<p>Some questions that I have been asked lately by my parents are:</p>
<li><p>How much more money do you get with an MBA compared with only one degree undergraduate? or masters?</p></li>
<li><p>What is an MBA? Does it apply to all classes?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it easy or hard to get? I hear alot of people that says its not even worth getting if you have a computer engineering major/ computer science major?</p></li>
<li><p>If I choose to get an MBA? should I major in CS or CmpE?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>There are a wide range of MBA programs so those are impossible questions. The thing to keep in mind is that many programs don't improve your prospects much. That said, a top 10 or 15 program improves prospects greatly for most (If you're a Harvard grad with a great job in an organization with growth potential you may not need the MBA).</p>
<p>It all depends on your undergraduate experience/degree, and what kind of industry you're interested in working in. Many companies will pay for their employees to get their MBA at night through an executive MBA program. If you were able to work for a few years and get in with a company who would provide you with such an experience, I think that would be the best way to go about it. That way, it's enhancing your resume and capacity for business-related skills to help you in the future, but it's not like you're spending a fortune to get the degree without knowing what kind of job prospects you'll get out of it. </p>
<p>That being said, if you're unsure of the next step to take in your life and career, getting an MBA certainly wouldn't hurt, unless you were already in serious debt or something.</p>
<p>see... the thing that bothers me is that... why would people want to pay someone to get taught how a to lead a company or administrate something when they could learn by themselves... wouldnt that be a better choice?? experience instead of just book??? idk...</p>
<p>Because they are being taught by experts in the field, while gaining exposure to a network and opportunities that would otherwise be off limits to them or at least, much more difficult to attain. The formal textbook teaching is a small part of the overall experience. By your logic, why should higher education exist at all?</p>
<p>^I agree...itoushiro's argument doesn't even make sense. I could have never went to college and saved thousands of dollars. Saved myself the time of not studying those subjects that doesn't apply to my chosen career and went out to find a job. But, it doesn't work that way anymore. You need a Bachelor's just to answer someone's phones, copy their papers, type memos, and sort mail. What is the world coming to?</p>
<p>actually the funny thing is that from what i heard... the finance and banking businesses that hire people never got their diploma...most people only like 1-2 years top of college education and they got internship and went from there....</p>
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<blockquote> <p>why would people want to pay someone to get taught how a to lead a company or administrate</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>A key reason people attend a full-time MBA program is for the personal contacts/connections they gain from intermingling with classmates. If you're going into the business/management line of work, "who you know" is as important as "what you know."</p>
<p>To answer your question "why an MBA?", here are some top reasons people get an MBA:</p>
<p>1) change line of work completely (i.e. compsci or engineering major wants to move from technical day-to-day work, into management consulting, product marketing, or business financing) -- earning an MBA from a top program can get you hired right into these other lines of work.</p>
<p>2) required for job promotion -- to be considered for some job description/reqs, the candidate may be required to have an MBA. In this case, if you're in good standing with your employer, the employer may pay you to attend a part-time MBA program, in return for staying with the company 3-4 years. Little risk to you (since company pays for the degree)</p>
<p>3) "because they can" Some people like to collect degrees, and the MBA is another nice shiny diploma to hang on the wall (and very expensive piece of paper!)</p>
<p>As for money, getting an MBA doesn't give you an automatic raise. Generally, people switching from technical-positions (computer programmer, electrical engineer) into management/consulting will get a nifty raise when starting their second career. I've heard that the people who get MBAs because their employer required it for a promotion, tend to get less of a raise (but that's offset since the employee didn't pay out-of-pocket for B-school.) Finally, the people who get MBAs 'because they can', and who don't do anything with the new degree, obviously get NO raise. The extra shiny piece of paper may bring other benefits, such as sleeping better at night knowing that he holds an MBA, and the next guy doesn't. :)</p>
<p>You have to ask yourself what you plan to do with your career? Are you a more technical person, who'd prefer to stay on the technical-side of things? Then you probably shouldn't worry about an MBA until you've worked 4-5 years into your career. At that point, you can re-evaluate whether you're interested into 'moving up' into the management ranks of the same line of work, or 'moving out' to a different field (like consulting). Or maybe you're happy to be a level-3 CS programmer your whole life! no shame in that</p>
<p>Salary-info is unreliable, because MBA-graduates go off and do vastly different things (some sectors pay more than others.)</p>
<p>You might want to add to the list the fact that MBA program adcoms have the luxury of digging more deeply than do HR departments. So the population of those accepted to selective MBA programs is significantly different from those applying. By only hiring from those who have been accepted/graduated from selective programs the firms are drawing from a superior pool of candidates. There are well known anecdotes of people applying, getting accepted, and then going to the job market with their acceptance letters alone.</p>
<p>Add to that the signaling value of actually paying up-front and attending.</p>
<p>A great deal of the value of an undergrad degree is that it demonstrates that you were able to fairly consistently jump through the hoops required to complete the degree. Better grades are probably more strongly correlated with consistency of effort and the ability to delay gratification than brains. To graduate from a selective program you must have:</p>
<p>1) Done reasonably well as an undergrad.
