So...asians...are we really that screwed?

Applying to College
41

<p>Ok So even though I'm not Asian, I'll still be as objective as possible...</p>

<p>Super selective colleges love diversity, which means this:
would they rather have 100% asians at there school (which would prolly be the case if AA didn't exist) or would they rather hey have a smattering of races (which may include a lot of asians, but not a vast majority)???</p>

<p>They want a blend that fosters tolerance and a colorful environment.
What they do not want is a bunch of 2400 SAT drones.
I have a little story...</p>

<p>A girl at my school is incredibly intelligent (5 on 2 APs [as a sophomore], straight A+s prolly). She is either planning Olympiad work or always has her head in a book, including 3+ SAT study books her parents got her, saying "We expect a 2400 the first time!!" Anyway, one day, she showed up at a play audition, and actually auditioned with, as far as everyone could see, no previous experience. She didn't make the part obviously, and what she did just made me sad... She had no passion for performing arts, no experience, she just thought it would contribute to a multidimensional college app. </p>

<p>School's would rather have a performing arts major/athlete because it adds so much more color (in a spirit sense, not a race sense) to the student body than an absolutely brilliant genius who reads and works on homework all the time.</p>

<p>That's how I see it.</p>

42

<p>college admissions is a business.</p>

43

<p>Generally I think that the discrimination is done by weighting EC's. Sports, theatre, etc. are weighted more heavily than are music, math awards, and so on. </p>

<p>I don't think there is much overt discrimination - I doubt that many schools subtract points for being Asian.</p>

<p>Now, for being female, on the other hand... I'll bet that they set a quota for males and make sure that that quota is filled.</p>

44

<p>all in all, an asian international male applicant stands at the worst of the worst positions. </p>

<p>So, think of them!</p>

45

<p>I believe that Asians are currently the only race in the United States who can be discriminated against without fear of reprisal.</p>

<p>Look at some of the posts on this thread.</p>

<p>We have people assuming that every Asian who earns a 2400 is a mindless automaton.</p>

<p>We have people deriding us for placing a high emphasis on education.</p>

<p>We have people saying that it's OK to punish someone for hard work.</p>

<p>Politics should NOT influence higher education.</p>

46

<p>Re Post #44.</p>

<p>You may "think" that, but you're wrong. They don't "weight" supposedly frequently-Asian (my term) e.c.'s as less valuable/important. They just don't need a million students with those same e.c.'s. If the college was lacking 1st & 2nd violinists in the campus orchestra, that particular e.c. that year would actually be weighted more favorably in admission, to fill the campus need. You don't get it yet that Asians often oversupply certain e.c.'s? Same for math awards as an admission criterion, and same for prospective science majors. You think maybe every top U.S. college should look like some Beijing Tech University of North America?</p>

<p>Re Post #45:</p>

<p>Can you hear yourself? He stands "at the worst of the worst positions"? He is being allowed to apply & compete, with both Americans & other internationals, to admission to some of the finest universities on the globe. He doesn't need citizenship in this country to do so. He doesn't need to jump through some of the hoops & pre-qualifications that he would have to do were he an American applying for admission to some overseas universities. He is being graced with an opportunity to live at least temporarily in a free & open society -- possibly unlike his own, with abundant economic opportunities to boot. The acquired education, training, & lifestyle he assumes may allow him to become a far wealthier individual than what he might expect in his country of origin, & may persuade him, & allow him, to continue living here, raising a family, & bestowing them as well with such a fine education.</p>

<p>Yes, he is definitely in the worst of the worst positions.</p>

<p>No one has a "right" to attend a particular top U.S. university or even a particular level of University. Not any American. Not any non-American. It is a privilege. And not guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.</p>

47

<p>
[quote]

They just don't need a million students with those same e.c.'s.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you for further discriminating against my people. Contrary to your beliefs, we are not homogeneous hivelike beings.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You think maybe every top U.S. college should look like some Beijing Tech University of North America?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>An impossible scenario. It might seem shocking, but there is variation among Asians.</p>

48

<p>Post #47:</p>

<p>I agree with your "re post #44 statement". I think some people have the wrong idea of math/music/science EC are less "valuable" than say... pottery making. Do you really think that colleges are out there with a check book to make sure that all math/music/science EC people are rejected? Of course not! Those ECs are valuable, except for the fact that (seemingly) lots of people are doing the same thing. If all the applicants were interact officers, then nobody would really put that much weight on it. Same deal. </p>

