So...asians...are we really that screwed?

Applying to College
61

<p>But Asian parents (any parents for that matter) shouldn't be worried about college admissions unless their son or daughter has already expressed interest about it.</p>

<p>I think it's absurd that so many parents nowadays put the pressure on kids to attend these top colleges, enrolling them in countless activities that the kids have no interest in. If parents would just focus on what the kids are interested in, this whole issue would be a lot less prominent. </p>

<p>They shouldn't be focused on their kids' academic achievements, nor their kid trying to "stand out" from each other, they need to be considered with whether the kid is enjoying what they're doing.</p>

62

<p>My immigrant Asian parents have already woken up to the dynamic world of college admissions. When I was little, they made me learn a traditional art and pushed me academically. Now they are acting differently toward my little sibling--encouraging my sibling to pursue "passions" in an uncommon sport, an uncommon instrument, and student leadership...not typically Asian things. They of course are pushing my sibling academically too, since As are still important, but they have woken up to the importance of standing out in extracurriculars.</p>

63

<p>I think leadership is a big thing. I remember being told by my parents not to make any trouble, question things, or make myself stand out. (They constantly worry about me standing out, as if I'll become some sort of hate target.) Leadership, by definition, is making oneself stand out. I feel like I'm treading into unPC area again, but a lot of the cultural values are different from American values. There's a general "go with the flow" kind of attitude that often ends up with Asians being characterized as doormats. And the lack of "standing out" is precisely what ends up hurting applicants to top colleges. They want to see people (I think.) who have challenged norms and taken on controversial issues and leadership roles, all things that aren't necessarily encouraged in Asian cultures.</p>

64

<p>"college admissions is a business."
that may be right, but I wonder if colleges dare to say that out loud.</p>

65

<p>
[quote]
Because thats a compliment windslicer ...<a href="On%20saying%20that%20Blacks%20are%20good%20a%20bball">/quote</a></p>

<p>You've got it wrong. It revolves around the same complex as the problem of Asian student. A few individuals are highlighted to have great potential in their fields and as a result, the rest of the group is labeled along with them. That they as a general are given positive reviews in certain aspects severely restricts the majority in the same group that isn't good at it.</p>

66

<p>"And the lack of "standing out" is precisely what ends up hurting applicants to top colleges. They want to see people (I think.) who have challenged norms and taken on controversial issues and leadership roles, all things that aren't necessarily encouraged in Asian cultures."</p>

<p>Yes.
And what is also valued by colleges, as an aspect of leadership, is the quality of sacrificing one's own advancement for the good of a group, a common goal, a noble cause larger than one's merit, larger than one's test scores, GPA, & public or private awards. That is sometimes these days what is meant by leadership. It doesn't just mean being in charge (& thus standing out); it means taking responsibility to be the doer and the role model for an effort.</p>

<p>If these aspects that I just mentioned, & that you mentioned, are antithetical to some immigrant cultures, that is not the fault of U.S. colleges, nor the fault/responsibility of competitors of that applicant. It is up to the newcomer to make a genuine effort to assimilate -- which may take some time, yes; the gradual nature of that is understandable. What is not acceptable is to require the host country to accept rigid cultural norms of any newcomer, & then yell "discrimination" because the newcomer's norms are not adopted by the host's institutions.</p>

67

<p>Actually, fabrizio, you are the one who, in your post #46, initiated the discussion of Asians as a whole group, a put-upon group, a supposedly discriminated against group, which has not been demonstrated. I was responding to the group-think that you seem to have a hard time extricating yourself from, when it comes to an honest & realistic & statistically accurate view of college admissions, including upper-tier colleges.</p>

<p>Thus, I was responding to the orientation of "Asians as a group." I actually didn't think it was even necessary to bring up the BWRK examples, except that some people refuse to see anything except in the light of Asians-Against-the-World.</p>

<p>None of my posts say or imply that Asians are "all the same." However, many of the posts by Asians imply that Asians are (mainly) the same, or overwhelmingly similar, and/or should be treated as a group, or are treated as a group, none of which is true for college admisisons. College admissions people do not treat all Asians the same, nor view all Asians in the same light. If they did, you would see very different admissions results. They see them as individuals. When, like BWRK's, they fail to distinguish themselves from others in an applicant pool, admissions committees see them as less desirable <em>individuals</em> than those OF ANY ETHNICITY who do distinguish themselves from other applicants of any ethnicity. Colleges do not view Asians as less desirable as a <em>group.</em> That's why the charge of discrimination is a phony one, & one which reveals more about the accusers than the accused. It reveals a very large chip on one's shoulder that stands in the way of success & happiness & peace with one's own efforts. It is a negative orientation that assumes a prejudice.</p>