2) Shown some promise for a few years of your professional life.
3) Done reasonably well on an IQ test (the GMAT).
4) Signaled your private belief in your own value by paying ~$50K out of pocket and forgoing a couple of years of income.</p>
<p>So even if the MBA itself added little value over what you could have learned on your own, these four would lead any rational person to assume that graduates of selective MBA programs are far likelier than the general population of job seekers to be superior employees.</p>
<p>I'm not arguing that the education and networking are of no value, though others have done so. I'm just pointing out that regardless it's economically rational for firms to favor graduates of selective programs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are well known anecdotes of people applying, getting accepted, and then going to the job market with their acceptance letters alone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have never heard of these supposedly well-known anecdotes. </p>
<p>Frankly, I don't see how such a tactic would work anyway, as what would stop people from then drafting their own fake (but highly authentic-appearing) acceptance letter? After all, there are plenty of, uh, 'companies' who produce highly convincing fake driver's licenses and passports, and those are clearly far harder to produce than would be a fake B-school acceptance letter, and furthermore, business schools won't confirm or deny to a third party whether somebody actually was accepted or not, and so employers have no way of actually knowing whether an acceptance letter that somebody claims to have is actually authentic. However, schools will confirm whether somebody actually is an alumni. </p>
<p>Think of it this way. I know for a fact that B-schools don't exactly follow highly rigorous and exacting procedures when they actually publish the admit letters. They just generally hand some low-level staffer the final admissions list, and it is that person's job to draft however many admit letters. I've seen this happen; it's not like they're using some highly peculiar printer with highly peculiar paper stock. They're just using standard university letterhead, on a regular office printer. Hence, if you have a copy of an authentic admit letter and you have some blank official university letterhead (which, trust me, isn't that hard to get), you can generate boatloads of fake admit letters. You pay one of these black-market companies a few thousand dollars and they can surely produce for you such an admit letter that is practically indistinguishable from the real thing (similar to how you can buy from these same companies a fake driver's license that is practically indistinguishable from the real thing).</p>
<p>One way that the strategy posited in post #9 could work is to matriculate at a top business school, then withdraw as soon as feasible: ideally before the first term even starts, or if that's not possible, then after the first term. That way, your name will be officially entered into the student database, and B-schools will confirm that you really were a former student (albeit not a graduate). You will also have full access to the alumni database. Furthermore, and probably most importantly, most schools will allow you to return to complete your degree within a set period of time. </p>
<p>I know a girl who has already withdrawn from Harvard Business School twice to pursue other endeavors. It's actually a cunningly clever strategy: if her business endeavors work out, then she doesn't really need an MBA. If they don't, oh well, she just goes back to Harvard. In any case, she has a slot reserved for her. Financiers would say that she maintains 'option value' of returning to school.</p>
<p>But, like I said, what I cannot see is somebody actually trying to shop around just the acceptance letter from a B-school, because, after all, how exactly would you know that it's genuine? Schools aren't going to confirm who they admitted. {They'll confirm who matriculated, but not who was admitted.} It's not that hard to falsify an admit letter that is indistinguishable from the real thing: if they can do it for driver's licenses or even passports, surely they can do it for admit letters that lack watermarks, holograms, or even the most basic of anti-counterfeit measures. Surely the people here who were admitted to top B-schools would agree that it wouldn't be that hard to generate a fake letter.</p>
<p>The idea that someone who was admitted to an MBA program who never entered or completed the program somehow can benefit from that admission letter is ludicrous. At the very least, it's not a plan or tactic that can be recommended to most people. </p>
<p>Having said that, I know that sometimes HR departments ask for job applicants' test scores (SAT, LSAT, GMAT) as a sign of intelligence (the scores correlate highly with IQ test scores). But they are more likely to question why you didn't stick to your plan to enter the MBA program, and so you may not get any net advantage from your "acceptance."</p>
<p>As for the larger question whether an MBA is "worth it," there is some skill acquisition in an MBA program (accounting, finance, statistical analysis, etc.), but the amount depends on where you're coming from, i.e., what kind of previous education and work experience you come in with. It also depends on which MBA programs you get into and what kind of job market you end up playing in (local vs. national vs. international).</p>
<p>I know of plenty of really smart, ambitious, hardworking, and lucky individuals who have gone damn far in their careers with just an undergraduate degree (e.g., Larry Page--cofounder of Google). And some who never got any college degree (e.g., Steve Jobs--cofounder of Apple). I'm not talking just about people who were great hucksters and snake-oil salesmen. Members of the executive committee of Price Waterhouse Coopers have reached that with just a BA degree (at least in the recent past).</p>
<p>But nowadays for the vast majority of people who want, say, a business/finance career, the opportunities are often structured by those along-the-way certificates ("certifications") such as law degrees or MBAs. And as has been noted above, your willingness and ability to take two years of advanced training and, more generally, socialization to the language and norms of business or management, may say a lot about your ability and commitment to this career line, so a future employer will be more convinced that it should put resources and confidence in you.</p>
