Smith vs Mount Holyoke

Parents Forum
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<p>Hmmm . . . . Not to split hairs, but my recollection is that the Barnard campus is located exclusively west of Broadway between 116th St. and 120th St., while the Columbia campus is exclusively east of Broadway at that point. Isn’t that “across the street”? Barnard’s website insists that “Barnard has its own campus” which “occupies four acres” (and links to a map showing the Barnard campus bounded by 116th, Broadway, 120th, and Claremont Ave.), but notes that “through the Barnard-Columbia partnership, students on BOTH campuses choose from a wide array of courses and academic resources.” (emphasis added)</p>

<p>You may not want to distinguish between the two campuses or the two schools, but apparently that distinction is important to Barnard which is intent on maintaining a separate identify, reinforced by maintaining a distinct campus across the street from Columbia’s. But now I guess am splitting hairs.</p>

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<p>Um, when the courses are fully integrated real estate loses meaning. My D’s favorite class was a Supreme Court Class listed as a Columbia class but available for her to sign up for as easily as her other classes. They went on a field trip to the Supreme Court and heard deliberations, and they weren’t Barnard and Columbia students, they were Columbia U. students.</p>

<p>I objected to “meeting men” as the reason to cross the street when the average Barnard student takes between 30 to 40% of her classes “across the street.”</p>

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<p>Actually, what I find interesting in that statement is not the emphasis on “both” but the use of ‘campuses’ instead of ‘schools.’ Brown still shows a ‘Pembroke campus’ on its map despite the fact that Pembroke hasn’t existed for 30+ years.</p>

<p>I could be wrong, but it feels to me like the Barnard/Columbia relationship is much more integrated than the 5-college consortium. I’m not sure how it compares to the Bryn Mawr-Haverford relationship.</p>

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<p>Barnard-Columbia is more integrated than anything else.</p>

<p>Still, I have heard Columbia students (not all of them, certainly, or even many of them, but some, and not all men, either) say chilling things about Barnard students. I fear that there is some degree of informal second-class citizenship.</p>

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<p>Back when D1 was applying we went to a road show put on the by the five remaining Sisters. And Barnard spent a lot of its time selling itself as a de facto backdoor into Columbia. I thought it was unfortunate that they didn’t try harder to promote themselves on their own merits. Maybe Barnard should be done with it and fully integrate into Columbia - as Radcliffe did with Harvard.</p>

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<p>Barnard was begged to, but chose not too.</p>

<p>Usually Barnard does the opposite. Not a whisper of any “backdoor” at any event I’ve been too. You go right through the front door of the Barnard gates.</p>

<p>And the palpable feminism of D’s graduation made it abundantly clear why Barnard decline to bow to the pressure to integrate with Columbia.</p>

<p>D’s experience was wonderful and many Barnard women feel the same way.</p>

<p>Yes, there is an occasionally chilling comment by Columbia students. FWIW (nothing really, but there are those who care) Columbia students have higher SAT scores, Barnard students a higher GPA. That is actually consistent with gender. Men outperform women on the SAT; women outperform men in HS in terms of their GPA.</p>

<p>Within the classroom it’s impossible to separate the Barnard women from the Columbia women unless you ask them. And D found it easier to get an A in Columbia classes than in Barnard classes. Just anecdotal.</p>

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<p>The speaker/adcom from Barnard never used the term “backdoor.” That’s just my description of what they appeared to be pushing. What she did say was:</p>

<p>Columbia is right across the street.
You can take classes at Columbia.
You can use the Columbia library.
You can use the Columbia athletic facilities.
You can park your car at Columbia.
You can meet/date plenty of boys at Columbia.</p>

<p>It was all Columbia, Columbia, Columbia. I left wondering what Barnard had to offer (other than access to Columbia).</p>

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<p>I didn’t dispute your experience. I just said mine was different.</p>

<p>And I’m glad your daughters found such wonderful schools more to their liking.</p>

<p>My daughter was very happy at Barnard.</p>

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<p>How can that be? </p>

<p>93% of Columbia admits were in the top 10th and 98% were in the top <em>20th</em>…Barnard, 74% in top 10th and 90% in the top <em>25th</em></p>

