<p>Re: organizational issues... S3 was a perfect student - when he was accelerated. We moved, and the school district told us "according to his age only". THEN he became "immature" and "unmotivated", did not do his homework etc. We homeschooled him, then returned to school with a grade skip in a different district. Worked like a charm. Mature and motivated, although not perfect anymore... I strongly believe that study skills depend on the level of student's interest.</p>
<p>I totally agree with dmd about the homework part of the grade. My second son, going into grade 10, consistently aces tests but can't find his homework to turn it in. How does one get a C+ in Biology when one had the highest Biology SAT II in the honors class and a 97 test average? By not turning in all his homework "on time"! </p>
<p>I want to just offer some caution regarding skipping Algebra II/Trig. My oldest son skipped Algebra II after testing out of it - he was in the process of transferring from another school and the sequence of courses meant he would be a year behind his peers otherwise and not on track to take an AP courses in math. The GC suggested that he take the test and depending upon the results, enroll in a college level Algebra course over the summer with the concepts covered in Algebra II. He tested beyond the top course offered at the local CC but took it anyway to meet the math department's concern. We didn't think much about this - he was good at math and had tested out of the course. Also he had been in an honors advanced algebra course the year before at a rigorous prep school and had done well. He took a six week course at the CC, aced it, and went right to honors pre-calc. </p>
<p>We were very surprised when we found him struggling with Pre-Calc. When I met with the instructor she said he understood the concepts but made mistakes in the execution of the problems. She made it clear to me that the students who took Honors Algebra II at the school had tons of practice manipulating the equations and working through difficult problems. It dawned on us that the 6 weeks were not enough "practice" with the problems despite his excellent ability to understand the concepts. He managed to get to AP Calc but started to have problems again after the first quarter. His teacher, a PhD in Math from Poland, felt that missing Algebra II continued to haunt him. We ended up getting a tutor to help get him through AP Calc and to see if we could find the holes. I don't know how valid all of this is as math is not my field. However, he did just get a 5 on the AP Calculus test so somehow, he learned some Calculus, but it wasn't easy and he had two Cs in the course.</p>
<p>Interesting about the similar experiences with homework! Funny, I've been lecturing son about the importance of homework for years (that's generally the only reason he doesn't end up w/100s in almost everything...). Fascinating to hear the opinion that maybe he's right after all, and shouldn't need it! </p>
<p>Son doesn't want to take notes in math either ("I learn better when I just hear it") yet a 'math notebook' (student's transcript of teacher's lectures) is a significant portion of the grade.</p>
<p>I wonder though, whether son would really rise to the occasion in more challenging classes (although probably math, if any). In English he <em>hates</em> to do the work (analyzing in journals the depths of your emotions/opinions on literature...he and many other boys <em>loathe</em> it...). Although he reads for hours at a time at a lightening fast pace---he doesn't like to/won't spend time in personal written expression (though still gets 100s on English tests..)</p>
<p>So that's a type of class that might be considered 'challenging' ---and there's been no 'rising to the occasion' there, lol.</p>
<p>I'm a little afraid to gamble on him getting on board (re: homework, etc.) in 9th grade, esp. since those grades are really counting.</p>
<p>But, as always, I greatly appreciate the insights!! And thanks, texas, I'll look into competitions other than the AMC. Frankly, all the academic competitions through our HS seem a little small-scale (just in the local county, etc.). We'll check out The Art of Problem Solving too!</p>
<p>Edit---thanks Marmat, for that link! And Riley, that's something to think about! I'm leaning toward taking it conservatively for that reason too (as quick as he is--he might miss something via self-study...).</p>
<p>Just had to jump back in with another post---texas (and others who recommended it) the Art of Problem Solving website looks so fantastic!! So exciting to see all those resources/opportunities in one spot! Think we could really be on to something for son, here.</p>
<p>He & a friend have already agreed to do the AMC test--fabulous that they have training programs. As of now I've just been printing out problems from the web and he's solved a few---here's something that's guided, and he can do on his own....</p>