<p>As has also been pointed out on this thread, however, not all MBA degrees are of equal value in signaling your ability, especially on a national/international scale. Try to get into the most highly ranked MBA program you can, taking into account as well that they may have different strengths or associated programs (such as dual degree programs) that can help you to move in your intended career direction.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know a girl who has already withdrawn from Harvard Business School twice to pursue other endeavors. It's actually a cunningly clever strategy: if her business endeavors work out, then she doesn't really need an MBA. If they don't, oh well, she just goes back to Harvard.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't think that you are allowed to defer at Harvard. Or did she actually attend or pay a deposit or first semester's fees? </p>
<p>She also may have worn out her welcome at Harvard at this point. I have a friend that turned down Harvard's acceptance two years in a row and the third year they turned him down.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You will also have full access to the alumni database.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure how useful this will be once the alums learn that you didn't graduate or in fact, didn't even attend.</p>
<p>This is not a deferral. She actually attended for the first semester. Then she left to pursue one of her endeavors. Came back for her second semester. Now she's gone again. I don't know if she will be back. </p>
<p>On a more famous level, Steve Ballmer attended 1 year of Stanford GSB and then dropped out to join his old college buddy's company, Microsoft. I don't think Ballmer regrets his decision.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure how useful this will be once the alums learn that you didn't graduate or in fact, didn't even attend.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is still extremely useful. The fact is, the alums don't really care all that much whether you graduated. The mere fact that you got in is usually good enough for them. Now, of course, obviously much of this depends on the industry we're talking about. If we're talking about management consulting or investment banking, then, sure, it matters whether somebody actually completed the MBA or not. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if we're talking about things like venture capital, private equity, hedge funds, or, above all, entrepreneurship, it doesn't really matter. They don't really care. Entrepreneurship in particular is chock full of people who dropped out of school (undergrad or grad) to pursue their businesses. You don't really need the degree, you just need the contacts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On the other hand, if we're talking about things like venture capital, private equity, hedge funds, or, above all, entrepreneurship, it doesn't really matter. They don't really care. Entrepreneurship in particular is chock full of people who dropped out of school (undergrad or grad) to pursue their businesses. You don't really need the degree, you just need the contacts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Except why would people who don't have a kinship with their school go out of their way to help someone also from the school. Contacts from an alumni database aren't going to do you much good with the people who don't really care about the school and never return your message.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On a more famous level, Steve Ballmer attended 1 year of Stanford GSB and then dropped out to join his old college buddy's company, Microsoft. I don't think Ballmer regrets his decision.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is an unrelated example of what we're discussing. This is him connecting with someone he already knew from UG. Someone who dropped out of Stanford who is combing through the Stanford GSB directory five years later and connecting to an alum he's never met is one thing that I would grant you if it actually went on, but your example isn't remotely close to that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Except why would people who don't have a kinship with their school go out of their way to help someone also from the school. Contacts from an alumni database aren't going to do you much good with the people who don't really care about the school and never return your message.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, that's true, but that would happen regardless of whether you graduated or not. The assumption is that we are talking about a school (like HBS or Stanford GSB) where many alumni do care about the school and are willing to talk to old alumni. In fact, that is one of the most attractive features of schools like that: they introduce you to an alumni network who is willing to take your meetings. </p>
<p>But I do agree that if we are talking about a school where the alumni network is not vibrant, then that is a different story. </p>
<p>
[quote]
This is an unrelated example of what we're discussing. This is him connecting with someone he already knew from UG. Someone who dropped out of Stanford who is combing through the Stanford GSB directory five years later and connecting to an alum he's never met is one thing that I would grant you if it actually went on, but your example isn't remotely close to that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My point with Ballmer is simply that people can and will drop out of business school because they discover an interesting opportunity during the interim.</p>
<p>But if you want more targeted examples, how about this one. One of my friends went to HBS, then withdrew after the first semester to start his own tech company with his friends. Despite not having graduated, he was still able to set up numerous meetings with venture capitalists and angel investors who did graduate from HBS, using the HBS network. They didn't really care that he had dropped out. To them, the fact that he was a former HBS student (although not a graduate) was good enough for them to at least return his phone calls and set up meetings, and that is how was able to secure funding. </p>
<p>The beautiful aspect of the strategy is that if things hadn't worked out with his startup, oh well, he would have just returned to Harvard. He has the option. His seat is reserved should he decide he needs it. </p>
<p>Look, the point simply is that actually graduating from these kinds of programs is not as important as many people seem to think, particularly when it comes to business transactions that are established over personal relationships (i.e. VC funding). What really matters to establish those relationships is the fact that you got in, not that you have the degree. Having the degree does matter if you want to work for large, formal companies such as McKinsey. But if that's not what you want to do, you may not really need the degree.</p>
<p>Sakky, it seems like you "know" a lot of people. Every time you make a point, you illustrate with an example with someone you know. You are a good writer, but your anecdotes are highly suspicious.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'll give you an example. I know a girl who graduated with a bachelor's in English.
