So colleges say they like "edgy" students...

Applying to College
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<p>When colleges say that they reserve certain spots for transfers because such students add value to the class, are they referring to students who didn't do so well in high school or who didn't have the eye on the prize, so to speak, but have since excelled? ...in other words, late-bloomers who have demonstrated their love for learning (in HS outside the classroom), despite not getting good grades in HS? How about kids who started out as academic superstars until their lives fell apart in HS, thus effecting a downward GPA trend but who still pursued their academic interests outside the classroom setting (perhaps because the high school stifled creativity by rewarding only or mostly the cookie-cutter types)? I do realize that the student's college GPA must be topnotch in order to show academic promise.</p>

<p>Colleges often say that they like "edgy" kids or kids who took "major risks." Does this group include kids who've achieved extraordinary accomplishments (academic or otherwise) outside the classroom, despite getting only mediocre grades in HS but topnotch grades in college? Kids who have gone extraordinary lengths to pursue their academic interests, despite knowledge that their efforts would not be recognized (not rewarded by the GPA system) and exerted purely out of personal satisfaction? Or maybe they attained national recognition for such pursuits but still suffer from a mediocre HS GPA (despite a high college GPA)? What about those types? Or do the top colleges take in only kids who took major risks and succeeded, because after all, there is little to no room for "failure" in today's hyper-competitive admissions game? I think that students who didn't have the top colleges as their aim while in HS often get left behind. I highly doubt that many such schools would take a chance on such students, despite their claims of wanting students who are not cookie-cutter types. After all, they already have too many non-cookie-cutter applicants who also excelled in everything while in high school. I know what many of you are thinking. If the student took such major risks and didn't succeed (in the sense that he or she was not able to maintain a high GPA at the same time in high school), he or she doesn't deserve to attend the best colleges. But where should such a student end up? Surely, he or she deserves to be in an environment where he/she can thrive...at the very least in a college that doesn't mimic high school learning. Which colleges would seriously consider admitting such a student? I'm not suggesting that the top colleges are the be-all and end-all of everything, but they (like many colleges perceived "below" them) can provide the optimal experience for many such students. I'm interested in hearing about all sorts of options.</p>

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<p>Any hope ?</p>

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<p>"Kids who have gone extraordinary lengths to pursue their academic interests, despite knowledge that their efforts would not be recognized (not rewarded by the GPA system) and exerted purely out of personal satisfaction? Or maybe they attained national recognition for such pursuits but still suffer from a mediocre HS GPA (despite a high college GPA)?"</p>

<p>Both types of students may end up doing very well in their chosen fields in life, but still may not do well in college because doing well in college requires the ability to work hard even when courses don't interest you much.</p>

<p>The best predictor of college performance is high school grades, not passion for learning or EC talents. Consequently, the type of people whom you describe will be able to get into some college (because the U.S. has thousands of colleges, including many with minimal admission standards), but are very unlikely to get into top ranked colleges. </p>

<p>Now if such students do something like excel at whatever college they get into, they may be able to transfer to a top ranked college because they would have demonstrated that they now have the maturity to do the work that is required to graduate from an excellent college.</p>

<p>Remember, virtually all colleges will require you to take some classes that don't particularly interest you, so if you only do well when you're fascinated by something or if you prefer to learn completely on your own, you aren't showing the personality characteristics needed to graduate from college. It takes more than being intelligent.</p>

<p>I also haven't seen any colleges that claim to be looking for "edgy" students.</p>

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<p>"The best predictor of college performance is high school grades, not passion for learning or EC talents."</p>

<p>Not neccesarily. Check the transfer board there are plenty of students who did not do well in high school but have excelled in college. College is a completely different environment. This is also why some kids who did well in high school flunk or drop out of college. High school is just not the right environment for some people just like college is not always the right environment for other people.</p>

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<p>"Not neccesarily. Check the transfer board there are plenty of students who did not do well in high school but have excelled in college."</p>

<p>Sure, there are some people who excel in college despite having poor grades in h.s. There are exceptions to every rule. However, in general, the best predictor of college grades is h.s. grades.</p>

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<p>I agree - doing well in an EC however is a great way to back up those good grades. If you're nationally ranked in something, it's pretty clear that you're able to excel in high areas when you need/want to. </p>

<p>I think Northstarmom is right though, fortunately for many, and possibly unfortunately for you, the transcript is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the app.</p>

<p>By the way, Northstarmom, thank you for those near 6,000 posts!</p>

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<p>Loren Pope wrote about this in his book, actually. He compared colleges to a hospital. You don't judge a hospital based on whom it admits- rather, you judge it based on what it does to those admitted. Many colleges take B or C high school students and give them an education and experiences equal or similar to the more popular CC colleges. I know I did more outside the classroom last year than in most of high school, at least. College grades count more for junior transfers than sophomore transfers.</p>

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<p>Colleges like students who take risks but then do well :)</p>

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<p>FYI, both of my sons -- 18, 22-- are "edgy" by your definition. In h.s.. both took by their own choice rigorous academic loads and performed far below their capabilities. They each had exceptional academic and service-related ECs, extremely high scores.</p>

<p>Older S was accepted to 2 tier 1 schools, and happily went to a tier 2 school that gave him a full merit scholarship based on his unusual EC and incredible accomplishments in it. He continued to pursue that academically based EC in college, got a regional award for it, made many friends in that activity -- and flunked out. Hasn't been back to school since. He continue to live an "edgy" life while avidly pursuing his EC interests and working whatever jobs he finds.</p>

