Sick over "award" package

<p>^^^ So true! Happykid has two friends who left in August for their “dream” schools, and were back in town, enrolled at her CC with her come January.</p>

<p>Actually it looks like you can do this; $35k from current income, $10k merit aid, $10k/year on a HELOC, and let your daughter borrow $5k/yr. Would she still want to attend this school with $20k debt in her own name?</p>

<p>BTW, I’m with you, prepaying the mortgage. Good luck.</p>

<p>So, let me clarify a bit. The reason why the school is a “99/100” and the other choices are far lower is for two reasons:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>She wants to be within 4 hours of home.</p></li>
<li><p>The field that she wants to study is a bit of a niche…sort of…imagine your kid had a natural ability for aerospace engineering…dreamed about it, did it as much as he/she could, spent every day thinking about aerospace engineering, won awards for it, etc. The school you find is the “par excellence” school for aerospace engineering. Every other school in your search criteria is a general engineering school.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If this were not the case and the other schools offered comparable curriculum I would myself had said “get over it you are going to have to pick x, y or z” a long time ago.</p>

<p>Given that it sounds like my appeal letter is going to result in an outburst of laughter at the school…we will have to think about an even lower cost option and then try to cover grad school for her…maybe that’s an option instead…although for a 17 year old to hold off for that deal…even though she’s very mature it’s asking a lot.</p>

<p>She’d gladly take on debt but she’s 17 and doesn’t realize it means an anvil hanging over her head in a job market that (no matter what the spin doctors say) is not improving.</p>

<p>HELOC…I don’t know…maybe I’d clip my IRA before I take on new debt. I really hate having any debt. On the charitable giving that’s non-negotiable. Kids are suffering around the world; I wish I could give more than the 10% we already give. Not willing to stop that.</p>

<p>I would take a very close look at the COA and see what can be squeezed out. I find that most schools overstate personal expenses, books, and travel by a lot, especially if you are within driving distance. Also consider moving off-campus after freshman year, this can often save several thousand a year over dorms/meal plans.</p>

<p>

Keep in mind you will owe taxes and penalties on anything you take out of an IRA. This will eat up 40% of the money, maybe more.</p>

<p>I’ve seen HELOC rates that are down in the two’s.</p>

<p>

Look at it from a school’s perspective - you are asking them to give you more money so that you can give money to someone else. </p>

<p>You don’t have to stop giving, just cut back, or postpone it awhile. Once your kid it out of school you could even bump up the giving for a few years to make up for it.</p>

<p>What was the backup plan before her acceptance to the 99% school? What if she had not been accepted? If you decide you cannot afford it/do not wish to take on debt, it is essentially not an option–just as if she hadn’t gotten in.</p>

<p>I understand schools/programs that are special/unique–are there others out there that you perhaps didn’t know about? It’s a rare thing when only one school can offer the path you need. But if that is truly the case, then you are going to have to choose to cut back somewhere (charity, IRA, expenses) or take on additional debt.</p>

<p>Also–even kids who have a deep passion for an area/subject have been known to change course once they get to college–so the more ‘general’ school might not be the end of the world. There is grad school, which might be needed for her ‘dream job’ anyway–and if you/she are tapped out from UG, funding grad school might be tough.</p>

<p>Good luck</p>

<p>If her field is a sci/tech one, then grad school will be free or low cost. </p>

<p>If one of the huge reasons that she wants to be at this school is because it is within four hours of home, that implies there are other schools further away that have the academic program she wants. That true? If so, I don’t think that her desire to be within 4 hours of home is a good enough reason for you to pull money out of your retirement fund or cut the charitable giving that is so important to you. </p>

<p>The issue of trimming charitable giving in order to pay for college is one that’s come up before. One possible solution for you to consider is to limit charitable giving for the next four years, and then ramp up your giving to 20% for four years (or 15% for 8 years) in order to make up for the decline during college years. </p>

<p>You don’t say how far away you are from retirement, but I’d be very very reluctant to pull money out of an IRA when I had the opportunity to use a HELOC, especially on a home owned free and clear. Please talk this through with a financial advisor of the fee-for-service type (not the work on commission type!), and don’t just decide based on gut feel.</p>

<p>You asked what you could have done differently. We did many of the same things you did. </p>

<p>However, there are 2 things that we did differently.

