<p>Donemom:
My S tried to withdraw his Stanford app several times via email, without success. So he received a thick envelope in April, a recruiting letter and email from the math department, a B-day greeting from the Admissions Office, complete with picture of the entire staff, a phone call from local alum or student's parents... When the Admissions Office finally processed his response card, he received yet another nice letter wishing him well at Harvard. I was truly impressed.</p>
<p>I've never seen anything the school sent out for either of my Ss but their GCs seemed to be on top of things, so I was not worried. But it would have been a good idea to check.</p>
<p>My D accelerated 3 yrs in math, then skipped year entirely (middle school). Very hardworking, loves challenge...but no longer top of the class. Junior year she takes one challenge too many and ends up pulling a B- in AP Physics C (both Mechanics and E/M). Well she's barely 16 (now)...got a 4 on AP Physics Mechanics, 5 on AP Calc but her UW GPA is now 3.64 and suddenly (per her GC) she's not so special to the colleges she wants to apply to. Obviously. I think she's terrific...and in the long run the challenge, academic bravery, dealing with disappointment are all great lessons. We'll see what happens next year...hoping she ends up where she's happy (and still challenged).</p>
<p>What kind of math are your kids doing in middle school..I mean kids in the "regular" math classes...I am just wondering...at my Ds school, they are doing math in 7th grade I did in 9 and 10th years ago. </p>
<p>As well, I find at my Ds hs, the books read in 9th grade english and in 10th grade are wonderful, so if you skip that grade, aren't you missing out on some really good discussions?</p>
<p>As well, sometimes touchy feely papers are good. When my D went into highschool, the teachers were dismayed that so many kids from her school wrote with little passion. It was all rote. The grammar was excellent, so was the punctuation, etc, but it was BORING. Sometimes the purpose of wrtiing something different, from inside, where there is not right and wrong answer brings something new to the area of writing.</p>
<p>Smart kids know what the teachers want to see in a paper on Lord of the Flies, but to have to write on something a bit "out there" takes some stretching.</p>
<p>And if you look at college applications, those essays specifically want something personal and not rote and a formula.</p>
<p>my little cousin is 12, and going into 8th grade. he skiped pre-algebra and took algebra 1 in 7th, and he's taking honors algebra 2 in 8th, and then he will have to walk to the high school (i think), to take honors geometry in 9th, honors trig in 10th, AP calc in 11th, and AP stat in 12th. that way he will have taken all of our math courses without ever doubling up... it just depends on the kid, how your schools are structured, and whatnot.</p>
<p>regarding those kids "hating" those essays about feelings, experiences, and equating life and literature...from what I have read on this website, many of the questions on college applications, scholarships, etc want to find out about the student- through essays. And if the kids isn't comfortable writing about themselves, how in the world are they going to be able to do it for something so important.</p>
<p>Those essays in class are practice for the applications in a way. And, as I said before, it is easy to say, well the protaganist in Hamlet is so and so, but to be able to discuss something in ones own life and NOT be embarrassed is tough for some kids because they can't figure out exactlly what the teacher is looking for. And they have to think in a different way. Much like those college essays.</p>
<p>Part of what high schools try to do is to teach students good study skills--doing homework, note taking, binder organization,etc. Maybe a student doesn't need to do these things to get a good grade in algebra or geometry, but I am concerned that when he does reach his performance level (probably in college), he won't have the skills to fall back on. </p>
<p>Math homework--I object to math teachers who assign "problems 1-89, odds." That's just being lazy. I don't think students need that much repitition to learn a concept and it just becomes time-consuming busy work. </p>
<p>Math homework credit--I like having homework being a good proportion of the grade, but for selfish reasons. I tutor math kids who know concepts, but through focus problems or learning disabilities or whatever, just can't put it together on an under-pressure timed test. To have the tests not be the be-all-and-end-all of the grade in the class helps them.</p>
<p>Unfortunately for them, the SATs are not so forgiving. . .</p>
<p>"Part of what high schools try to do is to teach students good study skills--doing homework, note taking, binder organization,etc. Maybe a student doesn't need to do these things to get a good grade in algebra or geometry, but I am concerned that when he does reach his performance level (probably in college), he won't have the skills to fall back on. "
ellemenope:I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point here...is it that you feel skipping a student in math could mean he/she would miss out on learning good study skills? The skills you mention are demanded in all subjects and can carry over from one to the other, so I don't think accelerating a student in an area of strength will mean the student is deprived of developing study skills. Maybe that might be true of a student who is skipped entire grades...</p>
<p>Not necessarily will those habits carry over...notes and studying in math is very different from notes and studying in social studies...</p>
<p>My D had a math teacher that would give homework quizzes...she would say, okay take out your note book folder and do the following problems...the kids could get an easy 100 if homework was neat and organized, while those that weren't so organized did poorly. The lesson was that math needs to be neat, precise and complete. Often very smart kids will take short cuts, because they do get the work, but if the good math habits aren't there, it will show when work gets harder.</p>
<p>Same for science, it is a different kind of learning, more logical, and many kids who have found subjects easy often don't take the notes and often can slide through without having to. But as you get to higher levels, it is important to not slip behind because of early habits.</p>
<p>Donemom--I was addressing the point brought out in an earlier post of whether it is right to penalize a math student who gets As on tests but, because he doesn't do homework or organize his notebook or whatever study skills the teacher is trying to establish, gets a B in the class. I feel it is important to learn certain study skills, even though the student may not need them to succeed in the present class.</p>
