pay $5,000 per year” when the family can’t even pay that? Why not go to trade school, work 5 or 10 years, and then go to college if you still want to or need to?</p>

<p><em>EVERYONE</em> should consider opting out of college period. But not going to college is just not on the table anymore, which is very sad and results in lost opportunities. I’ve taught college classes where half the kids failed. That equals another class to pay for, or to owe for. These kids don’t understand why they are in college, or what they need to do to succeed in college. In some cases, they are working full-time or more in order to pay for college. I have students who have taken intro courses FIVE times. Think about paying FIVE times for the same course. I blame the college some for taking kids who do not have college prep backgrounds, and are not told about how much time college takes. And I blame guidance counselors and parents who focus on going to college rather than the reason their child is going to college.</p>

<p>Something is really messed up with the system that every parent and every child thinks their child must go to college “or else”. And I agree with the Americorps or military option - some kids are just going to college to go to college, and finding out more about real life is a better idea in some cases.</p>

<p>I’m not saying that money should dictate whether your child goes to college or not, because there are clearly many colleges that offer full rides for those truly in need. But if your family can afford $15,000 per year on paper, but in reality cannot, other options than college should be looked at.</p>

<p>You might ask about my children, if I want them to go to college. My oldest wants to be a computer software engineer, so yes, the way to do that is college. My second who is very bright in math wants to be a chef. There are multiple paths to do that, and he is probably switching to votech after this coming school year. My experience is that my uncle, who was a sheet metal worker in the Navy and then went on to be a sheet metal worker at a large corporation, ended up with TONS of money because he was union and got great benefits. He did not go to college. Even if you end up with robotics doing assembly line work, someone has to physically fix the robotic assemblers. The need for highly skilled but non-college educated workers will be increasing.</p>

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<p>The impression I get from the PSU branch campuses is that they mainly function like CCs in other states for being commutable transfer-preparation schools – but at a much higher price than CCs typically are. Four year degree options at the PSU branch campuses are often quite limited in comparison to local/directional universities in other states.</p>

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<p>In practice that is already the way it is. For similar levels of academic performance in high school, students from high income families are much more likely to complete college than students from low income families. Indeed, one can say that college education opportunity is suboptimally distributed due to low performing students from high income families enrolling and completing college in place of high performing students from low income families.</p>

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<p>rhandco,</p>

<p>I’ll address a couple things in your post, not to be contrary, but just to show examples of why a college degree is appealing to people.</p>

<p>First, some people can’t go into the military for health reasons. I’m not sure about Americorps, though.</p>

<p>Second, my husband didn’t go to college and has one of those “great” union jobs as a package cart driver. Yes, after 25 years on the job, he has a good income of around 76K (for a family of 5), but</p>

<p>1) that is not “tons” of money. We have no savings, for sure. What we do have is a decent (60K) 401K and he’ll get a pension of a little more than half his salary. We realize many people don’t have that and we’re thankful.</p>

<p>2) he is tired, old, his body hurts, and he feels very hopeless and stuck, feeling that he has to work because once he retires, our retiree benefits will cost us an arm and a leg. For parents of children with health issues, this can be agonizing.</p>

<p>We are looking at many options-me working full time since I have a college degree is one of them, but we will still be faced with a massive hike in our insurance. </p>

<p>So, the glamorization of blue-collar jobs doesn’t do anything for me. The job may start out seeming great, but physical jobs get hard, both mentally and physically. We know many drivers out on disability. Our kids see their dad and know why we push so hard for them to go to college. Now, our youngest, providing his health stays stable, I would be all for his going into the military and actually will push for that if he doesn’t have health problems at the time.</p>

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<p>My uncle ended up with about 3/4’s of a million dollars in stock from a major consumer firm. My aunt (other side of the family; both unmarried interestingly in terms of saving money!) ended up with over a million of big pharma stock. I am union and I’ll end up nowhere near that, with a PhD yet. It does depend on where you end up. I was working in small consulting firms, with small 401K programs, and I went to a union teaching job to get better benefits.</p>

