so I want to go to law school

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>This is my first post, so let me just start off by talking a little about myself. I'm attending Penn State University this year, which is not prestigious by any means, but recognized nonetheless. I never tried to get into another school because I just didn't care; my GPA in high school was probably a high C (gasp!), although my SAT scores were relatively high (1250 on the first ones) considering my complete lack of preparation, concern, and a calculator. I did not come from a family who thought straight A's were the meaning of life, for better or for worse, and took advantage of that. Instead of sitting in my room studying my textbooks I took on a broader sense of education by traveling the world, reading controversial books, and learning life lessons by making serious mistakes. Anyway, you get the idea.</p>

<p>So the first four semesters went poorly; my GPA was .. wait for it.. a 1.8. But then something happened, an epiphany if you will. I took a summer Psychology class with an excellent professor and I began learning and took the class very seriously and breezed through with an A. So there I was, starting the semester with a wealth of knowledge about biology, politics, religion, economics - you name it. </p>

<p>Its now the end of the semester and I have secured a 4.0. So now what? I did perfectly in school yet my GPA is going to be a 2.25. This kinda sucks. It is only now that I have begun thinking about my future; a future that no longer includes a shadowy life of crime. Ouch!</p>

<p>So now I have narrowed it down to two things that would begin to fulfill one of two ultimate goals I have in life:</p>

<p>1) Law school. My GPA sucks, so I don't want to get my hopes up.. but at the same time, I have no doubt I could score very close to perfectly on the LSATs. Not to mention, it will probably take me five years to finish my four-year Psychology degree. My papers and writing skills have all received overtly positive comments from professors. I feel like this could help me, but only so much. I've been doing some reading and it seems that the 25% GPA for the PSU law college is 3.02-3.11 (conflicting figures). This will be difficult, but I think its doable. Do you think that when a law school looks at a college transcript, a strong finish is more important than a consistently mediocre GPA? Furthermore, if I started off at Penn State for law, would it be possible to finish at a more prestigious school if I was doing really well?</p>

<p>2) Graduate school for a Ph.D. in Psychology. I would love this, but law school is my dream.</p>

<p>Edit: Oh! And is there anything I can do to get my GPA up besides continually doing well and going for an extra couple semesters? I probably will go for more anyway, though.</p>

<p>I apologize if you see my post as laden with hubris, that is not what I meant for it to be. I am simply an outsider to the majority group here.</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

2

<p>Does Penn State allow you to retake classes that you received a low grade in? The school I work at allows students to retake classes and the highest grade is used in gpa calculations. Although both grades remain on your transcript and you only receive credit for one course.</p>

<p>I think grade improvement is always considered. Many students do poorly their first year, or at least not as good as the following years.</p>

<p>I think an "epiphany" is actually looked at highly. Congrats to you. Ideally, this is what the college experience should do.</p>

<p>My understanding is that law school admittance is weighted heavily toward the LSAT. So if you do very well on the LSAT and your grades improved significantly, you should get into a decent law school.</p>

<p>I have no idea about law school tranfers.</p>

3

<p>"I'm attending Penn State University this year, which is not prestigious by any means, but recognized nonetheless."</p>

<p>Penn State University Park is a very good school. If you went to a branch campus I understand, but University Park is a top 15 public university. </p>

<p>You are probably not getting into law school with a 2.25 unless you get an almost perfect score on the lsat, which is highly highly unlikely(as many people go in thinking they will do really well, and most do not). I am not the sugar coating type and your attitude towards Penn State, obviously not having taken advantage of the opportunities it provides, makes me even less inclined to be so. My negative attitude is not biasing my opinion on your chances, though, as a 2.25 will make it nearly impossible.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, you will be competing with people that have worked hard towards law school or a Ph. D in Psychology the 6 years and have the grades, internships, scores, etc... to prove their determination. You may have wanted to consider your dreams a little earlier, as one good semester does not offset 6 years of mediocrity. Some may say this is brutal, but it's the truth.</p>

4

<p>Read a little closer my friend, I have two and a half semesters to go. Apparently, your beloved Penn State is lacking in the reading comprehension department. I did not say it was a bad school, just not prestigious. And nothing you can say will change that.</p>