  1. We had our kids take community college classes while in high school (instead of AP classes as this was not a good option for us). This shortened their time in college and therefore reduced our costs.
  2. We did not let our kids apply to a school that we knew that we could not afford. Sure it would have been great for our son to attend Princeton (fill in the blank), but we knew that we could not afford it and we did not assume that with our income that we’d get any financial aid.</p>

<p>

The OP seems to ignore the possibility of AP/IB/DE credit every time I bring it up.</p>

<p>Sorry didn’t mean to ignore this. Yes she took AP courses but not enough to really make a difference – the high school she goes to does not offer many (2 or 3); and the college does not accept them. You could get a 5 on the test it does not matter. I don’t know what IB/DE is. As far as taking community college classes instead of AP classes, she would have not gotten into this school on the basis that she did not take as rigorous a course load as possible. Most of this discussion is bridge/water at this point…high school is over in 6 weeks.</p>

<p>Not sure if this college would even accept a transfer-in student but that’s something we could look at…go one year to community college then transfer-in.</p>

<p>Is the dream niche “aerospace engineering” or is it acting at NYU, where the chance of her earning a steady salary after graduation is minimal?</p>

<p>As another poster said, a dream school doesn’t guarantee anything. 30 years ago, I went to a top school in the country for my field (Carnegie-Mellon, for tech theatre); it was a terrible fit, I transferred to a SUNY where I excelled and made connections and worked on Bway and have ever since.</p>

<p>A friend’s daughter, also for theatre, gave up a scholarship at School X to pay full price at Tisch. She is now working alongside someone who attended School X.</p>

<p>As for whether or not your 17 yo understands debt… you’re right. She probably doesn’t. And that’s why you sit down and explain it to her in terms she understands. Show her prices of various houses and apartments in NYC. Discuss the prices of cars, and insurance. (My D thought our new Honda Civic cost $6k). We talked about grad school, and her need for multiple musical instruments, and summer music programs and recreational travel - and the strong likelihood that she’ll have months/years of unemployment before any sense of job security. She came up with the equation that she could live rent free for 10 years…</p>

<p>It became very clear to her that she could extend the value of her college fund by spending less on u/g. There are well-defined benefits to her, in her daily life, of choosing the less expensive option (eg, a dataplan and iphone!).</p>

<p>This was important - we showed her the impact on her life - otherwise, it’s easy for the kid to think they’ll be off at the less favorable college and you and your wife will enjoy an early retirement!</p>

<p>Then again, we also told our kids up-front (repeatedly) that finances would factor into the decisions.</p>

<p>If your daughter wants to be within 4 hours of home, then presumably some of the other 14 schools were also within that geographic distance.</p>

<p>There are numerous videos floating around of kids talking about debt hanging over them. Some of the links have been posted here at CC. Perhaps it’s time to sit down with your daughter and watch them. (google videos of: student college debt)</p>

<p>The last school you attend is far more important than the first school you attend. You’ve already indicated that your daughter will go to grad school. Having the money set aside for grad school will give her financial freedom. Yeah, I know, you know this. You need to find the words to communicate to your daughter.</p>

<p>I know it’s hard to have to say no to her… but really, it will pass.</p>

<p>Regarding the AP/IB/college level classes in hs that get ya college credit MYTH-- for some colleges (maybe most), yea, this could work to get students enough credits to graduate early, but in our (limited) experience, top or higher tiered schools don’t buy it. The students can move on to more advanced college classes if they have APs but they don’t get credits that shorten their education. My d’s high school offers many classes for “college” credit (“for only $210 you,too, can get 3 college credits; what a big savings!”) Nope, nada, not even higher placement for those “college” credits.</p>

<p>OP, if you take $ from your IRA, it shows up as income on your tax returns. </p>