<p>By the way, I'm an International, so... I think epiphany has a point. Though really, if I get rejected, I can at least complain that I was in the "worst of the worst positions". ;)</p>

49

<p>DIVERSITY.</p>

<p>I'm surprised that a group as intelligent as ya'll can't understand this simple principle.</p>

<p>Private Universities can choose to have their campus represent the American demographics.</p>

50

<p>No one is "discriminating" against "your" people -- least of all, me, who is not in a position to either favor or discriminate. Nor did anyone say that there is no variation among Asians -- only that where variation does not exist or exists less so, among a segment of any applicant pool, that segment will face an uphill battle in getting recognized as making unique & new contributions to a campus community.</p>

<p>Fact: Several years ago Rachel Toor wrote a book about the sameness of a particular ethnic group from a particular economic class & a recognizable pattern, applying to the Ivy League. She dubbed them BWRK's: bright, well-rounded kids. Their ethnicity? Caucasian. During her employment in Duke admissions, this group suffered a loss in representation, due to the sameness of their applications, their backgrounds, their accomplishments. They weren't being discriminated against. They weren't being stereotyped actually, either When they were rejected, they were rejected for not distinguishing themselves as anything other than one more similar member of a group. Like Asians, when they were accepted, they were accepted for bringing something recognizably both valuable AND different/unusual to the campus. So if you can demonstrate unusual attributes, etc., you will have no "disadvantage" in the applicant pool -- except of course if there are several very similar students to you applying from your high school. HYP won't admit all of them -- at least, very rarely, no matter how qualified. They want all 50 States in there.</p>

<p>But hey, wait. Continue on with your persecution complexes. It will get you very far in undergraduate admissios, and in life.</p>

51

<p>Hmm....a lot of people on this site really care about these minor differences. I just thought it was interesting how some people claim that Asians have it tougher. I don't think you can blame your race if you get rejected from Harvard. I really doubt this thing will affect stuff that much, and anyways it doesn't really matter. Its just college. Doesn't really matter which school you go to, just depends on what you do at the school. Maybe i'm too new in this college admissions thing since some of you seem to have been fully aware of the entire process since Middle school, but we should chill and let whatever college we get into take us and just strive for no regrets. You can't regret being your race...btw</p>

52

<p>Persecution complex? You make that remark as if it were unjustified for me to be angry at your nonchalant stereotyping of Asians.</p>

<p>I don't know about you, but "They just don't need a million students with those same e.c.'s" is offensive, especially when the original context of your remarks are considered (ie. this "million students" group refers to Asians and not Whites).</p>

<p>I emphasize original because later on you extended your argument to include Whites.</p>

<p>I do apologize if it seemed as if I was being unfair to you. I want to make it clear that I think it is unacceptable for Asians to be stereotyped like the way you and others have done.</p>

53

<p>I don't think this is black-and-white. Epiphany has a point about "persecution complexes" and fabrizio has a point about stereotypes--they can both be right. But one thing is for certain: the effect of being Asian on college admissions is only our guess...we are all ASSUMING that colleges make decisions based on someone's being Asian. For all we know they couldn't care less, and we're just blowing this issue way bigger than it needs to be.</p>

54

<p>I have not stereotyped you. Rachel Toor also thought that there were "a million" BWRK's applying to Duke. Not a stereotype. An observation that a pool that looks virtually undistinguishable from one another (her observations, not mine) also appears to have an "infinite" sameness, not due to prejudice: due to their own failure to chart a different path from others in their SES group. Eventually, she tired of reading their apps because their sameness made them boring. (Again, her words not mine.) The University wanted freshness & non-boring. They didn't want one more cookie-cutter BWRK.</p>

<p>Yes, you have a persecution complex.</p>

55

<p>Out in the American society you see Asians usually quiet, peaceful, working hard and trying to give a good life to their kids. They are almost like the pioneering whites who built up this country. It is sad if others denigrate them because of jealousy. It is just not right! Do you want the Asian parents not to encourage their kids to study hard? Will that be in our country's interest? With all the technical and scientific manpower shortage in our country, thank God for the Asians.
I'd advice the Asians to focus on colleges other than the top 25. For any motivated student even a II or III-tier university can work well.</p>