<p>Ahem, but getting back onto the subject, graduate school is not what I'm worried about. I have no doubts about that. If one were to read my post with diligence, as well as intelligence, it would become apparent that up to ~3.0-3.1 is possible.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, mediocrity is not what I'm about. During the first four semesters, I personally "entrepreneured" over $100,000. Try making that as a Penn State graduate.</p>

<p>morrismm: I spoke with the advisers and they do not. Thank you very much for your positive reply :) :)</p>

5

<p>Even a 3.0-3.1 is going to be a significant handicap in the law school admission process. The upward trend could help a bit, and a great LSAT score could offset it, but only a little. There are law schools who will take you, but it's impossible to predict which ones til you have an LSAT score. </p>

<p>And law schools aren't necessarily interested in people who were "entrepreneur-ing" at the expense of their grades. They'd rather have someone who didn't entrepreneur anything and got good grades--or, ideally, someone who managed both.</p>

6

<p>I am no expert, jsut a Mom with a son applying to law school in a year or so.</p>

<p>So much on CC is speculation. Only an admission person can answer so many questions on all the threads and topics.</p>

<p>My suggestion to you is to make an appt to speak to someone in the law school admissions at various schools. Penn State and your local universities over winter break. Ask for their advice. Tell them you hope to do well on the LSAT. Tell them about your entrepreneuring venture, GPA, etc. They can provide you with good advice. I believe you have to write an essay and you can include all this information. You may get positive feedback about your chances (and need to be choosier about where you apply). Also, it may help to work and apply several years down the line. </p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

7

<p>terroh8er
"Read a little closer my friend, I have two and a half semesters to go. Apparently, your beloved Penn State is lacking in the reading comprehension department. I did not say it was a bad school, just not prestigious. And nothing you can say will change that"</p>

<p>I said your last 6 six, considering your first two years of college and four years of high school as mediocre. I saw your 4.0 for this one semester, hence why I said you are not able to turn around the bad six years in one semester. I guess the branch campuses don't worry too much about comprehension, but it is something that is covered in the classes at University Park from the beginning. University Park is a top 15 public university and is a prestigious institution. I'm sorry that you obviously don't understand that.</p>

<p>Well, you are not lacking in confidence. Hopefully the law schools/graduate schools will ignore everything else and base your admission on your confident essay.</p>

8

<p>LSAT cures all. I had a 3.1 in college. Not much of an upward trend either, from 2.8 to like a 3.4. Nothing significant. Ended up at a T10 with a 170.</p>

9

<p>While it is true that a great LSAT can make up for a lot of deficiencies, I would take a practice test before you talk about how you think you could get close to perfect. Then subtract about 5 points from that score. That is probably closer to what you will actually get on test day. With a 1250 on the SAT, I would definitely take a prep course if you are really serious about doing well on the LSAT. Don't be fooled, the LSAT is not the SAT. You shouldn't go into it cold expecting to ace it. Doing well takes months of prep. From your post, you don't seem disciplined enough to do it, but this is my only window into your mind. I hope I am wrong, and I wish you the best of luck.</p>

<p>And yes, you can transfer to another school if you are doing really well at yours.</p>

<p>Also, the retaking for a higher grade advice is wrong. LSAC compiles their own GPA, and it takes both if you do that. So the lower grade will always be there to hurt you. You can't do a thing about it. Also keep in mind that most people see a .1 or so drop in their GPA when it is compiled by the LSAC, so keep that in mind.</p>

10

<p>Sorry Bosque--the retaking for a higher grade advise is NOT WRONG. As you stated "LSAC compiles their own GPA, and it takes both if you do that. So the lower grade will always be there " BUT SO WILL THE HIGHER GRADE.</p>

<p>As I stated, at the school I work, only the higher grade is calculated in gpa but both grades are reported on the transcript. I indicated that this may not be the practice of other schools. I was not indicating you should use this as a way to try to hide a grade. I was just suggesting how some schools allow this as a way of showing maturation or "epiphany."</p>

11

<p>bosque isn't fully wrong. if you have the option to retake and get a B+, or take a completely different course for an A, you def wana take the completely different course. bosque is right in that retaking won't help you at all. </p>