<p>The college will view it as income, regardless of where it came from, thus you will inflate your annual income. </p>

<p>If you take money from the HELOC, that does not show up as income on your tax returns. </p>

<p>Avoid state income tax refunds, they show up on your federal income tax return. </p>

<p>You can always pay the college 10 months out of the year for your family’s EFC.
Most schools let you do this, through Tuition Management Systems or similiar setup.
As in, $35,000 for the school year would equal $3500.00/month for 10 months. </p>

<p>Parents are not required to make two huge semester tuition payments. There are other ways as I stated above.</p>

<p>AP/College Credit in high school–perhaps it wouldn’t have been the case at some schools, but for my D, it enabled her to skip a slew of entry-level courses and go on to higher-level courses at her college; she could easily have graduated a year early but has decided to double-major, which she will be able to do now quite easily due to entering with about 30 credits.</p>

<p>So–it’s not a myth, but it is definitely worth looking into; D didn’t like the idea going somewhere where the college courses she took and worked hard on not ‘counting’…(she took several courses at the local state U, not CC, in a program where high-schoolers can attend for dual credit–plus a number of APs).</p>

<p>It is true you cannot count on them counting, particularly if they are courses that are requirements in your major–ie, AP Bio will likely not get you out of college Bio if you are a science major.</p>

<p>

True college courses are more rigorous than high school courses, I can tell you from experience. I can also tell you from experience that it is very possible to get into selective schools doing full time dual enrollment at a community college. Many seemed to think it was a great experience.</p>

<p>

If you wanted to share the college/university, then some people here might be able to tell you the prospects of this working.</p>

<p>My dad was an aerospace engineer. He majored in mechanical engineering, not aerospace engineering. I don’t know if things have changed, though. I will say there were times my dad nearly got laid off, as aerospace is largely supported by government contracts, and we can see how that is going. Not an expert here, but I don’t think it is necessary to major in aerospace engineering to work in that field.
As I read these threads, I am SO glad my D is going to the public university in our state. I have hardly touched her 529 or savings bonds by paying out of pocket mostly the past couple years, so all those savings bonds her great-grandmother bought her will still be there for grad school or whatever. But I had to argue with H about the danger of college costs; he would have been willing to pay anything for his girl, who was an undecided major. If she could have given me a compelling reason why she had to go to X private school costing three times as much, I may have capitulated. But she was only 18- she didn’t have one. By her going to the public option near home and working for spending money, I figure we will have saved over $120,000 by the time she graduates.
H and I have already had fights about her wedding (she is only 20, not even near that stage of life, thank God) because he is impractical about big ticket items. Penny-wise, pound foolish- there is a bit of truth in every cliche.</p>

<p>OP is getting a mix of commiseration, criticism and advice, incl, as he/she wrote, to “get over it.” But, I’m wondering if we know enough about the details to offer much.</p>

<p>Eg, why she applied to 15 schools if, as it now turns out, only one is acceptable. What happened to the others? Was she rejected at all the other schools that would also have been acceptable or good enough? Or, has something changed? And, is it a legitimate change or flipflopping? These answers could affect your decision.</p>

<p>Is her interest aerospace or was that just an example? Depending on what the niche major is, it may be one that, as hinted above, does not have to be studied at a tippy-top superior university in the undergrad years- where grad school matters far more. That becomes her target. On the other hand, if it IS one where there is no usual grad path, that changes things. </p>

<p>IB is international baccalaureate and DE is dual enrollment (hs kids taking coll classes for hs and college credit.) If your hs offers few APs and is not IB or offering DE…well, there are some very fine, very small schools in the US that fit this mold. In that case, perhaps her experience in this niche has been rigorous, she’s been truly well tested and came out on top. Whether her major is really aerospace or is in the arts, she could still be well-prepared.</p>

<p>But, if this is a matter of just any old school district that doesn’t offer an advanced curriculum, you have to ask yourself if her experience to-date is, in fact, competitive- enough for a 60k school.</p>