<p>9th grade grades do not count for college admissions. Princeton, for example, does not count them. BUT, they do count for GPA and perhaps class rank, so this is something to consider.</p>
<p>
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In English he <em>hates</em> to do the work (analyzing in journals the depths of your emotions/opinions on literature...he and many other boys <em>loathe</em> it...). Although he reads for hours at a time at a lightening fast pace---he doesn't like to/won't spend time in personal written expression (though still gets 100s on English tests..)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Both my boys loathed these assignments. To them, it was almost like an invasion of their privacy and asking them to wear their hearts on their sleeves (my older S refuses to wear anything that has a logo on it, let alone a slogan or design). It's not a matter of the level of difficulty: they have no trouble writing research papers. </p>
<p>As a matter of fact, many college profs have expressed dismay at some of the results of the "how do you feel about..." type of assignments. How can you grade a paper about feelings? If the feelings are valid (aren't they all?) and if the paper is written in half-way decent English, doesn't it merit an A? How can you ask a student to improve on such a paper? College profs at some of the best universities tell of bright students who don't know what a thesis statement is. There's probably a correlation with grade inflation in the humanities.</p>
<p>marite - I don't think that's true about 9th grade grades. I can think of a couple of institutions that state they don't consider 9th grade grades but other than that, most take them into consideration and many use them when calculating the GPA. Ninth grade might be discounted if it is vastly different from the rest of the credentials and/or there is a solid explanation but there are no guarantees. Ninth grade definitely impacts GPA, and that can be so difficult to improve. Remember that you don't really have 4 years for the GPA that colleges see, you really only have 9th, 10th, and 11th and for regular admissions, early senior year grades. That makes 9th grade heavier in the weighting than most parents typically realize. My son applied ED which meant that only one term of senior grades were available and they were not part of his school's GPA calculation.</p>
<p>marite - I was referencing the comment that they don't count for college admissions. Given the choice between two otherwise stellar candidates, I think 9th grade grades could impact the ultimate decision.</p>
<p>I probably should have said discount rather than do not count.<br>
I doubt very much that 9th grade grades would be the tie-breaker unless the student had taken unusual courses. More important would be an upward trend. Between two students with similar GPAs, the one who started weak but finished strong would have the edge.</p>
<p>My S was actually disgruntled that some application forms did not include space for listing 9th grade grades as he had gotten excellent grades in AP-Chem, MVCalc and Linear Algebra. He was graduating early AND applying early, so he could only list the grades from 10th grade plus 1st quarter of 11th grade.</p>
<p>going back to those "heart on sleeve" writing assignments - my son also loathed those. I know the intent is that it should be "easier" because the kid doesn't have to know anything substantive to write about "my most memorable moment" or "a person who is important to me". But for the private, non-emoting type of kid, these are torture. My son would much rather write 10 pages on some technical topic than 1 page on some topic meant to extract his innermost feelings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My S was actually disgruntled that some application forms did not include space for listing 9th grade grades as he had gotten excellent grades in AP-Chem, MVCalc and Linear Algebra. He was graduating early AND applying early, so he could only list the grades from 10th grade plus 1st quarter of 11th grade.
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<p>he only listed grades for one full year and left an entire year worth of space blank?? Since he was graduating early, I think I would have just had him put the previous 2 full years on the form, regardless of what grade the high school called them. Obviously things worked out fine for your S, but for other kids applying early I don't think that providing less info than regular applicants provide would be a good approach. If anything, it seems like colleges would want extra info about an apllicant applying a year early.</p>
<p>Actually, he ended up not filling out those forms as he got admitted SCEA. If he had, he probably would have provided some explanation as to why he was listing 9th grade grades.