<p>Younger S is taking a gap year with Americorps, which will allow him to dive in fully to do things related to his fave EC. (We had suggested that older S do this with his fave EC, but he refused). He is having a wonderful time. In h.s., he almost didn't graduate because he kept being late for his first period class. He likes what he's doing now so much that he goes in early and stays late -- cheerfully. The staff has to virtually order him to take some time off sometimes. Just over the summer, I've seen him grow so much in maturity as well as knowing about what truly interest him. Due to his grades, his dad and I tell him that after Americorps, he must stay home and commute to college, but if he does well, he can transfer, and from what I know of college admissions, if succeeds up to his academic capabilities, his college grades combined with his high school and post high school EC accomplishments would put him in line for top colleges -- if he chooses to do that.</p>

<p>So, my advice is that if you truly want to go to a better college than right now you'd get into, take a gap year. Pursue a productive EC or something like planned travel that you work, save and pay for. Use that time to learn about yourself and your interests and to develop responsibility. After that, spend a year or 2 at any college that you can get into, achieve up to your capabilities, and if you want to transfer, then there will be better colleges that will welcome you.</p>

<p>Right now, though, odds are very slim that you'd get into the type of very competitive colleges that you may wish to.</p>

<p>Not everyone smart is ready for college right after h.s. This particularly is true of males, who tend to take a little longer to settle down and focus. </p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>Thank you for sharing that, Northstarmom. I do realize that I would need a high college GPA to show academic promise. It's funny... when I was younger, I never understood those boys who were too laidback. Of course, I understand now because I ended up becoming one of them. However, I don't know if I could be classified as a "late-bloomer" because I bloomed and then kind of withered but still retained a fighting spirit. My GPA dropped from 4.0 UW in freshman year to 3.1.</p>

<p>Duke doesn't use "edgy" to mean risk-takers (they use "straight edge" to classify angular students). However, this paragraph hints that it still wants students who've experienced "bumps."</p>

<p>"We want some bumps. We want some students who are well-rounded, some with sharp edges. We want people who are not afraid to undertake things that are messy, complex, and extremely difficult to do well—because they love it. We like students who already know what it means to succeed and those who know what it means to reach and not succeed and reach again. We like students who make intelligent and interesting mistakes, students who understand that only in risking failure do we become stronger, better, and smarter." </p>

<p>-Christoph Guttentag, Dean of Admissions</p>

<p>One of my favorite quotes sounds similar to the last sentence in that paragraph: "Ideas do not have to be correct in order to be good; it's only necessary that if they do fail, they do so in an interesting way." -- Robert Rosen</p>

<p>In this context, failed ideas are the "mistakes."
I don't know if I should continue to forge ahead with that quote in mind, but it certainly makes me feel better about my past. Because I did what I did for very good reasons.</p>

<p>Mallomar, I acknowledged your point in my initial post. You are so right, though.</p>

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<p>I think the gap year sounds like a great idea, but I don't have the financial means to do it. I wish I could travel to South Africa (where I have a lot of activist friends), Sweden, or rural China, but it would cost a lot of money.</p>

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<p>"The best predictor of college performance is high school grades, not passion for learning or EC talents."</p>

<p>I'm sorry but I think that's a bunch of shiitake. College is where performance matters. Courses are often found where homework is only 10% of the grade and exams are weighted 90%. Every high school I have been to never had such a weigh system so focused on exam preparation. Haven't you ever wondered why some vals end up getting a 1200/1600 on the SATs but they are ranked in <1% of the school? There's obvious grade inflation and preference choice given. Again look at the dropout level at college. First day of class, the parking lot is full of students. 2 weeks into the semester some drop out. 8 weeks in, more drop out. 14 weeks in, a small fraction is left. And the cycle repeats itself year after year. High school students don't drop out nearly as fast. It takes years for a 1000 entering freshman high school class to fall to 400. Whereas in college a school capable of having 10000 students to start and drop to 5000 by the end of a 16 week semester.</p>

<p>That just speaks of the rigor of college education. Its even said that united states colleges are top tier when compared with the rest of the world but our high schools lack the quality of education they deserve.</p>

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<p>"Haven't you ever wondered why some vals end up getting a 1200/1600 on the SATs but they are ranked in <1% of the school? "</p>

<p>SATs are a very weak predictor of college performance. The best predictor of how students do in college is their high school gpas. If you don't believe me, take the time to check the research as I've done.</p>

<p>SATs probably provide a good measure of intelligence plus how rigorous students' curricula are. </p>

<p>"Again look at the dropout level at college. First day of class, the parking lot is full of students. 2 weeks into the semester some drop out. 8 weeks in, more drop out. ...That just speaks of the rigor of college education. "</p>

<p>Not at all. It speaks to the fact that many students lack the discipline to study when their parents aren't forcing them, and when the local government isn't forcing them to attend school. They also lack the discipline to do things like read their textbooks. In many high schools, the teachers hand feed the lessons to the students. College isn't like that. </p>

<p>Most of the people who get into college have the ability to graduate. They don't because they simply don't show up to class or read their textbooks. They spend too much time partying or doing other things that aren't classwork. </p>

<p>When I taught college, I had many students who flunked out for the reasons that I mentioned. If they returned to college and buckled down to the academics, some of them not only graduated, but also graduated with honors.</p>

<p>My own older S with SATs in the 98th percentile flunked out of college because he partied too much, spent 30+ hours a week in his EC, didn't go to class and didn't even bother to sit for some exams. He was such a top student at the college that he went to, that they had posted a story about him on their website when he entered. He was in their honors program, and told me that his honors English class there had a couple of assignments that were like what he had been expected to do in his junior year IB English class. Believe me, his college curriculum wasn't too tough for him. Like many students who flunk out, he lacked self discipline when it came to academics.</p>