68

<p>
[quote]

Actually, fabrizio, you are the one who, in your post #46, initiated the discussion of Asians as a whole group, a put-upon group, a supposedly discriminated against group, which has not been demonstrated.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Has not been demonstrated? Is that so? </p>

<p>I stated that "We have people deriding us for placing a high emphasis on education" and "We have people saying that it's OK to punish someone for hard work."</p>

<p>From TheMK99,</p>

<p>
[quote]
While I do not believe asians are screwed, if they are, it is through their own fault by embracing fierce competition.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I also stated that "We have people assuming that every Asian who earns a 2400 is a mindless automaton."</p>

<p>From 88keys,</p>

<p>
[quote]

would they rather have 100% asians at there school (which would prolly be the case if AA didn't exist) or would they rather hey have a smattering of races (which may include a lot of asians, but not a vast majority)???</p>

<p>They want a blend that fosters tolerance and a colorful environment.
What they do not want is a bunch of 2400 SAT drones.
I have a little story...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>epiphany, I am not the one who initiated the discussion of Asians as a "whole group, a put-upon group, a supposedly discriminated against group." I am merely an individual who noticed some existing discrimination in this thread and brought it to light.</p>

<p>
[quote]

None of my posts say or imply that Asians are "all the same."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is that so? Are you telling me that a "million students with those same e.c.'s" does not imply that Asians are "all the same", given the original context (ie. no reference to BWRK)?</p>

<p>
[quote]

College admissions people do not treat all Asians the same, nor view all Asians in the same light.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]

That's why the charge of discrimination is a phony one, & one which reveals more about the accusers than the accused.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A quotation from the article, "Too Asian?" as follows:</p>

<p>Based on working with institutions where Asian enrollment exceed 25 percent — something that is increasingly common at elite publics in California and top universities elsewhere — she said she hears lots of talk about admissions officers who complain about “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin” or people who say “I don’t want another boring Asian.”</p>

<p><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>No, I don't think the charge of discrimination is phony at all. It is certainly not fake if remarks like "it is through their own fault by embracing fierce competition" and "bunch of 2400 SAT drones" are openly tolerated.</p>

69

<p>Do we have control over any "discrimination" that some say will be bound to happen during the admissions process? Um. no. So why bother trying to prove a point "it's unfair", "it's your fault", etc. etc. etc. It seems like neither side is going to change their opinions, and the adcoms are going to choose whomever they think they should pick whether you like it or not. </p>

<p>and i'm pretty ticked off at the person who even started this thread. you're asking what the "typical asian" applicant is like and complain about how you are categorized as an "Asian," which lowers(?) chances for you to get into a good college/university. Then you list your stats, saying that your SAT score is just average, you're only in the Top 1% (how much higher can you get?), volunteering only 150hrs.. etc.. 2250 and being top 1% seem "average" to you because you are that "typical asian" that you complain about. So if you want to know what a "typical asian" student is then go look in the mirror.
It is because of people like you and parents of people like you that school directors in charge of SAT centers are making profit out of selling tests or essay topics a head of time so that you can get your 2300+ and then no longer complain about "typical asian" kid because you feel like you've achieved something. i mean, how much more do you want?</p>

<p>If you want to live a good life, work your hardest and stop trying to compare yourself to whatever the society or YOU think is "typical" while complaining about your pitiful situation of being disadvantaged or whatever-- because with grades and stats like yours you are an above average college applicant and will probably get into better colleges than most high school seniors. your being "disadvantaged" admissions is nothing compared to the disadvantaged LIFE that many Americans have to deal with daily, not just in college admissions.</p>

<p>and don't give me the "are you asian? hmm? are you caucasian? are you black?" because that has nothing to do with this..</p>

70

<p>why didn't u say that to M.L. King?</p>

71

<p>No, I'm saying this to the Asian guy who think he's martin luther king, fighting for the rights of his 2250, top 1% stats and overdone e/cs against the stereotype that a typical asian should be considered to be a 2400, top 0.0001%. </p>