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<p>My DD may apply to Barnard, so I’ve been very interested in your D’s experience at Barnard, Mythmom (in addition to your other very level-headed posts on other issues).</p>

<p>Our takeaway from Barnard was a “best of both worlds” deal. You basically get Columbia without the Core plus the option of a smaller more nurturing environment. Statistics wise, it certainly looks like Barnard is easier to get into than Columbia, but I’ve never heard that Barnard students can’t hold their own in Columbia classes. As for rivalry: back when the dinosaurs roamed and I was looking at colleges, Barnard women had a reputation for being smarter than Columbia men. I guess what goes around, comes around.</p>

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<p>My D and I visited both Barnard and Columbia, and found that the Barnard tour was much more personalized than the Columbia one. All of the statements about the advantages of Barnard for access to Columbia are true: there are the resources of Butler library, for example, and much else besides. Barnard faculty who are hired to tenure-track positions have to go through the same (grueling) tenure process as their counterparts at Columbia.</p>

<p>The basic question that a student applying to Barnard wants to ask would be, “do I want to be in New York City for four years, with the personal attention of a LAC, with v. strong programs for women, and the resources of a university?” My D. liked Barnard as a women’s college and Columbia, despite feeling ambivalent about the Core, and applied to both. She withdrew her B. application after she was accepted at her three top-choice schools. As she was still making up her mind, and was going to be in NYC anyway on admitted students’ weekend, she made a further visit to Columbia. She found that the appeal of NYC was considerable, but that Columbia, to quote her, “doesn’t feel like it has any campus culture.” My impression is that this “campus culture” is what Barnard is looking to supply, especially with the brand-new, just-opened student center.</p>

<p>There have always been a small number of Columbia College boys who – for whatever reason that’s known to teenaged boys – dismiss Barnard students. : ( Back when those proverbial dinosaurs roamed the upper West Side, that is, before Columbia went co-ed, Columbia College undergrads would look to date girls from Fashion Institute of Technology while the Barnard undergrads who dated went out with grad students.</p>

<p>Barnard has a new President this year, Deborah Spar, who seems likely to be expanding more on the “women’s college” aspects. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Barnard doing something of what Smith has done, cautiously adding graduate programs in areas of business, for example, geared towards women.</p>

<p>Before this post gets any longer, I’d say, sure, check out Barnard if you are interested in a great women’s college in one of the greatest cities in the US, with the resources of a great university. And sure, check out Columbia College, too, while you’re at it.</p>

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<p>My D went to Mt Holyoke for her freshman year, she too was excited about the art department and museum on campus (studio art major at MHC). She couldn’t handle the remote atmosphere although she loved the campus. She comes from a "small"ish town in So Cal that closes up by 10 pm, she said, “you know it’s bad here when you’re longing for the hustle bustle of closing at 10 pm place!” </p>

<p>We liked Northampton but it was still too far from So. Hadley for her (the bus stops early and takes a long 'round about journey). We liked Amherst as well, but again, required the bus and the schedule was not that great. </p>

<p>Alas, my D transferred out and is now living and going to school in NYC, she really was going stir crazy in So. Hadley, regardless of the beauty.</p>

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<p>Another note on Barnard: D said that she thought you had to love NYC to go to school there; she liked NYC but didn’t love it. “Too hard to see the sky,” was one of her comments. </p>

<p>Probably the most damning thing was when we were nailed to our seats in one of the student centers, she went around talking to students at Columbia. <em>Nobody</em> mentioned classes or academics…it was all about doing stuff at NYC. Barnard fared better but because of NYC & environs, it emptied out on the weekends. There wasn’t the fabric of campus life that she was looking for.</p>

<p>I suppose it is time for the ritual re-telling of the joke about four of the womens colleges.</p>

<p>At each college, a professor walks into the classroom at 9:00am and says, “Good morning, class.”</p>

<p>At Wellesley, 20 students furiously scribble “Good morning, class” in their notebooks.</p>

<p>At Mount Holyoke, the students wait expectantly.</p>

<p>At Smith, one student says, “What do you mean by ‘Good,’ how do you know my values align with yours?” A second says, “‘Morning’ is Western-hemisphere-centric.” A third says, “Aren’t we supposed to eliminate classist language?”</p>