<p>And then, whether the major or the distance from home is the more important factor. If she really wants and is prepared for this niche, distance should come second. </p>

<p>I had a similar issue with D1- she wanted a specific subfield in humanities. Many great schools offer the traditonal basics in her field, but few offer more than one, maybe two, classes in her specific arena. From the start, she said that if she didn’t get into a college with depth in her niche, she would go with the traditional path and supplement with research projects or independent study.</p>

<p>I feel for you OP. We also did many of the same things - paid off the house in 15 years, saved money for college, drove old cars, lived relatively frugally. However we were very, very clear with our kids what we would pay for their colleges so they did not have a dream private school although they did apply to private colleges. I think if you have not done so, a conversation with your student is in order. 17 is old enough to understand what things cost. My 16 year old is learning the lesson with gas prices…at $3.99 a gallon if he runs out of gas and doesn’t have any money he can’t drive the car. Simple, but the lesson is the same. If the college is $60 grand a year and you don’t have $60 grand a year you don’t go to that college. The decision really is yours to make. You either figure out how to make it work at the dream school or you have to say “no.” My son has to learn to keep gas in his car he has to compromise his “roaring around” somewhere. I, too, know many, many engineers in aerospace who graduated as EEs and/or MEs. Don’t overestimate the outcomes from an undergrad degree.</p>

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</h1>

<p>You are not willing to stop giving out $15K+ in charity in an amount that is spread among many – but you expect some college to give your daughter that much in charity, for her alone?</p>

<p>Don’t you understand that a college scholarship or grant is “charity” that someone else is giving YOU? </p>

<p>If it is a higher priority for you to give charity to others than to subsidize your own daughter’s education – that’s fine and that is even commendable. Good for you. But don’t ask or expect the college to fill the gap created because you happen to have enough discretionary income to afford to give it away. </p>

<p>Same story with the borrowing: if you are not willing to take on debt as a piece of college financing, then you do not have “need” as the colleges see it. Those of us who have true need – who do qualify and end up being the families getting close to that average $38K package are working & paying rent or paying down mortgages, we are borrowing, our kids are working and borrowing, and we rely on college grants to fill in the part that we can’t meet through our work and borrowing. </p>

<p>The problem with you is not that you don’t have the money. You do. You just have different priorities and don’t want to spend all your discretionary income on college.</p>

<p>That’s fine. It is your right. But it certainly shouldn’t fall on others to subsidized your preferred lifestyle and allocation.</p>

<p>Yes, Calmom making a decision about which college to attend is simply that “making a decision” and different people will make different decisions. There is no one anywhere holding a sledgehammer telling parents they must to this or they must do that.</p>

<p>@ChrisV2:</p>

<p>I’m not sure if aerospace engineering was just an example or if that’s the situation here. If it is, you should be aware that many mechanical engineers work in the aerospace field, and many AeroE graduate students studied ME as undergrads. You might be interested in searching for posts by boneh3ad over on the Engineering Majors subforum. He is currently studying at a very good aerospace grad program after graduating with a bachelor’s in ME.</p>

<p>Please don’t think that the official AeroE degree is a dealbreaker.</p>

<p>I understand that this is frustrating. But I think you need to realize that your expectations were not realistic. You don’t go to a BMW dealer expecting a big discount because you can’t easily pay for a shiny new M3, and you shouldn’t expect a lot of free money to make a pricey private school cheap.</p>

<p>Your dedication to paying off that mortgage is commendable. And your donations to charity speak volumes about the strength of your character. But with limited financial aid funds available, I really can’t blame the school for choosing to allocate those resources elsewhere when you clearly could pay what they are offering if you chose to do so.</p>

<p>College costs are out of control in this country, especially at selective private schools. I agree that they are asking you to pay a lot of money. But you need to make the same decision you would when shopping for a car: is a new BMW worth the hardship it would entail for your daughter and your family? What other cars are available that might be a better fit for your price range?</p>

<p>I feel like the school might be RPI. Is that correct? What are the other options?</p>