<p>and is he going to fight against the so-called system of Asian discrimination by refusing to apply to any IVY league or any college for that matter, to prove his point? I dont think so.</p>

72

<p>
[quote]

It seems like neither side is going to change their opinions, and the adcoms are going to choose whomever they think they should pick whether you like it or not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't have any problems with your second statement, but I do have problems with the first.</p>

<p>You've read the posts in this thread. You've encountered some blatant discrimination. Like I've said, there's a problem when it's OK for someone to make a statement like "bunch of 2400 SAT drones."</p>

73

<p>yes i agree, it is a problem that people are starting to categorize 2400 SAT applicants as non-human, crazy over-achievers, or as someone said in this thread, "drones." </p>

<p>however, i highly doubt that admissions officers of the most prestigious universities [whose goals are obviously to provide a intellectual yet diverse college atmosphere] will do the same. </p>

<p>and that is what i mean when i say that there is nothing we can do, if there happens to be that kind of discrimination that some people are complaining about.
because no matter how many groups of people complain about their disadvantages, they won't be the ones admitting applicants. the school will.</p>

74

<p>Still, I wonder if the schools DARE to admit the discriminations.</p>

75

<p>"Are you telling me that a "million students with those same e.c.'s" does not imply that Asians are "all the same", given the original context.." </p>

<p>Yes, I am telling you it does not imply that. It was an extension, a hypothetical. It was not a statement that all Asians have the same e.c.'s, or that there are in fact "a million of them." However, the truth is that there is more of a <em>pattern</em> of particular e.c.'s (along with particular expectations of what those e.c.'s will or should result in) among Asian (esp. East Asian) college applicants than among other sub-groups of applicants. If there were a million of them, a thousand of them, a hundred of them, all outscoring every single other applicant to only the upper-level "elites," it's still doubtful that those elites would accept "all" of whatever such a number would be. Without a significant differentiation in the e.c. pool, an overabundance of such a group would not bring enough differentiation to those campuses. That is not "discrimination."</p>

<p>And I am telling you that admissions committees are likely to view such overwhelming numbers with the same yawn that greeted the BWRK's at Duke. I don't care "when" I mentioned the BWRK's. That has nothing to do with anything.</p>

76

<p>um. we can sharpie ourselves green.
and then check off other and put "green"</p>

77

<p>
[quote]

Yes, I am telling you it does not imply that. It was an extension, a hypothetical. It was not a statement that all Asians have the same e.c.'s, or that there are in fact "a million of them."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Good to know.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, the truth is that there is more of a <em>pattern</em> of particular e.c.'s (along with particular expectations of what those e.c.'s will or should result in) among Asian (esp. East Asian) college applicants than among other sub-groups of applicants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Whenever the words truth and pattern are used to describe one entity in the same sentence, there’s a good chance that the author is employing a stereotype.</p>

<p>All I have to say is that there is too much oversimplification in this “truth.”</p>

<p>
[quote]
Without a significant differentiation in the e.c. pool, an overabundance of such a group would not bring enough differentiation to those campuses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Each individual is inherently unique. How can people, different by nature, fail to bring diversity to a campus?</p>

<p>
[quote]

That is not "discrimination."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed, selecting candidates to fit school needs is not necessarily discrimination.</p>

<p>But, comments like “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin” or “I don’t want another boring Asian” are highly indicative of existing discrimination.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And I am telling you that admissions committees are likely to view such overwhelming numbers with the same yawn that greeted the BWRK's at Duke. I don't care "when" I mentioned the BWRK's. That has nothing to do with anything.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It matters because you only brought them up to try to distance yourself from the “million students with those same e.c.'s” comment.</p>

<p>epiphany, you can't deny that there is discrimination against Asians. It is not imaginary. Remarks like “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin” and “I don’t want another boring Asian” have been uttered by adcoms.</p>

78

<p>Why are international students the worst?
I am an international student and I don't want to be screwed</p>

79

<p>International students have it worse off because:
1. no need blind admission anywhere (there are only a few for US citiznes too, so yea)
2. colleges are allowed to have quotas
3. there are lots of insanly smart people from china, india, and korea
4. I forget the rest, but I think Cornell likes internationals (more than the other Ivys). They have about 100 international Koreans according to my friend.</p>

80

<p>Slight correction- Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Williams, Middlebury, and Earlham are need-blind for internationals. Most of these are incredibly selective, though.</p>