<p>At Barnard, nobody says anything because they all got home at 5:00am and are home in their dorm rooms sleeping.</p>

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<p>My son had several close friends who chose Barnard. They always maintained – convincingly so – that they loved Barnard because it was Barnard. The relationship with Columbia was like the cherry on the sundae but not the main appeal.</p>

<p>Surprisingly, in conversations with their parents (mothers, actually) the Columbia tie-in always rose to the top of the positive attribute list. On several occasions in fact, I was told that since the graduate’s diploma reads “Columbia” attending Barnard was “just the same as” attending Columbia. So, maybe it’s the parents who are distorting the perception of how Barnard students feel about Columbia. </p>

<p>[I must stress that Mythmom is NOT a guilty party here!]</p>

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<p>Bowwatch, in terms of quality and reputation you really can’t go wrong with either Smith or MH. So apply to both and spend time on campus while students are there. The area is gorgeous with access to almost unlimited cultural resources. During the academic year there are upwards of 40,000 (!) undergrads in the Valley. Some have mentioned the 5-College bus; but I don’t think anyone mentioned that it’s free–a big plus for college students. There is a direct line between Smith and UMass. The regular circuit that hits the outlying campuses (MH and Hampshire) can be a bit long; but it’s a good time to study and/or meet people. Finally, a bit of trivia…Those of us who lived in Northamption back in “the old days” (70s & 80s) knew it as Hamp; more recently it has come to be known as NoHo.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Ditto to the perception that it is easier to get As at Columbia than at Barnard, at least in certain subjects. As for an above poster, would you expect Columbia women to agree that Barnard women are as capable as they are?</p>

<p>And the Barnard campus empties out on weekends? We sure don’t know that. My girl comes home only for school vacations and the rare family event (twice last year) that compels her attendance. We are a short ride away via public transit. She can’t wait to get back to school from summer vacation. (Maybe that’s because she has 2 jobs and almost never has an entire day off.)</p>

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<p>Guys, as much as I love Barnard I didn’t mean to derail the thread. It was just the “walking across the street to meet men” comment that did me in. My Barnard woman would have been appalled reading that.</p>

<p>I want to admit to my agenda here. I adore Smith. I think I wanted to go when we toured. I just feel bad for the Mount Holyoke folks who always have to read that Smith is glossier or shinier.</p>

<p>I love an underdog. So I’m sorry if I took things in a wrong direction.</p>

<p>Mt. Holyoke is more remote. And I think NoHo is a great advantage for Smith, apart from its very vibrant campus.</p>

<p>I do think there are some things about Mt. Holyoke that are quite desirable too, and I just want all our little five sisters to play nice.</p>

<p>Including me!!!</p>

<p>Bryn Mawr, we love you. You’ve very quiet on this thread, but I know you’re there.</p>

<p>I do think the women’s colleges empower women. My D from Barnard seems more confident that S’s Williams GF. However, as in all things, I do think this varies very much from person to person. I attended a co-ed college and I didn’t suffer from it.</p>

<p>Anyway, I am not anti-Smith in any way. A beautiful exciting place in every way.</p>

<p>I should have know better than to even mention Barnard becomes it always stirs up controversy.</p>

<p>By the way, D is faring so poorly in the job market right now that I don’t think it would have mattered which school she attended. She has been accepted to a prestigious major.</p>

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<p>There is an extension of this joke in which the professor sees what is happening and says “Wait, you don’t have to write that down.” And the 20 students then scribble “Wait, you don’t have to write that down.”</p>

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<p>Many still do. The community and high school crew team are known as Hamp Crew not Noho crew.</p>

<p>Referring to Northampton as Noho is as grating to some locals as referring to San Francisco as Frisco is to Calif natives (if there is such a thing as a Calif. native.) </p>

<p>I don’t have preference, but if you said Hamp to recent arrivals and tourists, they’d assume you were speaking of Hampshire College. It can get very confusing. :confused:</p>

<p>You can also quite easily distinguish the transients from natives when they pronounce Amherst. It’s Amerst, silent h. </p>

<p>And Greenwich, CT, is pronounced, oh, never mind…</p>

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<p>I know of more than a few MHC women who thank you.</p>