If I remember correctly, those forms also had space for ECs and awards since 10th grade as well.</p>
<p>I want to reiterate the idea that skippinhg a grade in a subject may, for some kids (and assuming it doesn't leave major holes in their background) be salvation from boredom and even alienation from schoolwork. Some kids need to find ways to escape from what, to them at least, is the tedium of the typical class, even taught by a good teacher. Sometimes the escape is to accelerate their programs, sometimes it's to provide alternative or enriched programs, and sometimes it's going to be found through extracurricular activities (i.e., beyond or escaping from the classroom). If you have an especially talented kid in music, you hope to find those alternatives; kids talented in sports look for them outside their P.E. class. And so many kids become geeks in one thing or another -- not in the classroom, but outside of it. And they do it because they like it and are good in it and may find comradeship in it. And it keeps them from being hopelessly bored by the daily tedium of school. In the best cases, this involves some sort of progressive learning, discovery, and exploiting of talent. And this may pay off in many ways over the life-course.</p>
<p>mackinaw, I totally agree although I think it's interesting to consider my older son's experience as clearly the curriculum was successive in nature and missing a portion of it put my son at a disadvantage gradewise simply because he had not mastered the execution, as opposed to the concepts. I have a younger son who troubled us greatly through 3rd grade (well, frankly, the trouble continues but we understand it better). All of his teachers except his K teacher recommended ADHD meds, complained about his disruptive personality, etc., and boy, was he a pain. He was a real behavior problem in class and we were dumbstruck as to why this was going on since we were very conscientious about behavior and manners. We took him to a neuropsychologist who discovered his very gifted IQ - she recommended a special program for him. When we returned to the school with this information we were told that everyone is gifted in some way and that accomodations could not be made for one child. Ultimately, we were able to convince the 3rd grade teacher to let him work on a project or read a book after the other students had finished their work. We literally went through a book a day- it was so discouraging and we were bored ourselves just imagining him sitting in the classroom with nothing to do but read the book we sent with him. It has been a challenge since then to find his medium. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and man, he can be exhausting, but I think there is fine line for him between his activity level and boredom - he very much needs to be engaged. Yet, the school system has no provision for children like my second son and I worry about this gap between what he is doing and what he wants to do. As I noted earlier, he aces every test but completing homework is a challenge. In my heart, I know it doesn't matter how bright you are if you can't complete a job - still, why not nurture these minds by challenging and engaging them at school?</p>
<p>You may find some useful discussion on the thread Gifted Children which is highlighted on the CC Homepage. A good resource is Hoagiesgifted.org, especially the threads on dual exceptionalities; ldonline.org also has some good advice about how to help children with learning disabilities.
We found that some teachers were willing to accommodate our S, usually by allowing us to identify materials he could work with and exempting him from the grade-level busywork; but not all were. As S moved to higher grades and the gap between him and his classmates grew wider, enlisting the help of teachers became easier.</p>
<p>Marite: as you know, my son was similarly accelerated in math (not in his other subjects, other than being in the regular honors, AP track). Like your son, we were very concerned about the underminig effect of boredom on his school work, and luckily, our school district was very helpful. Because he started with high school math very early (5th grade), our high school included all those grades and regents exams on his transcript. As for college courses (he did distance learning courses through Stanford U.), he listed them in the application and had the official transcripts sent.</p>
<p>Each district seems to be handling things differently. I have to say I've never seen my S's transcript (as opposed to his school report). I know that the grades for audited courses in college were converted to Pass. I asked the GC to note the grades given by the instructors, but I don't know whether that was done or not. For the courses he got undergraduate credit for, a separate transcript was sent by the Extension School.
My S took AP-Physics while in 8th grade. Since he was not a high schooler,his grade does not appear anywhere on his high school reports and transcript, and since he was not taking it in k-8, it did not appear in his k-8 transcript either. The only record that he took AP-Physics is the score he received on the AP exam.
Obviously, the fact that he took 9 college courses was taken into account by adcoms (incidentally, I believe our two Ss applied to the same two schools). Still, some of the application forms that I saw had space only for grades from 10th grade onward. I mention this just to note that 9th grade grades are taken less seriously by adcoms than grades from the 10th and 11th grades. BUT, 9th grade grades do factor into GPA and class rank. This is particularly important for schools that are numbers-driven, where adcoms do not bother to convert grades according to their own scales.</p>
<p>Marite: I actually specifically requested to see both my kids transcripts before they applied to colleges. I might be a little on the over-cautious side, but I wanted to make sure that there were no errors, and particularly in my son's case, where there were so many extra courses from those early years, I wanted to insure that everything was reflected accurately. Luckily, my kid's g.c. was incredibly helpful and cooperative throughout.
As for other schools my S applied to, the only RD one where all parts had gone out was Stanford, but after he heard EA, he withdrew the Stanford ap.</p>
<p>marite - thanks for the information - I remember reading some of this material a few years ago but was thrilled to think and read about it again. It's reinforcing to know that I am not crazy to keep asking for the school to challenge this child.</p>