[/quote]
[quote]
Let me give you an example. My brother went to Caltech
[/quote]
[quote]
I know a girl who has already withdrawn from Harvard Business School twice to pursue other endeavors.
[/quote]
[quote]
I know plenty of business PhD students and even plenty of business professors who don't know much about business and don't care to know
[/quote]
[quote]
I know a girl who worked in investment banking for several years and was offered full sponsorship to go to HBS.
[/quote]
[quote]
Let me explain. I know quite a few engineering students who, in their final semesters, just backfilled their schedules with all manners of humanities and soc-sci classes
[/quote]
</p>
<p>School connections are overrated. Yes, you can certainly network, but usually the people who can really be of help are the ones through you know through repeated personal contact, not those whose common thread with you is an alumni database especially with schools like HBS, Michigan whose yearly class are in the thousand.</p>
<p>I definitely don't want to give the impression that I think school connections are not important , especially the top ones, but I think the alumni of top schools are given better access to top jobs, opportunities etc because it is presumed that they have already been prescreened. (by school adcoms)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know of plenty of really smart, ambitious, hardworking, and lucky individuals who have gone damn far in their careers with just an undergraduate degree (e.g., Larry Page--cofounder of Google).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Minor correction -- Larry Page entered Stanford's computer-science PhD program. He he stayed in the program to bump into Sergey Brin, another Stanford PhD student, and earned an M.S. degree. So I'd say that's more than just an "undergraduate degree."</p>
<p>Another famous enrollee in Stanford's PhD program also dropped out to work on his business idea -- Jerry Yang (former Yahoo CEO.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, it seems like you "know" a lot of people. Every time you make a point, you illustrate with an example with someone you know. You are a good writer, but your anecdotes are highly suspicious.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know a lot of people. That's what networking is all about, after all. </p>
<p>
[quote]
School connections are overrated. Yes, you can certainly network, but usually the people who can really be of help are the ones through you know through repeated personal contact, not those whose common thread with you is an alumni database especially with schools like HBS, Michigan whose yearly class are in the thousand.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Obviously repeated personal contact is the most valuable of all contacts. But it is also obviously true that you can have that with only a small group of people, as there is only a limited amount of time you have to get to know people well.</p>
<p>Hence, the next best thing is usually the casual acquaintance to be made through a shared experience, such as a common school alma mater. Sure, in some cases, you might get nothing. But in other cases, you might get an accepted lunch invite, which then turns into another name for you to contact, and so forth. </p>
<p>I'll give you (yet) another anecdote. One guy I know from HBS who started his own tech company just got venture capital funding through the alumni database. That is to say, he contacted some people through the database, and they were able to eventually put him in contact with a VC firm that agreed to fund him. Now, obviously, he still had to pitch his idea successfully. But he wouldn't have gotten funded at all if he never even got that meeting. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I definitely don't want to give the impression that I think school connections are not important , especially the top ones, but I think the alumni of top schools are given better access to top jobs, opportunities etc because it is presumed that they have already been prescreened. (by school adcoms)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Surely you are well aware that a major selling points - and arguably the most important selling point - of any top-ranked MBA program is the alumni network. Now, I can agree that maybe some of that can be attributed to marketing hype. But it's hard for me to believe that there is nothing to it at all. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I would argue that the shared experience of an MBA program gives you the opportunity to create that close, repeated personal contact of which you cited as being so important. For example, I know of 2 HBS girls who have decided to start their own company together after graduation, and are now pitching it to VC's. They never knew each other before HBS. But they were in the same section, in many of the same clubs, and now they're apartment roommates and close friends. None of this would have happened had they never gone to HBS.</p>