<p>but yeah dude frankly 1250 isn't a staggeringly high score. but LSAT is a learnable test, much more so than the SAT.
and don't bank on transferring up. Everyone at a lower rank school hopes of getting into the top 10%, for job prospects or for transfers. hate to state the obvious, but 90% of them fail.</p>

12

<p>Somehow we are not communicating. If you take a course and get a C, retake and get an A 1) if an average is used, it is a B--better than a C, 2) if the higher is used, A is better than a C, 3)if i school only uses the first grade, you should not have retaken.</p>

<p>Taking a completely different course is not replacing a class grade or averaging it. Taking a completely different course is also new credits. It has nothing to do w/ what we are discussing here. Obviously getting better grades in subsequent classes will improve your gpa.</p>

13

<p>That is what I said. For the LSAC, retaking a class doesn't replace the previous grade in your GPA like it does at most schools. Rather, it takes both the old and new grades separately. So no, it won't benefit him really. He would get just as much benefit from doing a new class he knows he can get an A in. Sure you could argue that getting a better grade in the class shows growth, but at the same time you could argue that they could only get a better grade after doing it twice.</p>

<p>So no, retaking the same class is NOT going to help, at least not any more than just taking more classes would. LSAC is not going to replace the grade. I really don't see why you are having trouble wrapping your head around this.</p>

14

<p>morrism: </p>

<p>Here's the point. Lets say you took Intro to Poli Sci and got a C. You can (1) retake the course and (theoretically) get an A OR (2) you can take a DIFFERENT course and (theoretically) get an A. If you want to go to LS, the second choice is usually the wiser one.</p>

<p>If Intro to Poli Sci is a 3 credit course, LSDAS will count 3 credits of C and 3 credits of A; it will NOT average them into 3 credits of a B. So, in terms of GPA, either choice one or two (assuming the different course is also 3 credits) will give you the same gpa. But it's more impressive to get an A in a different course than to get one in the SAME course you are taking for the second time.</p>

15

<p>I disagree with Posts #3 & #5 above. You can get into an ABA accredited law school with a GPA of 2.5 or above and a moderate (above 150) LSAT score. There are about 194 ABA fully accredited law schools in the US. While it is unlikely that you will be admitted to a Top 30 law school, you should be admitted to a third or fourth tier school with a 2.5 GPA and an above average--over 150 out of a possible 180 score--LSAT. Whether or not you survive three years of law school & pass the bar exam are separate issues, but there are enough law schools out there in need of paying students that you should get a chance.
With a cavalier 1250/1600 SAT I score, your more mature & disciplined self may score in the 160s on the LSAT with adequate preparation. An LSAT of 160 or above is good enough for approximately 155 to 160 of the 194 fully ABA accredited law schools. LSAT & GPA are the two most important factors regarding potential law school admission.</p>

16

<p>but generally you probably don't want to be attending a law school that will accept you with 2.25 and 160</p>

17

<p>Here's what I suggest if you want to go to law school:</p>

<p>1: take some summer classes or stay an extra semester or two to pad your GPA -- maybe minor in something. also think about taking courses that are likely to get you high grades.</p>

<p>2: study like mad for the LSAT and get the highest score possible.</p>

<p>3: come back here for advice when you actually have an LSAT score. no one here can give you an accurate prediction on your law school odds until you have an LSAT score.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
Does Penn State allow you to retake classes that you received a low grade in? The school I work at allows students to retake classes and the highest grade is used in gpa calculations. Although both grades remain on your transcript and you only receive credit for one course.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LSAC will count both grades into its GPA, both the retake and original grades. It does not matter if the kid retakes the class or takes new classes. Frankly, I think it'd be stupid to retake classes when the first grade would count anyway.</p>

<p>To the OP, if I were you, I would gun for a 175+ on the LSAT to try to make some upper tier 1 schools. Unfortunately you are pretty much completely locked out of the top 14 schools if you maintain your current GPA. Even with a 180, you would have a really hard time getting a single T-14 to take you unless you get significant work experience and apply for Northwestern. I would try to bring it up to at least a 3.0 and gun for at the very least 172 on the LSAT. You might get a few T-14 that way, even if you have to stick it out on the waitlists.</p>