<p>It sounds like your spouse does not have a good retirement pension. Certainly that is key, and used to be the norm. I have a 401K and health benefits upon retirement as part of my union package. I think one stereotype about unions is that they are all great, and they actually vary a lot. Mine is about middling.</p>

<p>My uncle was a sheet-metal worker. My aunt was a secretary, ended up secretary to a senior VP. I guess my point is, there are physical labor jobs and there are less physical jobs that require trade school but aren’t “physical” like electrician, plumber, site manager, etc. </p>

<p>I just don’t think that these options are even considered for most kids unless their family is in the business. There are skilled labor jobs that involve training and/or apprenticeship. My nephew for example spent two wasted years in community college with no degree, and got a fork lift operator job, and then moved on to warehouse management. He never should have gone to college in the first place IMHO.</p>

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<p>“college education opportunity is suboptimally distributed due to low performing students from high income families enrolling and completing college in place of high performing students from low income families”</p>

<p>I would say that is true where I work, but I don’t blame the “low-performing students”. It is complicated by colleges wanting more and more enrollment. Too many colleges brag about enrollment (like where I work) and don’t mention graduation rates (25% after four years, and barely 50% after six years where I work, a decent reputation state school).</p>

<p>The trend is changing to performance-based aid to colleges:
<a href=“Will New Funding Rules Improve Dismal University Graduation Rates? - TIME”>http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2113097,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>My cousin is an electrician. I know garbage men who have done very very well for themselves. Yes, it’s not like every single trade worker is a huge success, but preventing kids from dropping out of college already having taken out loans is better than the alternative.</p>

<p>I wish that kids could not go to college directly after HS; our best performers are often those who are getting paid by their work to go to college, and they are often at least 25 years old.</p>

<p>If the US required two years of civil or military service of all their citizens, many kids might just do their service right after HS and learn a bit more about themselves before they choose to go to college or not, and where and what to pursue.</p>

<p>All my opinion. Seeing kids on the “front lines” who just have no idea how to thrive in college is very frustrating. Most of the kids are smart enough, but many are ill-prepared and do not know what it takes to do well (or just pass) in college. And they feel trapped - trapped for four years (where I teach) or more if they start failing a few courses.</p>

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<p>Don’t get me started on PA college options. Or Gov. Corbett’s effect on education in this state. With a rising senior, I am not happy at all. </p>

<p>Here’s a few snippets from: <a href=“Pitt, Penn State most expensive public colleges in U.S.”>http://news.yahoo.com/pitt-penn-state-most-expensive-public-colleges-u-193500333.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Think about it. 15 of the 34 most costly public universities are PSU branch campuses. BRANCH CAMPUSES!!! It’s obscene. </p>

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<p>PA has become a have vs have nots. </p>

<p>If you have the money to afford a quality education you can get one. If your lower income, you either have to look at CC or trades. As a previous poster said “someone has to work on the factory lines”. </p>

<p>If you are lucky to live in a state that cares about its’ education programs, there are many fantastic colleges for you. </p>

<p>In PA you need to be either a have or score very high on standardized testing to find lower debt higher ranked college. Because our so-called state flagships don’t want anyone, but the haves. Those that as another earlier poster said could easily afford 25,000 + per year education. “Most people living in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh can afford in-state college”. Glad most can afford 25,000 per year per student. Guess I am not in the most category. </p>

<p>My issue is too many believe you should just be happy with going to a CC or small branch campus. Sorry the oppurtunities available to those CC students is lacking. </p>

<p>Shame that an earlier poster might be correct in saying families should look at moving out of PA to a state with better school funding. </p>