<p>I've already come out in an earlier post for being in favor of accelerating in math if possible.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Those essays in class are practice for the applications in a way. And, as I said before, it is easy to say, well the protaganist in Hamlet is so and so, but to be able to discuss something in ones own life and NOT be embarrassed is tough for some kids because they can't figure out exactlly what the teacher is looking for. And they have to think in a different way. Much like those college essays.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I sincerely hope that the whole point of k-12 education is NOT the writing of college application essays but preparing students for college. For their part, college profs have expressed dismay at college students whose mode of argument is "I feel," "I believe," "I think" rather than the presentation of evidence, properly sourced and logically organized.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Donemom--I was addressing the point brought out in an earlier post of whether it is right to penalize a math student who gets As on tests but, because he doesn't do homework or organize his notebook or whatever study skills the teacher is trying to establish, gets a B in the class. I feel it is important to learn certain study skills, even though the student may not need them to succeed in the present class.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with the general idea; however, my S has only been known to blow homework that was busywork and that was truly unnecessary. Once he was allowed to work on math or science at his level, he did everything that was required and more. There is far less busywork in college, which is why classes proceed at a much faster clip.</p>
<p>Regarding busywork, my son figured out that since he had to spend 7 hours a day in school, he might as well get his homework done. And so he did his math hw in his Spanish class, his Spanish in his English class, etc., and rarely actually had homework. There's a certain discipline in that, it seems to me. But as a result, in hs he never developed a "homework" habit. He always had lots of time at home to pursue his EC's and hobbies.</p>
<p>Ultimately, in college he learned that in math he had to keep up with the homework to build foundations for later work. Math itself was easy and very intuitive for him but the habit of doing assignments each day took time to develop. And his grades went from good to outstanding after he adapted his approach in math.</p>
<p>It'll make no difference in terms of college. People at my school who skip go both ways, in where they want, or stuck in safeties. I don't think the fact that they took college courses made any difference. The people who go HYP generally have perfect to near-perfect GPAs, and some skip to college courses, most don't.</p>
<p>And then there are those who skipped to college courses, apply early to HYPSM, and wind up at Boston College or Carnegie Mellon. Not bad schools at all, but not what they wanted. Makes no difference for college.</p>
<p>Also a consideration would be if your son likes to socialize. Taking a course at a college requires travel time which would very much disrupt his senior year. Will he want that? I didn't.</p>
<p>Anonymou5; That's why my son did the EPGY computer distance learning through Stanford. The travel issues (esp. because he didn't drive when this started) would have represented serious scheduling conflicts with his other high school classes and his ec's. The courses were challenging and very well set up (three successive math courses that followed BC Calculus).</p>
<p>No student should take college classes for the sake of going to HYPSM.
Interestingly, we broached the idea of EPGY to our high school. The teachers and deans had never heard of it and were very skeptical ; they were much more receptive to my S's taking more traditional college classes.
Taking them DID disrupt my S's ability to socialize; in fact, one of his essays addressed his efforts to minimize this side-effect.</p>
<p>Marite: once my son had exhausted the district's available math courses in 8th, there was no further requirement on the part of our high school to take math (altho the "Math Honor Society" did require him to be in some form of math). So whatever we did beyond 8th grade was completely our decision and responsibility.</p>
<p>Interesting. Our district insisted on 3 years of math and 3 years of science--it did not matter at what level. In fact, my S only did 2.5 years of math because of scheduling difficulties. The GC had to put in a waiver request to get my S exempted from the last .5 year of math. Since these were graduation requirements, the district paid for the college courses unless the school offered a similar course (eg, we paid for college bio which S took instead of AP Bio because of scheduling problems).
In terms of workload, college bio covered the same materials as AP-Bio, using the same textbook, but in 2/3 the time.</p>
<p>In the math world---just wondering at what stage 'supplemental' math courses could be taken?</p>
<p>I just spoke to the head of the math dept at son's HS and she said that our HS's math courses are even more rigorous than the local comm. college's. The HS even has some arrangement whereby certain math courses can be taken at HS and count for community college credit.</p>
<p>While I'm now thinking it may be safer/possibly better for son to stay in regular honors math---am thinking a nice compromise might be to take some college classes in math, beyond the traditional alg II--precal--calc progression. Maybe during summer after 9th and/or 10th grade.</p>
<p>Didn't know if anyone knew if there are certain 'lateral' classes (not traditionally offered in HS) that might be good and manageable for a bright kid who'll have finished alg 2, geom?</p>
<p>Thanks for any thoughts! I know the parents here are quite savvy re: advanced math!</p>
<p>Marite: Wow, that is quite different. In fact, at the end of junior year, my s. was undecided whether to take more math (he'd taken multi-variable integral and multi-variable differential), so he contacted the admissions office of several colleges, including H. that he was interested in to see if they cared. H. said as long as he was taking stuff he was interested in, it didn't matter (he's planning on medicine as a career), and Yale said math would only be relevant if he was portraying that as his main interest area. In the end, tho, he did decide to take one more course (LInear algebra). But, we did have to pay for them, and it was pricey, so you were very fortunate in that respect!</p>
<p>Jolynne: We considered statistics as a possible "lateral" math course. There were several different ones offered at a local college, varying in how much they relied on concepts from other upper level math courses.</p>