19

<p>Thank you for the replies, especially the kind ones!!</p>

<p>jec, my friend, I am sorry. Penn State is a good school, I didn't mean it like that. But prestigious? Come on, any bone head can go to Penn State or at least graduate with a Penn State degree. To me that takes away from the prestige. But you're right, some majors are controlled and very competitive, and graduating with said degree may have a greater deal of distinction. You are missing the point of how it was said though; it simply meant that I did not go to Harvard or another Ivy League, so having a GPA as low as I do makes the situation more difficult. On the other issue, lets agree to disagree here, as I don't think that law schools are going to be looking at the scores I received when I still went outside for recess. Perhaps I misunderstood because the claim is was so blatantly erroneous and misinformed. Sure, one semester does not make up for it, but then we can use the forward looking statements in my original post and some elementary math to figure out that I still have many more semesters to go. It said in my original post that I'll be going for five years. That means.. well.. let me do the math for you. Two semesters in each year, and I'm going for five years, so that's ten semesters (you can even count it on your fingers, there's no excuse!). So then you take that ten, put a wittle teeny weenie minus sign in there, and the five semesters I've already gone. Now, I'll save you the hours of frustration and tell you that I actually have <em>five</em> semesters to go. That's half way. So no, my GPA will not be a 2.25 my whole life. Oh and by the way, I'm not at a branch campus.. I live on Vairo Blvd, come by sometime! ;)</p>

<p>On to poster #5.. I agree with you, and I know that, especially since I got locked up on conspiracy distribution charges for making said money. I know what you're thinking now though: "Damn felony charges? This kid won't be able to work at the bookstore for gods sake." Well, no, I got out of it thanks my finesse under pressure and basic knowledge of the law, not to mention a top-tier lawyer that I hired. I don't even have to check the "I have been arrested for a drug crime before" box. My roots run deep in the law business. Not only have I done it, I did it, I lived it.. ;) The point of me saying that was to silence the naysayers who believe my ambition exceeds my talent.</p>

<h1>6, crazed - I thank you so much for your reply. When I go back to school in a couple of weeks, I'm going straight to the law admissions building in nice clothes and a touch of class :) I figure this is the best way for me to get an idea of what to expect, and maybe, just maybe, getting a foot in the door with a person in admissions. The law school I think would be best for me would be Dickinson. Its well-recognized, a part of Penn State (which is oh-so-prestigious [hehe]), and the GPA requirements, as per internet sources, show that they have the lowest of the top 100 law schools. I'm thinking that because I went to Penn State for undergraduate, they might be a little more sympathetic for my low grades at the beginning. It would only be a short walk for them to speak with my professors and ask them how much I've improved and my attitude has changed.</h1>

<p>You are absolutely right about CC being full of speculation. In fact, I think a lot of the students here are spoiled brats who really aren't that smart, but spend six hours a day studying their textbooks and crying to their teacher when they don't get an A. They wouldn't know a bird from a basketball. </p>

<p>There were a lot of helpful replies here though. You're right km7hill, I don't want to get anywhere near a law school that would accept me with a 2.25 GPA. However, like I said in the previous posts I should have at least a 3.0, possibly up to a 3.2, but probably in the middle. I just don't want to spend a year studying the LSATs (I would if I meant I could get in) only to find out that the schools wont accept me because of my GPA. What a letdown that would be. </p>

<p>Would I be correct in saying that the best course of action may be to get a Master's degree in Psychology? </p>

<p>My purpose in posting here is that I feel as if my school is ignoring me because of my current cumulative GPA. I want to do something: an internship, tutor, research, something! I don't care if I get paid. I just want to get involved but I feel like they treat me like I'm a degenerate idiot because of my GPA. I don't know what to do that would help me with my chances of being successful in further education, because I was never interested in it. I am now, more than ever, though.</p>

20

<p>I began my junior year with a 2.0 and scored a 3.6 for my last two years, with some Bs in core courses, but all As in my major. And this was in the days of the "gentlemen's C" when a 3.6 was a good gradepoint (but a 2.8 was more typical of a college graduate). Some grad schools and potential employers treated me like a star and some (including Civil Service) did not. However, I received both good job offers from prestigious employers and good assistantships and fellowships to good grad schools. As recently as the year 2000, when my company merged with another company, I had to list my high school GPA (from 46 years earlier) on the job reapplication - so know that your younger years will always matter to someone. And there will be others who only care what you have done lately.</p>