56

<p>Exactly, CollegeBound. They will do well at alternate colleges; they will distinguish themselves; they may in fact eventually found their own colleges. </p>

<p>And yes, thank God for the technical & technological expertise & focus of many Asian-Americans & many Asian internationals at our colleges & in our society. Couldn't agree more. But the top 25 do not want to become overwhelmingly technological. They want balance. I am definitely not jealous, speaking for myself. Nor are non-Asians I run across jealous, overall, of Asian students when it comes to admission-readiness.</p>

57

<p>
[quote]

I have not stereotyped you. Rachel Toor also thought that there were "a million" BWRK's applying to Duke. Not a stereotype. An observation that a pool that looks virtually undistinguishable from one another (her observations, not mine) also appears to have an "infinite" sameness, not due to prejudice: due to their own failure to chart a different path from others in their SES group. Eventually, she tired of reading their apps because their sameness made them boring. (Again, her words not mine.) The University wanted freshness & non-boring. They didn't want one more cookie-cutter BWRK.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'd like to remind you that you brought up the "BWRKs" into the discussion after you had mentioned the "million students with those same e.c.'s." At that time, you were NOT talking about BWRKs. You were referring to Asians. You consciously approved of a stereotype against us.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, I would like to applaud your attempt at trying to hide your initial use of a stereotype by trying to expand your argument.</p>

<p>I am criticizing you because to me, it appears as if you approve of the "All Asians are the same" stereotype.</p>

<p>There is something wrong when a statement like "million students with those same e.c.'s" with respect to Asians is treated as truth, but another statement like "All blacks excel at basketball" is racist.</p>

58

<p>IMO, if someone said "All blacks excel at basketball", I don't think anyone would call the person out as a racist..</p>

59

<p>Because thats a compliment windslicer ... </p>

<p>I think you guys missed the most important post in this entire thread</p>

<p>"college admissions is a business."</p>

<p>It was said a while back by someone</p>

60

<p>It's not objectionable to say that <em>many</em> (but not all, obviously) ambitious parents of Asian children will encourage (in different degrees - some fanatically, others just in a suggestion sense) their children to pursue quantifiable accomplishments in practical areas like high grades and math/science awards. I did an article on this for a local paper. It's understandable that many parents, and not just Asian parents, want their children to be practical and succeed in fields that will help their future prospects.</p>

<p>This is also exacerbated by the fact that many Asian families are immigrant families. Immigrants of any race have to prove themselves in a new culture, therefore, they're less likely to encourage their children to pursue impractical interests. It's a matter of paying back for hardships. Obviously, it takes a great deal of courage and sacrifice to move to a new country and be forced to start again from scratch, so the push to succeed in an often very conventional way may be from fear of taking risks to jeopardize those previous sacrifices.</p>

<p>And I don't think anyone is saying that it is <em>bad</em> for parents to give their children a push to succeed academically. Obviously, this shouldn't be taken to the extremes, however, I feel that (cheesily enough), the most push should come from the student himself.</p>

<p>For example. I am a Chinese female. I struggled so much with AP Chemistry last year to the point where I sometimes ended up in tears. My parents, though they obviously were worried about my grades and college prospects, began to encourage me to drop the class, seeing how miserable I was. But it ultimately was my own decision to stick with the class. I didn't regret it. Have my parents pushed me academically? A bit. But what I think a lot of Asians/Non Asians will blame on pushy parents is just as much a part of the child as it is the parent.</p>

<p>Again, back to the "sameness" of Asian applicants that is being argued here. Math and science are seen as the profitable, practical interests, no argument there. I myself have a writing, designing bent and I know that that's not exactly the most lucrative thing to be interested in. It's interesting to note that statistically, Asians score higher on the SAT Math section, despite socioeconomic differences between themselves and their white counterparts. (There is only a slight difference between very poor Asians and very rich whites, I believe.) </p>

<p>My post isn't really going anywhere now, but I just wanted to add that perhaps Asian parents should be better educated about college admissions so they realize that to get into a top college, yes, academics are extremely important. But so is to "stand out" from other Asian applicants, and to that effect, to encourage their children to do what interests them.</p>