<p>Shame on PA. My home state. </p>

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In the article at <a href=“http://www.checkbook.org/cgi-bin/memberonly/newsletter/fall-2013/del/estimating-college-costs/”>http://www.checkbook.org/cgi-bin/memberonly/newsletter/fall-2013/del/estimating-college-costs/&lt;/a&gt; , the price of colleges in the PA area is compared for a variety of incomes levels. Note that for all but the $200k income group, the least expensive option was not community college – it was University of Pennsylvania or Haverford, both of which are colleges that offer a “quality education.”</p>

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<p>Data, that article doesn’t cover about how the schools will GAP the student. </p>

<p>Also, how many middle class or low income students score well enough to get into PENN? </p>

<p>Yes, if you can go Ivy League you hit the jackpot and will not pay much for college. </p>

<p>In PA, MOST applicants are not able to score high enough for Penn, but do score high enough for many strong colleges in-state. They just have to be a have or take on more loans. </p>

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One can get a rough estimation of gaps by looking at net costs for different financial situations. For example, the near median US income family had a cost of $1700 for Penn, $3400 for Haverford, and $20,500 for Penn State. Obviously Penn State has a large gap and is not going to be affordable without loans.<br>

I’d expect that hundreds of thousands of lower/middle income students in the US have high enough test scores in any particular year… certainly enough students to fill the class many times over. However, most high-achieving, lower-income students do not apply to any selective colleges, as discussed at <a href=“http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/projects/bpea/spring%202013/2013a_hoxby.pdf”>http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/projects/bpea/spring%202013/2013a_hoxby.pdf&lt;/a&gt; . Note that most of this group would have little chances of admission for other reasons, as test scores are only a small portion of admissions decisions at highly selective colleges with a holistic admissions focus, like the ones we have been discussing. Because of this holistic focus, few students can count on admission, including ones with high scores. </p>

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<p>When I was growing up, it was well known that garbage collectors were paid well, presumably because handling garbage was a rather noxious job. Remember that this was back in the day when garbage collectors had to grab the garbage cans by hand and empty them into the garbage truck, and the cans were sometimes overflowing, or bent up so that the lids did not close, and did not have wheels.</p>

<p>These days, with the garbage trucks that grab and empty the garbage cans by remote control, there needs to be only the driver in each garbage truck (instead of a driver plus two or three manhandling the garbage cans), and the driver rarely has to get out and have any contact with the garbage. So garbage collection may not have the opportunities it once had.</p>

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<p>However, there are also high school graduates who would contribute the most by going to college immediately to graduate and enter high skilled college graduate work as soon as possible, instead of doing low skilled work for some gap years between high school and college, and may not have the interest or skill for the skilled blue collar jobs to make those good options for them.</p>

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<p>If you use <a href=“College Search & Match with our College Finder | CollegeData”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/search/college/college_search_tmpl.jhtml&lt;/a&gt; to search for public colleges with average student loan debt >$35,000, 10 of the 19 that come up are in Pennsylvania.</p>

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<p>My point was not that “25,000 per year per student” is affordable, my point is that most Pennsylvanians do not need to be paying 100k to obtain an undergraduate degree. First, there is the actual state system - schools like West Chester, Kutztown, etc. Second, there is the low cost option of Temple University for high performing students. Third, there are the satellite campuses which are located in areas where the majority of students are living so at the very least the first two years of flagship U can be obtained more cheaply. </p>

<p>Does Pennsylvania lag in getting its students 4 years in Happy Valley? Yes. Are there people who fall through the cracks who aren’t high achieving students, can’t viably commute to a satellite campus, and can’t find their major at one of the actual state schools (West Chester, Slippery Rock, etc.) . Undeniably yes. But my point still stands - most students in Pennsylvania can find an affordable education if they want one. It may not be the one they’ve dreamt of or think they deserve, but the fact is most people, even the ones who live in remote parts of PA, either don’t want to be aerospace engineers (and WCU et al suits them fine) or they do, but they have the stats to get a significant discount from Temple and so for them, PA’s offerings (while still not cheap) aren’t much different from many other states. </p>